Move over Richmond, Dees in the firing line.

[mo64 5,478]

interesting that our midfield is one of (probably our major) poblem, and the biggest issue is lack of pace and finishing.

Shane Wakelin made the point on the radio this morning that pace (footspeed) is the most overrated aspect of football. It's quickness of mind that's important. And he pointed out that Geelong aren't a quick side, but move the ball quickly, which comes back to quickness of mind.

Neither McLean nor Jones had issues with their finishing skills in their formative years. I believe that alot of the problems that our midfield are having comes down to not playing instinctive or confident football. It's all handball, handball, handball when under pressure, and I don't think that that's the natural game of McLean, Jones or Moloney.

[1858 285]

Shane Wakelin made the point on the radio this morning that pace (footspeed) is the most overrated aspect of football. It's quickness of mind that's important. And he pointed out that Geelong aren't a quick side, but move the ball quickly, which comes back to quickness of mind.

Moe, that point you raise is a good one and Wakelin is in most part correct but having said that, making generalisations is always easier when Geelong is your model. What is missing from Wakelin's point and I suspect you don't appreciate is that pace can be over rated for most of the teams that have either good pace or middle of the road pace. Our problem is that we are just clinically too slow compared to most other teams - we are the sore thumb of the competition. Wakelin is making a reasonable observation between teams that have varying degrees of pace but are at least all at a required base level. Ball movement is indeed the superior facet than straight out leg speed but our problem is that we are so slow that every time we get the ball we are predictable because we can't mix up our game and all our mids know that the other mids are under the pump just as much as they are. We quite simply are paralyzed by our slow ground coverage and when the body is not able, the mind soon follows and this can hurt the entire team. Our mids are good in and under tryers but despite what many may think, our core 4 are not that strong body on body and this is the last thing we need when pace is amiss. Junior and Brock are not in it atm and Jones is left on his own without options and Moloney is servicable without excelling in any one area. Essendon have been widely seen as a one trick pony with their pace and because they are not as polished as say a geelong people tend to use the old axiom pace is over rated. Well as far as Essendon are concerned, they are in development like us (perhaps a year or so ahead) and given that they are still developing their game, the benefit of their pace as a string to their bow is priceless, the other areas of midfield development will come over time.

One more thing. McLean in his formative years is a completely different proposition to McLean now. He had more experienced players in the team around him a few years ago, whilst he has dropped off in pace the game has gone up in speed and competitiveness in the last two years.

[LITTLE STINGA 1]

Sheahan, Buckley and Shaw talking about the same topic on 3AW just now.

Some more interesting stats. Collingwood fielded a younger side than we did on Monday. 11 of our players, played in our last semi-final loss to Fremantle.

As Buckley said-and I reckon he would know just a little bit about the caper - if you keep putting down dismal losses to youth, then in the end all you do is give your young blokes excuses for losing. The very fabric of our club is where the problem is and it needs addressing quickly. Sheahan was right to pose the questions he did in his article and the stats demand answers.

Buckley is 100% right. This youth crap is exactly what it is CRAP especially when we do have plenty of experience at senior level our fabric is a joke. This week against Essendon will be win, lose or draw a defining moment for Bailey. If he does the usual IN: MILLER OUT: ROBBO then he might as well resign cause he has NOT got the balls to coach. He must ring in the changes and they must be all youth get rid of McDonald, Bell, Whelan and Rivers and start Green, McLean and Bruce on the bench. That will signal to the club that reputations mean nothing. The senior players have been playing on reputation far too long and it has to stop. The midfield has to change Valenti and McKenzie have to be given a go, the midfield hasn't changed at all since Bailey has been incharge.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Shane Wakelin made the point on the radio this morning that pace (footspeed) is the most overrated aspect of football. It's quickness of mind that's important. And he pointed out that Geelong aren't a quick side, but move the ball quickly, which comes back to quickness of mind.

Neither McLean nor Jones had issues with their finishing skills in their formative years. I believe that alot of the problems that our midfield are having comes down to not playing instinctive or confident football. It's all handball, handball, handball when under pressure, and I don't think that that's the natural game of McLean, Jones or Moloney.

