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On 10/20/2017 at 8:33 PM, Wrecker45 said:

So basically you are saying that the backward brown people are homophobic.

Or

You could explain to me what the colour of people's skin has to do with this.

 

 

2 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

It doesn't answer my question nor did I ask one but thanks for trying.

I don't personally believe brown people are homophobic but you seem to. Then you try and blame white people for making brown people homophobic. The kind of warped argument I come to expect from leftists.

Wrecker, I get that you're trying to paint me as racist. It is not a very nice thing to do.

You asked for an explanation and I gave a fairly clear summary of how the situation arose that most developing countries / ex-colony countries have embraced 'traditional values' as an act of seeking continuity with their own heritage, rather than embrace the revolutions of the 'western' tradition which were given such a hypocritical edge by the facts of empire.

Nothing I've said is controversial or speculative. It is basic stuff. Level 1 history and anthropology. If, in your mind, that is 'the kind of warped argument I come to expect from leftists' then I might have to start respecting the left a bit more than I usually do.

I've accepted that there's simply no prospect of an honest conversation when it comes to you, so I'll be muting you. If you want to keep trolling at me, well, whatever makes you feel big, no trouble for me.

If you're looking for a role model when you decide to grow up a bit, I'd suggest ProDee. I think many of his actual opinions roughly align with yours, the difference being that he's generally not a jerk about it. Plus he often has interesting things to say about football, so I can't mute him even if he was a proper git.

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1 hour ago, dieter said:

Then again, there's the saying, If you've got nothing nice to say...

The truth isn't always nice.

You leftist dupe.

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2 hours ago, Biffen said:

The truth isn't always nice.

You leftist dupe.

What have/did the fascists I mentioned have anything to do with truth? Remember the names, Pell, Bolt, Morrison, Abbott, Hanson Dutton, Turnbullshite about the NBN,etc etc.

Yeah, in your mind obviously great soothsayers.

I guess if that makes me a leftist duppa so be it.

I know who the friggin duppas are...

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3 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

 

Wrecker, I get that you're trying to paint me as racist. It is not a very nice thing to do.

You asked for an explanation and I gave a fairly clear summary of how the situation arose that most developing countries / ex-colony countries have embraced 'traditional values' as an act of seeking continuity with their own heritage, rather than embrace the revolutions of the 'western' tradition which were given such a hypocritical edge by the facts of empire.

Nothing I've said is controversial or speculative. It is basic stuff. Level 1 history and anthropology. If, in your mind, that is 'the kind of warped argument I come to expect from leftists' then I might have to start respecting the left a bit more than I usually do.

I've accepted that there's simply no prospect of an honest conversation when it comes to you, so I'll be muting you. If you want to keep trolling at me, well, whatever makes you feel big, no trouble for me.

If you're looking for a role model when you decide to grow up a bit, I'd suggest ProDee. I think many of his actual opinions roughly align with yours, the difference being that he's generally not a jerk about it. Plus he often has interesting things to say about football, so I can't mute him even if he was a proper git.

Interesting. I find ProDee very pompous and dogmatic and prone to ex cathedra statements. Wrecker is preposterous but human...Sometimes there's a humorous side to his desperation. 

That's the thing, I guess, about very conservative and straight laced 'proper' types: they find it hard to laugh at themselves.

I crack up every time I look in the mirror. 

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5 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

 

Wrecker, I get that you're trying to paint me as racist. It is not a very nice thing to do.

You asked for an explanation and I gave a fairly clear summary of how the situation arose that most developing countries / ex-colony countries have embraced 'traditional values' as an act of seeking continuity with their own heritage, rather than embrace the revolutions of the 'western' tradition which were given such a hypocritical edge by the facts of empire.

Nothing I've said is controversial or speculative. It is basic stuff. Level 1 history and anthropology. If, in your mind, that is 'the kind of warped argument I come to expect from leftists' then I might have to start respecting the left a bit more than I usually do.

I've accepted that there's simply no prospect of an honest conversation when it comes to you, so I'll be muting you. If you want to keep trolling at me, well, whatever makes you feel big, no trouble for me.

If you're looking for a role model when you decide to grow up a bit, I'd suggest ProDee. I think many of his actual opinions roughly align with yours, the difference being that he's generally not a jerk about it. Plus he often has interesting things to say about football, so I can't mute him even if he was a proper git.

You remind me of an old moderator who was all vocabulary and no logic.

Of course you will mute me. Your long winded answers are taking up too much time and my short responses are cutting through the bs.

I've muted everyone who has a better argument than me as well. It just hasn't happened yet.

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All votes are in.

I called Brexit and Trump but think the "yes" vote will win this. It will be much closer than any poll suggested but a small victory.

Expect now the lefties who laughed at Howard and Abbott for saying the legislation should be put forward before the vote to cry foul when the new legislation is argued over.

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My count on the 17 electorates who voted "no"
4 Liberal (including benelong)
1 National
1 Katter
11 Labor
 

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I wonder how the Labor left and the ABC will spin the fact that most of the so called "biggoted" seats are theirs.... 

