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Culture isn't just about earning games, it's also showing how senior one club players are treated. His form before today has been very good, we're not in danger of missing finals, I would be voting he does play against GWS for a send off.

They'll probably just go home and watch the 2007, 2009 and 2011 Grand Finals on replay.

Get excited dee fans. http://m.heraldsun.com.au/subscribe/news/1/index.html?sourceCode=HSWEB_WRE170_a&mode=premium&dest=http://m.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/carlton-must-show-patrick-cripps-the-money-now/story-fnp04d70-1227503299461&memtype=registered

I never post but I feel I have to reply to the criticism of Roos. The general public and media can be excused as they don't know the facts, but the MFC supporters really frustrate me as they should know better. The ultimate responsibility for player development and recruiting rests with the coach. If you disagree with that then you should stop reading now. In the two years that Neeld was coach, he brought 17 players on to MFC List. Viney was father/son so he gets no credit for him. He also gets no credit for Hogan as any coach would have traded for him in the same circumstances. Players, apart from Talls, start to hit their peak in year 3 and 4 so lets look at the players Neeld brought in that are in year 3 and 4 now. From the 15 players(excluding Viney/Hogan) Neeld brought in, five remain on MFC list and only Dawes gets a regular game. From player development he gets a 0 out of 10 and the same goes for recruiting. There are no players he brought in that will develop into regular senior players(yes I have made a call on Toumpas) When Roos took over he had no emerging players on the list, a low win/loss and 50% percentage. Under his two years he has brought in 19 players. I believe three players Clisby(gone) Riley and Hunt will not make it. Of the 16 players some are already regulars (Cross, Tyson, Vince,Salem,Garlett, Lumumba,Brayshaw) and ten will become regular senior players. That's 16 out of 19(you may argue the number is lower) but its way more than the 1 from 15 under Neeld. Of the 19 players Roos brought in, this week will make it 16 that have played at least one game. You must remember where we were and how far we have come before going off at Roos. In 2017 the new coach will have emerging 3 and 4 year old players which is vital for further success. Roos did not have that luxury.

Why? Our season is over. If we were a chance at finals I would agree, but bringing him in for one game at the end of the year doesn't hurt us at all. Russian has been a tremendous servant of our club and it would be terrific to see him get one final game.

Will go on to be our second 300 gamer and a club great.

I've mentioned a few times on here, Jesse gets along well with my best mate, we let him go visit his family basically whenever he wants, the club for all the things it does wrong is managing Jesse really well, and she said he has mentioned that to her, he's stoked with how we treat him, we have invested so much in the kid, and he rates the club and it's direction so absolutely nothing to stress about here, every time we play in perth he takes a few extra days over there. But lets indulge the hyperthetical, Jesse asks for a trade to freo at the end of 2016, still contracted, we'd demand Nat Fyfe or Lachie Neale and their 2016 & 2017 first rounders

AFL will still consider radical ideas despite congestion clearing This is one massive relevant reason for our recent plight. The AFL and the umps have conspired to take stoppages out of the game. Faster ball ups; different interpretation of holding-the-ball etc ... This would have impacted on Sydney 2005; as it definitely has on Melbourne in the past 5 weeks This absolutely kills teams who don't have much outside speed. But you have to have half a footy brain to work it out.

Don't think any list manager in the competition would call $1M a year for Hogan, and locking him in until his first year of FA eligibility, a poor move. Finish the season, pay for a club trip to Bali with all his young teammates, send him home to see his family for a fortnight (just long enough for him to remember how naggy his parents are ), then put the contract under his nose. Oh, and pay for all his older siblings to move to Melbourne. That'll do it.