Whether its overrated is debateable does not mean it is not important. Its only one aspect of the game. Geelong aren't a slow side either. But gee they are skillful and they move the ball quickly that way. They dont turn it over either. The issue with both McLean and Jones is their decision making and execution by hand or foot. It always has been with Jones from day 1. Part of McLeans problem is his lack of pace creates pressure on him and nullifies his disposal time. McLean, Jones and Moloney will have to lift their standard wont they.

1858 has nailed it regard to McLean and the pace of the game.

[Rogue 585]

The game hasn't changed dramatically between the time McLean was leading our best and fairest and now.

The notion that we're a young side is merely a crutch that is used by supporters to justify our poor performances in the past 18 months.

It's reality.

Ask Hawthorn or Carlton fans how they feel in retrospect.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Sheahan, Buckley and Shaw talking about the same topic on 3AW just now.

Some more interesting stats. Collingwood fielded a younger side than we did on Monday. 11 of our players, played in our last semi-final loss to Fremantle.

As Buckley said-and I reckon he would know just a little bit about the caper - if you keep putting down dismal losses to youth, then in the end all you do is give your young blokes excuses for losing. The very fabric of our club is where the problem is and it needs addressing quickly. Sheahan was right to pose the questions he did in his article and the stats demand answers.

I am sick to death of hearing about what might be, with 2 more top drafts, in 2010. I just want to see some steel in the MFC and I don't think as a supporter, that is too much to ask.

BTW, Mike Sheahan has a MFC Membership.

I am of the opininion that Bailey would push the "we are young, rebuilding and want to be competitive"line for a limited time. I expected that at the midway mark of this season that the bar would be raised and more demanded of the playing group. The signs leading up to the Queens Birthday supported this idea. Bailey has been less satisfied with honorable lossess and lamenting our inability to play four quarters.

I would suggest that coaching group is about to put the squeeze on the playing group. The statements won't necessarily be made in the media, but at the selection table.

I think the footy dept is currently going through a transition period, where honorable losses are no longer acceptable and apparent youth is no longer an nxcuse. It is a transition that has to happen. Eventually the losing mentality needs to be changed. IMO this remains Bailey's biggest challenge.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

I would suggest that coaching group is about to put the squeeze on the playing group. The statements won't necessarily be made in the media, but at the selection table.

I think the footy dept is currently going through a transition period, where honorable losses are no longer acceptable and apparent youth is no longer an nxcuse. It is a transition that has to happen. Eventually the losing mentality needs to be changed. IMO this remains Bailey's biggest challenge.

I hope you're right, but if what you predict is not going to happen, then, for mine, we need to re-set our focus on our draft picks for 2010.

Nathan Buckley has already publically said he wants to coach in 2010. If so, he should be one of our "priority draft picks". And before the naysayers shoot me down, yes Dean Bailey is a great bloke, but in my humble opinion he will not get this current group over the line, in time, before we self destruct.

In terms of the $$$$? It would be the best debt management program we could enter.

Things need to change in the footy department and soon.

[praha 11,100]

At the end of the first quarter I was really thinking, "We get such an awesome crowd and the best support we've had in ages, and we play like this. Typical!"

It was the same feeling I had when we played Freo about 4 years ago at the MCG. Decent crowd, with hardly any Freo fans and all red and blue. We played terribly, and the only time we made any noise was when they came onto the ground at the start.

http://forums.demonland.com/index.php?showtopic=15288

Check that thread out. Sheanan mentions that we AREN'T the youngest in the competition, and this poses as a problem. Yet he says we struggle in a lot of areas. Which is a catch-22. If you want to be young, you need to be bad before you can be good. I am a strong believer in playing young and winning later, and I don't see the point in playing players such as Robbo, Whelan, Wheatley, McDonald and even Bruce. They won't be part of the winning Melbourne team in a few years, so replace them with Newton, Jurrah, Valenti and others, so they can improve.

[H_T 3,032]

What a difference a bad loss makes.