My guess is that they will just ignore it.

No real surprise that Sydneys West voted the way it did. How long till we see mass protests in those electorates to call out the "Bigots"....   That will happen right? lols.

Righto, time to get the laws squared away and get back to some sort of governing again. 

 

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Just going to pop back in here to say:

1 - yay :)

2 - Regarding the left/labor thing above - I identify mostly as 'left' nowadays but certainly do not align my politics with the Labor party. Many of my 'leftie' friends are in similar positions, where the party that is supposed to represent our interests doesn't actually resemble our position much at all. I wonder if this result indicates that this is a societal trend, not just one I've observed within my immediate circle of friends.

If the Libs can get it done, more power to them. I'm also a big supporter of their recent super changes, and hope that a financial royal commission occurs under their watch so that the industry (read: union) super funds are also in-scope. If the royal commission happens under Labor, it will only focus on the banks and maybe AMP & IOOF, and the huge union funds will escape scrutiny.

That ended up in a different place to where it started.

Yay marriage equality!

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I don't think he posts here, but Tony Abbott, if you're reading this: Have fun at your sister's wedding mate :laugh:

Edited by Grapeviney
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30 minutes ago, ding said:

I wonder how the Labor left and the ABC will spin the fact that most of the so called "biggoted" seats are theirs.... 

My guess is that they will just ignore it.

No real surprise that Sydneys West voted the way it did. How long till we see mass protests in those electorates to call out the "Bigots"....   That will happen right? lols.

Righto, time to get the laws squared away and get back to some sort of governing again. 

 

Modern political lines have made it extremely difficult for both major parties to represent their traditional bases.

Certainly with Labor there's a real push pull between the more progressive base and the traditional working class, who may be more reluctant to support progressive policy (looks like this was at play with the Wrecker's count above). Indeed, it looks like the Greens have pinched some of the more 'progressive' left leaners from Labor in recent years.

No doubt that trying to accommodate the traditional Coalition base has tied Malcolm up in knots whilst trying to govern as a 'moderate' leader.

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Wasn't a number one issue for me but had no trouble voting yes.

Bit concerned that the were 40% almost against in the sense that my take was that you had to be really against the concept to vote no.

Anyway it's done now and time to move on to governing and please don't get me started on the dual citizenship fiasco (Only in Australia !!)

Edited by Diamond_Jim

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43 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

I don't think he posts here, but Tony Abbott, if you're reading this: Have fun at your sister's wedding mate :laugh:

Tony Abbott who promised the mechanism to bring in ssm? 

Penny Wong was in Goverment prior to Abbott and swore black and blue she thought marriage should be between man and a women. So did her Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Today I see Wong crying with joy after the announcement. She is clearly not a conviction politician.

So just to be clear it was Abbott's idea to have a public vote, a Liberal party policy to have the Postal Vote and the Liberal held Electorates voted more strongly for "yes" than the Labor held Electorates.

Abbott and his sister (and partner) are close. 

But don't let the facts get in the way of your Abbott hatred.

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1 hour ago, ChaserJ said:

Modern political lines have made it extremely difficult for both major parties to represent their traditional bases.

Certainly with Labor there's a real push pull between the more progressive base and the traditional working class, who may be more reluctant to support progressive policy (looks like this was at play with the Wrecker's count above). Indeed, it looks like the Greens have pinched some of the more 'progressive' left leaners from Labor in recent years.

No doubt that trying to accommodate the traditional Coalition base has tied Malcolm up in knots whilst trying to govern as a 'moderate' leader.

I don't think you can say Labor's traditional base is progressive. They were certainly for white Australia. 

Their most recent Government was spending big on windmills and they shunned same sex marriage despite what the polling was saying.

The only reason Turnbull is tied in knots is because he leans too far left. His greatest achievement will be ssm and he got that through by sticking fat with Abbott's idea and a twisted arm from his conservative back bench.

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1 hour ago, Choke said:

Just going to pop back in here to say:

1 - yay :)

2 - Regarding the left/labor thing above - I identify mostly as 'left' nowadays but certainly do not align my politics with the Labor party. Many of my 'leftie' friends are in similar positions, where the party that is supposed to represent our interests doesn't actually resemble our position much at all. I wonder if this result indicates that this is a societal trend, not just one I've observed within my immediate circle of friends.

If the Libs can get it done, more power to them. I'm also a big supporter of their recent super changes, and hope that a financial royal commission occurs under their watch so that the industry (read: union) super funds are also in-scope. If the royal commission happens under Labor, it will only focus on the banks and maybe AMP & IOOF, and the huge union funds will escape scrutiny.

That ended up in a different place to where it started.

Yay marriage equality!

Congratulations to all the ssm supporters and ss couples. A resounding yes by the Australian people speaks much louder and will mean much more than any change of legislation by a limp Government ever could have.

If you ever feel like starting a thread on industry super funds I would be really interested in what you have to say. 