I went today to have a look for the first time at Curnow and Parish. I'm glad I did in the end, was a peach of a day for footy and both Curnow and Parish played major roles in a comfortable win for the Falcons. Darcy Parish: I'd heard about his kicking before today, but no one has mentioned how good his hands are. Clean and fast, he seemed to be one step ahead of his opponents, and sometimes his teammates, for most of the afternoon. He also possesses incredible vision, and spotted open players that even I didn't see from my spot in the grandstand. The most impressive part of his game though, was how good his decision making was and how quickly he executed those decisions. As previously stated, it was the quick handballs and the ability to pull the trigger by foot and hit a teammate on the chest in space that made him stand out. He played in the midfield for most of the day, but when rested forward still looked dangerous. Anyone who thinks he isn't hard enough clearly hasn't watched him. Although I doubt he'll ever be a clearance, contested ball winning machine, he seemed to have no issue taking a hit. He will need to work on his defensive running and pressure in the AFL, and I would be surprised if he registered a tackle for the entire game. He probably finished with about 20 odd disposals, so he wasn't exactly dominant, and as I alluded to before he reminded me of Nick Dal Santo. Charlie Curnow: Charlie finished the game with 4 goals (by my count), which the Falcons staff must be stoked with as it was his first game back after having significant time out through injury. First thing you notice about Curnow is his size, he is very well built for a kid. He played forward for the whole game and was dominant, every time the ball came near him something looked like happening. Probably took 4 or 5 contested marks for the day, and was very clean in the air. Can take a grab. Although he didn't play through the midfield, there were a few instances where it was clear he has great midfield potential. Incredibly strong, and like Parish seems to be very clean by hand in the trenches. Wouldn't have missed a target by foot all day either. I'd be surprised if Curnow holds up as a full-time key forward, don't think he has the height to be a modern key position player. I've seen Skippos on Bigfooty compare him to Stringer and Darling. I disagree, he isn't as dynamic and is certainly not as quick. I'd say Josh Kennedy/Nat Fyfe would be a far better comparison. Feel free to ask any questions about the game today, I'll answer as best I can.

[censored] that. I'd love to see those drug cheats finish with 17 broken legs

The disappointing thing is that our players should be fired up to atone for a game like we had against the Dogs without any help from Roos. Where is that pride in the jumper and the willingness to bounce back from it? Why don't they take some responsibility for their performance and work their backsides off to change it? Regardless of what else happens they should have steeled themselves to not put in such a horrible performance two weeks in a row. I'm not absolving Roos for his involvement but it's just as much on the players as it is on Roos.

you have so much pent up anger inside you wyl,you look for soft easy targets to take it out on, & it shows as your impatience & intolerance. This kid is still in development phase & he has more in him yet, but he has some roadblocks to learn how to cope with. This part I hope you can understand.

Will be checking out tomorrows game between the Falcons and Stingrays at Simonds. Should be a good one, with the majority of top level talent on show. Esp looking forward to seeing if Weitering spends some time on Curnow and how Jake Lovett goes against a midfield which inludes Parish and Mathieson. http://www.foxsportspulse.com/assoc_page.cgi?client=1-3020-0-0-0&&news_task=DETAIL&articleID=35785400

I don't usually barrack for Collingwood but that was a result I really enjoyed. Geelong and its bunch of arrogant tossers can go sulk about missing finals. As for the match - let's hope our players watched what Collingwood said last week ('nothing to play for') and how they changed it to this week.

The MFC reminds me of a team that genuinely wants to get better because that's what should happen, not a team who desperately wants to get better and will one way or another make it happen. there are certain players within the club hell bent on seeing us improve, and there are others that think it'd be a nice idea. we need to be ruthless this off season, i'd rather see 18 year olds running around giving the effort of Brayshaw, Stretch and Nibbler than blokes who have been around a while and lack the fire in the belly to make things happen.

'Buckley praised his players for responding after turning into "22 individuals" in a nightmare fourth quarter against Richmond last Saturday. "We spoke about pride and respect," the coach said after the easy win over the Cats.' Buckley obviously found the magic wand to turn his team around from last week's debacle and the captain's 'meaningless' game reference. Roos wants our players to play like maniacs or play 'angry'. But I don't think the team has enough 'aggro' for that. If they do it is often snuffed out rather quickly. But I sure hope we have enough character to play with Pride And Respect. Forget the result tomorrow. I would like to see what they are really made of: Team Pride And Respect - that is what I want to see!

No mucking around with this kid, 7 year deal worth 10 mil.

Likewise, stoked for Menzel. Kid deserves a solid run at it, no matter how much I dislike the team he plays for. Let him be an inspiration to Petracca and Trengove, both solid kids with a good head on their shoulders who can likewise aim for a return game of such class.

Really happy for Menzel, as I'm sure most on here would given what we endured with Schwarz. He could not have dreamed of a better return than that. Well done, that's perseverance.

Tom Cutler..?? WTF!?

In the Hogan v Hawkins contest going on in my head, Hawkin's pretty quiet game tonight (1 goal, no contested marks midway through the fourth) means that the 'win' on both stats is within Jesse's reach. I almost don't care about the game result on sunday, just get it to Hogan every chance there is and let him finish the season No. 1 for contested marks and top 10 for goal tally. Then again, that's probably our best chance of winning, too!

