Trading reports will be allowed to resume previous format. You can get them in poorly worded, missing stuff, making stuff up, even after 4 for all I care atm.

FITNESS!!

12 hours ago, bing181 said:

Also also FWIW, in my opinion what has happened with the players/team/club over the last few seasons is almost ALL between the ears. Even this year. We can at times play like gods and match it with the very best. And then lose to the very worst, often in the worst kind of way (e.g., inaccuracy in front of goal). We're both miles ahead of the Norths, WCE's and Essendons - and miles behind them.

It's not about technique (the players can at times do exactly what's needed), it's not about coaching (we can at times dominate opposition and counter their strengths). Lack of consistency within and across games is almost always down to what's going on between the ears.

As to why, and what to do about it ... I have no idea. I do wonder though whether winning the flag has become a millstone around this group's neck, that they can neither move on from it nor refind the form that lead to it. The pressure and expectation to succeed saps away at them - e.g. both Goodwin and Salem spoke a while back about "chasing the scoreboard" rather than focusing on what you're supposed to be doing.

There's a lot to unpick.

I agree with much of that Bing

But id add that in my opinion there is little doubt we have not been sufficiently fit.

BUT it doesn't necessarily follow that that's all on the high-performance program. A huge amount of responsibility has to fall on the shoulders of the players.

To get to the comparative fitness advantage we had on the comp in 2021, the sort the Pies and Lions have had in the last 2 years requires all team 101% buy in and fierce desire to push beyond that.

Perhaps it's also between the ears with a critical mass of players thinking they are pushing to their limits but in fact not doing so.

An important impact of not being fit enough is how that intersects with the psychological aspect you are talking about.

Put simply people under fatigue are less likely to make good decisions and more likely to make what appear to be complete brain fades.

Edited yesterday at 02:421 day by binman

Just now, Roost it far said:

Trading reports will be allowed to resume previous format. You can get them in poorly worded, missing stuff, making stuff up, even after 4 for all I care atm.

We know we’re in trouble when Roosty throws the towel in 😭

Before your care factor totally bottoms out maybe as self-appointed boss of training reports you could do us track-watchers a solid and issue an order to the perennial sadsacks to take their [censored] sadarze [censored] to another thread.

TIA 👍🏽

14 minutes ago, Ghostwriter said:

I’m on it, Binners!!!

I mean i'd probably sneak a look to see what all the fuss was about!

1 minute ago, binman said:

I mean i'd probably sneak a look to see what all the fuss was about!

Define “a look.” Not sure viewing for hours on end is sneaking a look.

Just now, Ghostwriter said:

Define “a look.” Not sure viewing for hours on end is sneaking a look.

Time is an abstract concept

1 hour ago, 48 Year Now said:

You dont think its worthwhile to be able to attack or defend from a 666 infringement?

It would be nice. But there's much more value to be had from working on other matters. I'm just interested in putting limited resources (including time) into areas where we can get the most value.

7 minutes ago, Ghostwriter said:

Thank you, DZ. Of all days, yesterday was one where I couldn’t NOT turn up.

It’s not easy. It’s actually bloody hard. The looks on some of their faces broke my heart, especially the young boys. I wish all those who relentlessly bag our players could turn up to Gosch’s on a day like yesterday to see the hurt on their young faces.

Troy Chaplin and Chin were walking together and Troy said to me “I didn’t think you’d be here today.” Chin said “I did” and smiled. And that’s why I’ll always turn up.

With respect i think you should have a look around the city and find some young people who are really struggling. That breaks my hesrt not men, who you call boys on multi $$$ deals playing professional sport .

2 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

It would be nice. But there's much more value to be had from working on other matters. I'm just interested in putting limited resources (including time) into areas where we can get the most value.

Here is the situation

AFL introduces a 666

We do not have a defensive set up / structure to defend against it.

Likewise we do not have an offencive set up to score from it when it favours us.

St Kilda did.

And you dont think that is important.

2 hours ago, binman said:

The negativity on DL fir the last 18 months has been relentless.

But is peaking right now on the back of the disaster that unfolded in the last 30 mins of last week's game.

I was there, sitting directly above the Dee Army, (whose support was awesome from go to whoa). So I got the full immersive angst experience.

Don't get me wrong it was certainly something to behold.

But at the risk of being howled down, whilst I understand ans share the anger and frustration fans feel, frankly I find many of the attacks on our club pathetic.

What amazes me is that people attack the club like they are not part of it.

Supporters of the dees, regardless of whether they are a paid up member or not, ARE the club.

Boards, coaches, players, CEOs etc come and go. Supporters don't. Supporters support.

We are the club.

I love the dees, and have done since I started supporting them I'm 1972.

I have seen my fair share of woeful performances, including full seasons when we struggled to win a game.

Perhaps is just me, but I've never once felt the urge to mindlessly attack the club and spew vitriol towards it. Criticise sure, blind negativity and anger never.

The one constant in the 50 plus years I've supported the dees is for almost all that time we have been a rabble off field.