What really irks me is that it's written on a weekend that we don't play - essentially sinking the boot in without us having the right of reply.

The blowtorch bloody well should have been on that club - 1 finals series in 16 years, 0 in 9 and now they want a youth policy!

Indeed. I'm wondering if Sheahan attended the Demons games against the Bulldogs, Saints & Hawks.

Agree. He named Petterd in a list of players who 'sustain hope for the faithful'. If Sheahan had seen enough Melbourne games he'd know that Petterd has been dropped for not giving enough to the team, and at this stage is not someone supporters are looking to to drag us out of the doldrums.

Quite right. Naming Petterd could be some proof of absence at Melbourne games of late.

Perhaps he got sick of writing about Mick & Collingwood.

Regarding the point he makes of Mick pointing out that Collingwood fielded a younger team than Melbourne on QB. Take McDonald and Robbo out of the side, it would have been the reverse. That's probably Mick being cunning, nevertheless indirectly it puts pressure on the Mfc.

[Adam The God 29,305]

I am intrigued as to what exactly the "youth excuse" actually is. We have many developing young players as well as youngsters yet to play for us and I don't think this has been used as a crutch at all. The reality is that our youth have performed reasonably well given the circumstances. Our defence is predominantly young that started its rise last year when Garland was instrumental. What (IMO) the majority of supporters understand is that we have a personnel issue and this is more than exemplified in the middle and up forward. How on earth can we blame youth when our next generation forward (Watts) has played 1 game and others like Jurrah are a little bit off and we are perhaps looking at drafting another forward (Butcher) if possible? A lot of the youth supporters are anticipating to perform haven't even been on the park.

Spot on, mate. I couldn't agree with you more.

Our spine (a vital part of a winning football team) right now consists of a young and inexperienced backline and an aging forward (Robbo) who is expected to hold together our entire forward half. We're an example of how difficult it is to win matches without a solid spine (FF,FB,CHB,CHF). We can hardly be blamed. Imagine taking out Franklin and Roughead, from Hawthorn's spine and simply replacing them with Robbo. They wouldn't win too many matches, I'm sure. The fact is, we're still developing youngsters all over the ground and lack experience in all areas and until we improve this (as time goes by), we won't be winning many games.

[Adam The God 29,305]

Buckley is 100% right. This youth crap is exactly what it is CRAP especially when we do have plenty of experience at senior level our fabric is a joke. This week against Essendon will be win, lose or draw a defining moment for Bailey. If he does the usual IN: MILLER OUT: ROBBO then he might as well resign cause he has NOT got the balls to coach. He must ring in the changes and they must be all youth get rid of McDonald, Bell, Whelan and Rivers and start Green, McLean and Bruce on the bench. That will signal to the club that reputations mean nothing. The senior players have been playing on reputation far too long and it has to stop. The midfield has to change Valenti and McKenzie have to be given a go, the midfield hasn't changed at all since Bailey has been incharge.

I disagree with this post entirely. Firstly, Bailey has shown the balls, he's delisted a number of senior players. Secondly, this year he has shown that reputation/experience alone will not automatically get you a game. I'd site the dropping of both Robbo one week, then Miller the previous as fine examples. Despite what some may think, you cannot simply get rid of every experienced player, you need to keep some out there, otherwise there will rarely be any direction for the younger players to aim for.

[Adam The God 29,305]

In terms of the $$$$? It would be the best debt management program we could enter.

You must be joking? How would getting Buckley into the club be debt managing? If anything it'd put us in further debt. Buckley has always loved money (site his move from Brisbane to Collingwood) and I'm sure he'd want a packet. Furthermore, a change now would only bring further instability in the club, which at this point is finally building stability. Ridiculous. I guess there will always be knockers.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I hope you're right, but if what you predict is not going to happen, then, for mine, we need to re-set our focus on our draft picks for 2010.

Nathan Buckley has already publically said he wants to coach in 2010. If so, he should be one of our "priority draft picks". And before the naysayers shoot me down, yes Dean Bailey is a great bloke, but in my humble opinion he will not get this current group over the line, in time, before we self destruct.