Treloar is in a whole different league to Miles, and has so much more speed, skill and X factor.

Why would we care more about players wanting to impress other clubs than one of our own retiring?

Yeah nah..

I agree about his mobility, been saying it for a few years. He's been emergency for a few weeks now, has been playing really well for Casey. He taps to advantage and kicks goals, two things that would be pretty handy for us. We're not discussing his chances of playing on next year, we're saying he was obviously already close to selection and imagine the impact of seeing a one club player go out on a high for guys like Hogan, Brayshaw etc who are just starting out.

I've never really had one LH (even though I know you only brought it up in reference to Roosy). I always believe in some way that we can win any game we play. Ridiculous, yes, but I can't approach our games in any other way. Hogan signing on until, say, 2019 or 2020 would be one of the biggest shows of faith in our club in a long, long time. I would literally sob tears of joy for hours.

If we were to sign him up to an extension at the end of the year as it was alluded to in the HUN article, well, I think I would shed tears of joy, excitement and relief.

Come now, Geelong are on the verge of their worst season in 12 years! They might even finish with the same number of losses as wins! One more goal last night and it would've been their third 50+ point loss in a season! How could they cope with only having the same number of 50 point wins as losses? But the real test of Geelong's character will come next season. What if they continue to stagnate in the murky celler-dwellar zone of 6th-10th place on the ladder all season? Can any serious football supporter be expected to stay loyal and firm after a second consecutive season out of the finals? But we shouldn't worry about Geelong's negativity. they have proven truly resilient over the years. Missing finals 9 times since 1989 has been a tough ride. And I'm sure that their disastrous pair of wooden spoons in '57/'58 still crush their souls every bit as much as Melbourne's golden era of the time lifts ours. Sure, they won premierships five years before that, and another one five years later, but still... tough times. Ok. I'm done with Geelong comparisons. Someone else already posted the Selwood/Jones win-loss experience.

I agree on Collins, I think he'll be one to surprise being picked early, or in years to come we will ask how he lasted so long in the draft. But I also rate Plowman and Tomlinson more than most, obviously. They are about the right age to begin hitting their straps, like Tyson did for us pre-injury.

I'd be thinking that Frost might be that full back you are looking for. Possibly Weiderman as that full forward but no idea where the rest will come from. It's exciting though.

Very strong team!! Gives hope for the future. Moves beyond the inconsistent and questionable efforts of Dawes, Howe, Toumpas. And places great faith in the future built on Viney, Salem, Hogan, Brayshaw, Petracca, Watts. I'm going to keep any eye out for the first time this 17 group of players take to the field together, and no doubt will be pleased with the scoreboard result at the final siren. There is some serious talent on our list, and serious reason to be excited for 2016 and beyond!!

Geez you have a narrow mind and a penchant for horrible comparisons. Are you seriously comparing a club that has won three flags in the past 8 years to us, a club that has barely been out of the bottom 4 in 8 years? Geelong are in rebuild and Scott will be granted slightly more time than an MFC coach for obvious reasons.

That's the key rule and on that basis, I can see why the omission of James Harmes might be so timely. He's played 7 games for MFC and it could be that the club wants him get a taste of playing finals football - albeit at a lower level than AFL - just to get a feel of what it's like to take part in that area of the game.

2. Get over Tom Scully FCS, this boy was given a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity that any son of ours (posters) would be crazy to say no to. Yes he lied. But look at Lachy Henderson's truth. Look at Wallet's truth to the Bulldogs re: Sydney. We say players are weak. Fact is clubs themselves can't handle the cold hard reality. OK, I enjoyed the banter of the money bags in the first game at the G, Melbourne v. Scully. The continuing angst is just petulance in my book. Extreme petulance.

TAC Cup Wrap: Round 17 It's probably far too early for a thread on Hugh McCluggage but I'd be surprised if he's not in contention to become this year's Freddie Clutterbuck. TAC Cup Wrap: Round 18

If you think that one player (Wines) is the difference between us being bottom 6 and top 6 then you have no idea what's wrong with this club and you're one of those people who is too fixated on list changes and nowhere near enough on internal development. We are not going to go anywhere unless the leaders on our list change their attitudes and our list as a whole improves. Single players on their own are not, and won't be, the messiah. Just because you thought Wines was the better player doesn't mean he was the right pick, nor does it mean other people were wrong for thinking Toumpas was the better player. The evidence to that point allowed either option. So it wasn't a 'gamble' to take Toumpas, hips or no hips. At any rate, if we'd taken Wines, brought him into our toxic environment, there is every chance he would not be the same player he is now. Of course, this assumes Toumpas would have failed at every club, rather than just failing at this club. We'll never know of course, but I'm confident that a substantial reason why Toumpas hasn't made it is the fact that he came to Melbourne. To put it another way, if he'd gone to Hawthorn instead, the odds are he'd be better now than spending that same time at Melbourne.