Successful organisations, whether in business, community or sport, have one thing in common - strong governance.

Calls for the coaches sacking all you like, bag the the players until you are blue in the place, but we won't see sustained success until we sort our chronic, half century long governance problems.

The great irony is, unlike how players and coaches perform or our trading decisions etc etc, supporters actually CAN do something about improving our governance.

We are a member based organisation and we have power.

In my book, if we choose not to use that power (and I don't mean by refusing to buy a membership or attend games - which of course doesn't help) angst should be directed at us not the usual scapegoats.

Part of the problem not part of the solution.

Peter Lawrence copped a bit of stick for activelly trying to do something about improving our governance.

I for one look at PL's efforts to improve our governance last year thru a different lens now given we end yey another season in turmoil with the shadow President and new CEO on holidays in Europe and not returning to seasons end (even if we wanted to make major changes to the FD how can we).

I'll put my hand up and admit that i have shown little interst in actually trying to ccontribute to efforts to improve our governance. I'll start thinking about how i can change that - for a start I'll go to our AGM for only the third time.

This is a great post, and some much needed focus/positivity.

Personally, I've never potted the players, their effort or commitment to the club. Nor have I asked/demanded Goody be sacked, although it's fair to ask whether he is the right man going forward (although there are many questions which need answering, to be fair) and must be asked as part of the current/planned 'review' (or re-review).

My greatest gripe right now is, as you say, with the governance. We have been a rabble for years and I am fearful that this will lead us to slide back down the relevance ladder again (after a brief, but enjoyable period at the top, back at the table, in conversations etc.), and it won't be stopped in time. It took us DECADES to become relevant again, with some good/lucky recruitment/trades etc. I'm disappointed with the review we did, its clearly failed implementation and the lack of regular reference to its findings/recommendations. No club with the 2024 we had, following that review, our strong list, comes out to start with an insipid 0-5. Except us. Very Melbourne.

I have been a diehard Dee since '88 when Jimmy and Garry came to my school and told me they'd win the flag that year (close, even if an ugly way to finish 2nd). Member for 21 years. This means so much to me, as it does so many on here. It's more than a club and more than a game. Even if that is weird to say, because ultimately it is just a bunch of people kicking the footy around. Sometimes really well.

So far all we have had is reviews for the sake of reviews and words for the sake of words. I never fully trust these boards because they are usually filled with self-interested people from power, who like to stay in power for the sake of power and prestige. And us little people, even if there are a few of us, never seem to displace that. Case in point, Peter Lawrence.

I'm sick of seeing the Cats, Hawks and Pies always floating back up to the top. In the Cats' case, staying there for 20+ years.

I don't want any more words. I want action. Real, tangible action. Will we get it though?

Edited yesterday at 03:351 day by Red But Mostly Blue

With only a few weeks to go, it would be interesting to understand the teams perspective on what they want to achieve in this time. Do they want to regain some credibility by winning? Do they want to blood more young talent and see what they can do? Are they going to mothball some players and get them cherry ripe for next year?

It is going to be interesting to see how this plays out - fitness is no longer a key element with only a few weeks to go and no finales series. Do they really just keep working on the new game plan??

2 hours ago, MrFreeze said:

Id actually like to see the players engage in public self flagellation to ensure the DLers stay happy 🙄

Can't let a Python post go without comment.

B A S is requiem!!

55 minutes ago, 48 Year Now said:

With respect i think you should have a look around the city and find some young people who are really struggling. That breaks my hesrt not men, who you call boys on multi $$$ deals playing professional sport .

Here is the situation

AFL introduces a 666

We do not have a defensive set up / structure to defend against it.

Likewise we do not have an offencive set up to score from it when it favours us.

St Kilda did.

And you dont think that is important.

Umm, you seem to be deflecting. GW was pointing out that the players do care about our horrible loss and season. Surely no one's claiming they're the unluckiest people on the planet.(!)

As to St Kilda's 666 "plan" could it simply be that Wanganeen-Millera knew he had a great chance of running inside 50 , and same as for many decades, the tactic of creating space can let a player be found separated from opponents? It could well be no team had a contingency plan for what fate dished up for either team last Sunday.

14 minutes ago, Go Ds said:

Umm, you seem to be deflecting. GW was pointing out that the players do care about our horrible loss and season. Surely no one's claiming they're the unluckiest people on the planet.(!)

As to St Kilda's 666 "plan" could it simply be that Wanganeen-Millera knew he had a great chance of running inside 50 , and same as for many decades, the tactic of creating space can let a player be found separated from opponents? It could well be no team had a contingency plan for what fate dished up for either team last Sunday.

Also when you watch the replay the umpire called our players including Max back to the centre which allowed Millera to break free.

1 hour ago, binman said:

I agree with much of that Bing

But id add that in my opinion there is little doubt we have not been sufficiently fit.

BUT it doesn't necessarily follow that that's all on the high-performance program. A huge amount of responsibility has to fall on the shoulders of the players.