In terms of the $$$$? It would be the best debt management program we could enter.

Things need to change in the footy department and soon.

Take a Bex and stop hitting the panic button.

Buckley is already Collingwood bound.

[Swampfox 190]

I would be very surprised if Buckley chose a bottom 4 club

Its only the Media that are convinced that Buckley will be a senior coach next year

Guess what ........Its not up to them

[loges 6,767]

Slow news week and the Sheahan turns the blowtorch on MFC. Wow.

He has probably only seen us play on QBW this year and was trolling through Champion Data to fill his 400 word thesis.

Its not a matter of toleration of losses but the realisation and understanding that it will take time to blood and develop the younger players to step up in an environment where there is a lack of on field leadership and support.

Agree Rhino unnecessary negative article that doesn't bring up anything that isn't already known to most supporters.Mustn't have had anything else to write about

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Take a Bex and stop hitting the panic button.

Buckley is already Collingwood bound.

RR, at my age, I am well past needing a "Bex". Viagra is probably more likely.

As I said, the fabric of the club we all love has heaps of problems. As far as Buckley being a lay down misere for Collingwood, my mail is that Malthouse is over the line................and why would that surprise anyone who has witnessed McGoo's inclination to narcissism and as a result Collingwood's natural tendency to implode.

All I am saying is, if Buckley is at all interested, we should at least have a sniff.

[Eastie Boyz 0]

"The point he neglected to mention when comparing us to Richmond, is that they are 5 years into their rebuild, this is only our 2nd."

The point he neglected to mention when comparing us to Richmond, is that they are Richmond. I've seen some things at Melbourne over the years that have made me wince but Richmond makes us look like a fortune 500 company.

The fact that's he's comparing the team to Richmonnd is an embarrassment in itself

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

You must be joking? How would getting Buckley into the club be debt managing? If anything it'd put us in further debt. Buckley has always loved money (site his move from Brisbane to Collingwood) and I'm sure he'd want a packet. Furthermore, a change now would only bring further instability in the club, which at this point is finally building stability. Ridiculous. I guess there will always be knockers.

Hi AF,

There is a thing called "opportunity cost". In other words, what is the potential opportunity "revenue" we may lose, if we don't have a sniff at Buckley.

OK, we have, for the first time, in excess of 30K members. Given the draft picks we had and smart marketing from J Stynes and Schwabby, that's great, but no guarantee it will be replicated next year, especially if we get belted; time and time again in the second half of this year, as I suspect we will.

Great!!!!!! We get Scully and Butcher, but by that time we have had the b'Jesus kicked out of us, the kids we have already get to feel lower than ever and we're about to off load some favourite sons. Give me a break.

One thing we are renowned for in this comp is that we are soft and don't have a red hot go. Well, all I am saying is, we are about too. If the best is available and it is within our control for us to get them on board, then I say let's go for it.

............No more excuses.

[Guest]

If the best is available ...

Hi iv'a,

I feel a bit out of the loop up here in Sydney - but what are you basing this 'best available' judgment of Buckley on?

Surely not just his assistant coach role at the AIS and his coaching of the U16 Vic rep team.

Is it based on the comparative success of Voss at Brisbane? - http://sportal.com.au/afl-opinion-display/...ling-pies-70584

I don't think Voss's success is a true reflection of his coaching ability (or any sort of reflection of list management ability) - after all he did inherit a team containing 6 members of the Lions team of the decade still in their prime plus a good group of talented and physically mature youngsters (almost the exact opposite of the team that Bailey did inherit and Buckley would inherit).

[demoniac 1,295]

Mike, like most journalists these days who write for newspapers, appear on radio and on tv, has the memory of a goldfish. The universal view of journalists was that we we had to go into a rebuilding phase after the end of the Daniher era. And we did. We are only one and half seasons - or 2 drafting periods - into the rebuild, we are taking no short cuts with trades for experienced players, keeping our picks to select the best young talent that we can. Of course we have not progressed far in terms of our onfield performance and yes we still have weak areas in our list.