An excellent point and our plight hasn't been helped by season long injuries to two of the quickest players on our list in Frost and Kent, the inexperience of another in Stretch and the recent inconsistency of Garlett. I'm reasonably assured that part of our recruiting focus will be on this area in the off season and with trends in the game likely to be in that direction, the need and the opportunity are both there to turn this around in a new season.

I think the problem with this thread is the title which includes the words, "The Facts". There are plenty of opinions here, many of which may or may not be logical or fair, but it contains not that many facts and plenty of errors and omissions. We've gone over this ground a number of times before on this forum so many would be familiar with my opinion that Mark Neeld was a much maligned person and a great deal of that was not justified and confected by those with other agendas at the club. Unfortunately, it turned out that under the additional pressure, he wasn't a great match day coach. He got a bum rap in that walked into a club at a time when there was a political maelstrom happening which not only did not help his cause but put ithe club's recovery back 2 or 3 years. We are now on the verge of much better times but we don't, as a team have sufficient depth to overcome situations such as the current one where we have had two of our major playmakers in Jones and Vince down on form (possibly injured) and the only other midfielders who could step into their shoes Tyson and vandenBerg out injured and Brayshaw and Viney getting tired after a long haul of a season and too young yet to have sufficient influence to make enough of a difference. Roos, like Bailey and Neeld can only do so much with the material he has and I'm personally bemused at how our fans have blown up this slump we're going through into such a catastrophe. It's not enjoyable watching the fiascos of the past couple of weeks but we've taken steps forward this year and it's fairly obvious that we're building our team depth and starting to get more quality at the top. I'm looking forward to 2016 under Roos with some more running players at his disposal, an additional forward and the jettisoning of a few players who have run their course and there's no reason why we can't be next year's Bulldogs.

So potentially the lions could get pick 2 for Leuenberger? Frawley was a joke for pick 3 but my god no one could defend that!

A million a year is probably unders by the time the next CBA is announced.

Looks like Fox Footy has decided to boot Adelaide out of the finals.

I'd like to see the club persist with Toump. I said earlier in the thread that guys like Toumpas should be the perfect development projects for our substantial FD related group of coaches. On the other side of the coin is the fact we drafted a bloke only two years older from a lower league who loves the rough stuff and made an immeadite impact. I think there will be ample places opened up on the list through other delistings, trades and FA's without having to move Toumpas. His character cannot be questioned, his skills are pretty good and he's only 21 years of age.

The fact we dont lose by 80 points plus every week is a good indication of our improvement

If you want to be un-Melbournelike then perhaps you need to invent a time machine and go back to Sunday 24 May, 2015 or Sunday 21 June, 2015 and discover what it was about the team that led it to produce such diametrically opposite outcomes to those of the past two weeks instead of contemplating on the attitude of supporters or perceptions about the culture of the club. It's only two or three years ago that Richmond supporters were consigning their memberships to the microwave but that sort of thing has nothing to do with improving player fitness, skills, mental approach and team strategies. Concentrate on those things and not the BS we've been hearing lately in the media. Teach the players how to perform and do it consistently, that's all.

Regardless of skill level, there's no excuse for fully paid professional sportspeople not bringing effort, energy, application and their best attitude to matchdays.

In terms of later picks, very bullish on Kurt Mutimer. Have had a little to do with him and significant upside imo. Central to Vic Country down back but received very little media attention. Good kick.

You forgot Georgiou. He didn't make it and was bought in by Roos and Dean Kent was bought in by Neeld, so that makes one for Neeld. Otherwise I agree with your post.

Are you just having stabs in the dark now? Frost and O Mac are KP players. Bugg is a 184 cm midfielder/HBF. Frost is quick, O mac is definitely not and Bugg has average pace.

Matt Jones and Rohan Bail are still getting games for us, evidence that we're a long way off having the depth of the good sides. Therefore, Bugg is certainly worth looking at. Has proven himself to be a servicable AFL player. We're certainly not in a good enough position to be saying "No" to players of his ilk.