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1 hour ago, Wrecker45 said:

Tony Abbott who promised the mechanism to bring in ssm? 

Penny Wong was in Goverment prior to Abbott and swore black and blue she thought marriage should be between man and a women. So did her Prime Minister Julia Gillard. Today I see Wong crying with joy after the announcement. She is clearly not a conviction politician.

So just to be clear it was Abbott's idea to have a public vote, a Liberal party policy to have the Postal Vote and the Liberal held Electorates voted more strongly for "yes" than the Labor held Electorates.

Abbott and his sister (and partner) are close. 

But don't let the facts get in the way of your Abbott hatred.

Bwahahaha, poor old Wrecker, stuck in the same narrow political silos about which he complains. No wonder you're confused about the high yes vote in conservative electorates and the no vote in Labor seats. 

I never defended Penny Wong and her (and Labor's) hypocrisy. And I don't hate Tony Abbott, I actually know him quite well. But let's not pretend he's a conviction politician either. Or have you forgotten about the self-confessed 'weathervane' who didn't believe in climate change, but then went and signed the Paris agreement and set the RET as PM, and now tells us warming is good?

 

Edited by Grapeviney

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46 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

Congratulations to all the ssm supporters and ss couples. A resounding yes by the Australian people speaks much louder and will mean much more than any change of legislation by a limp Government ever could have.

If you ever feel like starting a thread on industry super funds I would be really interested in what you have to say. 

lol, don't tempt me mate. I work with them constantly. It's an... interesting experience.

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36 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

Bwahahaha, poor old Wrecker, stuck in the same narrow ideological silos about which he complains. No wonder you're confused about the high yes vote in conservative electorates and the no vote in Labor seats. 

I never defended Penny Wong and her (and Labor's) hypocrisy. And I don't hate Tony Abbott, I actually know him quite well. But let's not pretend he's a conviction politician either. Or have you forgotten about the self-confessed 'weathervane' who didn't believe in climate change, but then went and signed the Paris agreement and set the RET as PM, and now tells us warming is good?

 

I'm not confused about the high yes vote amongst conservatives, in fact, just read this thread and you will see I said conservatives are normally drivers of change.

 

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Amazing news and a small victory for common sense and human decency, in the face of the absolute rubbish coming out of humanity recently. 

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8 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

I'm not confused about the high yes vote amongst conservatives, in fact, just read this thread and you will see I said conservatives are normally drivers of change.

 

Not really.  In fact the definition of conservatism is the 'disposition to preserve what is established; opposition to innovation or change; disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions etc'.

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8 minutes ago, Grapeviney said:

Not really.  In fact the definition of conservatism is the 'disposition to preserve what is established; opposition to innovation or change; disposed to preserve existing conditions, institutions etc'.

You misunderstand conservatism.

The great social changes like moving past white Australian policy and gun control were driven by conservatives as was the ssm postal survey which will translate into ssm.

The progressives are off trying to bring in windmills with unicorns flying alongside them to provide infinite imaginary energy.

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4 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

My count on the 17 electorates who voted "no"
4 Liberal (including benelong)
1 National
1 Katter
11 Labor
 

Most of those 11 Labor seats are in low income heavily migrant populated areas, areas where religion still yokes the brain cells of its constituents towards very basic conservative values. There are also very many so-called Catholics who vote labour but no to ssm.

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2 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

I don't think you can say Labor's traditional base is progressive. They were certainly for white Australia. 

Their most recent Government was spending big on windmills and they shunned same sex marriage despite what the polling was saying.

The only reason Turnbull is tied in knots is because he leans too far left. His greatest achievement will be ssm and he got that through by sticking fat with Abbott's idea and a twisted arm from his conservative back bench.

No denying that White Australia is a stain on our history that Labor has to own responsibility for, but they hardly represent the conservative side of politics.

Still view Turnbull as a centrist in a party that's moved right at a surprising rate.

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4 hours ago, ding said:

I wonder how the Labor left and the ABC will spin the fact that most of the so called "biggoted" seats are theirs.... 

My guess is that they will just ignore it.

No real surprise that Sydneys West voted the way it did. How long till we see mass protests in those electorates to call out the "Bigots"....   That will happen right? lols.

Righto, time to get the laws squared away and get back to some sort of governing again. 

 

There are no surprises in that result...  some Labor seats are in areas (such as the seat of Blaxland in Sydney's west), where religion would have had voters swinging towards the No vote.  Many other Labor seats have large numbers of blue collar workers, who would possibly have also leant towards the No vote. 

I don't think this is an issue that can be looked at along party lines or even in terms of left and right; but if you want to use it as an excuse to bash the "lefties" go ahead, knock yourself out.  Personally, I'm just glad that sense prevailed and the Yes vote won the day.

Edited by hardtack
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4 hours ago, ding said:

I wonder how the Labor left and the ABC will spin the fact that most of the so called "biggoted" seats are theirs....

I happily voted yes but I did find this outcome extremely interesting.

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