BUT WHAT DID MIKE EXPECT ONE AND A HALF YEARS INTO A FULL NO SHORTCUTS REBUILD?

[Adam The God 29,305]

One thing we are renowned for in this comp is that we are soft and don't have a red hot go. Well, all I am saying is, we are about too. If the best is available and it is within our control for us to get them on board, then I say let's go for it.

Why are we so convinced Buckley will be a good coach? Because Michael Voss has been moderately successful so far? Great players don't necessarily make great coaches.

Bailey will turn it 'round, when the pressure is on. Next year and the year after. Just wait a see. He's made some tough decisions so far, let him see out the next two or three seasons and if we see no progression (which I highly doubt), then it will be time to look around for another coach. But Bailey was selected by a highly regarded panel of experts (non-MFC people and MFC people) and I'm sure he wouldn't have beaten the other competitors, if he didn't have something special.

This year is a difficult one, we need the priority picks and no matter what some supporters will tell themselves, there's no way we're not going to try and get the priority pick. This year is about playign the kids, getting games into them and by next year, we'll start our rise. Slowly.

[Adam The God 29,305]

I don't think Voss's success is a true reflection of his coaching ability (or any sort of reflection of list management ability) - after all he did inherit a team containing 6 members of the Lions team of the decade still in their prime plus a good group of talented and physically mature youngsters (almost the exact opposite of the team that Bailey did inherit and Buckley would inherit).

Agreed. I think it's still the honeymoon period. Voss's challenge will be to back this up next year. They go to the break 7-5, it's not like they're 11-1, they've still lost 5 games. Buckley hasn't had any experience coaching and it'd be an extremely HUGE gamble for us to take him on. Besides, I think Bailey is doing a good job so far.

[Adam The God 29,305]

Mike, like most journalists these days who write for newspapers, appear on radio and on tv, has the memory of a goldfish. The universal view of journalists was that we we had to go into a rebuilding phase after the end of the Daniher era. And we did. We are only one and half seasons - or 2 drafting periods - into the rebuild, we are taking no short cuts with trades for experienced players, keeping our picks to select the best young talent that we can. Of course we have not progressed far in terms of our onfield performance and yes we still have weak areas in our list.

BUT WHAT DID MIKE EXPECT ONE AND A HALF YEARS INTO A FULL NO SHORTCUTS REBUILD?

Another sensible post.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Hi iv'a,

I feel a bit out of the loop up here in Sydney - but what are you basing this 'best available' judgment of Buckley on?

Surely not just his assistant coach role at the AIS and his coaching of the U16 Vic rep team.

Is it based on the comparative success of Voss at Brisbane? - http://sportal.com.au/afl-opinion-display/...ling-pies-70584

I don't think Voss's success is a true reflection of his coaching ability (or any sort of reflection of list management ability) - after all he did inherit a team containing 6 members of the Lions team of the decade still in their prime plus a good group of talented and physically mature youngsters (almost the exact opposite of the team that Bailey did inherit and Buckley would inherit).

I base my opinion on a number of aspects.

1. Buckley has a passion and wants to coach. He has put his hand up for 2010.

2. He has always commanded respect among his peers and younger guys.

3. He has obvious footy smarts.

4. (And perhaps the most important) the kudos, marketing currency, a general exposure he would bring to the MFC would be priceless.

Finally, I will say it one last time. Yes, we are in a re-building phase, yes, I do want high draft picks, but I do not see those 2 factors as being the panacea for our club. I am not prepared to accept that things will just happen because we have had the better end of the draft for the last 3 years. I want to see some resolve and steel back in the footy club, which I personally have not seen since G Lyon was there.

That's all. If Buckley is available and we're a chance to get him, I say why not go for it.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

All I am saying is, if Buckley is at all interested, we should at least have a sniff.

My understanding Buckley isn't interested.

Would you be leading the debt demolition sub committee campaign to pass around the hat to pay Bailey out?

Not a great endorsement of the current Board if they jump ship like that. Where MFC are at the moment was not out of the realms of possibility and the President has already made public statements tempering expectations.