To get to the comparative fitness advantage we had on the comp in 2021, the sort the Pies and Lions have had in the last 2 years requires all team 101% buy in and fierce desire to push beyond that.

Perhaps it's also between the ears with a critical mass of players thinking they are pushing to their limits but in fact not doing so.

An important impact of not being fit enough is how that intersects with the psychological aspect you are talking about.

Put simply people under fatigue are less likely to make good decisions and more likely to make what appear to be complete brain fades.

Surely almost every factor is the responsibility of both coaches AND players. If not that creates opportunities to avoid responsibility and the positive change, you rationally desire, doesn't happen.

This is not my wheelhouse. But I'd assume come the break after Mad Monday the coaches will at least give advice how to return for preseason reasonably fit and the players follow it. Actually on the same theme wouldn't players get instructions all the time for their weights program, cardio, nutrition and so forth ... and the players follow them? And don't clubs monitor a staggering amount of stuff? I'm sure players think they had their usual hard-running game until the GPS shows otherwise.

Anyway we do need to improve fitness. But unless players are deliberately cutting corners or being uncooperative it's incumbent on the coaches to help guide and redirect players towards those goals.

17 minutes ago, DeeZone said:

Also when you watch the replay the umpire called our players including Max back to the centre which allowed Millera to break free.

THIS!

I haven't trawled the countless pages, but I feel the umpires own confusion and poor (confiicting?) communication with eachother, and the players, has not been recognised in the blame laying. At the ground, it was drawn-out, back-and-forth chaos.

The other 30 minutes, however; well...

2 hours ago, Ghostwriter said:

Thank you, DZ. Of all days, yesterday was one where I couldn’t NOT turn up.

It’s not easy. It’s actually bloody hard. The looks on some of their faces broke my heart, especially the young boys. I wish all those who relentlessly bag our players could turn up to Gosch’s on a day like yesterday to see the hurt on their young faces.

Troy Chaplin and Chin were walking together and Troy said to me “I didn’t think you’d be here today.” Chin said “I did” and smiled. And that’s why I’ll always turn up.

Yep. I get people venting their spleen. Honestly at times I get the feeling some people only support a sports team just to whinge and moan. We won't stop this. I certainly screamed and swore at my TV as we lost the unlosable. But ultimately it's not constructive and I suspect most of the time damaging. No one needs to say a thing that the club and players don't already know. Often it's best to let people work through their problems in peace. Too bad that's impossible in this city's "AFL goldfish bowl" with now 24 hours a day commentary.

15 hours ago, Kev said:


They certainly aren't the feared midfield they used to be.
Goody played many of the squad out of there optimal positions as he looked for answer. Just hasn’t worked.
I remain optimistic.
Would love us to find a forward that becomes feared and produces consistently good performances.

The game style by other sides started to change in 22 and onwards, contested football down the line to contest was our strength, and not much high-quality skill by hand and foot, and quick running wasn't needed, now it is. We have been found out on all levels. The next four weeks should be about changing things up, but I doubt they will go too far with that.

29 minutes ago, Go Ds said:

Anyway we do need to improve fitness. But unless players are deliberately cutting corners or being uncooperative it's incumbent on the coaches to help guide and redirect players towards those goals.

Absolutely, i didn't mean to imply otherwise (though i was actually referring to the High-Performance team not coaches, though they of course have a role in the fitness space too).

I'm 100% not suggesting players are deliberately cutting corners or being uncooperative. What i am suggesting is that perhaps the entire playing list is not 100% dialled in that space and some might be thinking they are giving their all but in reality are not.

That was certainly the feedback from some players when Burgess first arrived - they thought Misson had them dialled up but soon realised they still had levels they could get to.

I'm to elite fitness to what the MFC is to good governance, but from what I've gleaned over the years the gap between optimal, super elite fitness and elite fitness can be very small and it's in those margins that all the difference is made.

That's true for a single elite athlete so one assumes that multiplied across 44 athletes the effect can be significant.

48 minutes ago, Go Ds said:

Umm, you seem to be deflecting. GW was pointing out that the players do care about our horrible loss and season. Surely no one's claiming they're the unluckiest people on the planet.(!)

As to St Kilda's 666 "plan" could it simply be that Wanganeen-Millera knew he had a great chance of running inside 50 , and same as for many decades, the tactic of creating space can let a player be found separated from opponents? It could well be no team had a contingency plan for what fate dished up for either team last Sunday.

3 minutes ago, binman said:

Absolutely, i didn't mean to imply otherwise (though i was actually referring to the High-Performance team not coaches, though they of course have a role in the fitness space too).

I'm 100% not suggesting players are deliberately cutting corners or being uncooperative. What i am suggesting is that perhaps the entire playing list is not 100% dialled in that space and some might be thinking they are giving their all but in reality are not.

That was certainly the feedback from some players when Burgess first arrived - they thought Misson had them dialled up but soon realised they still had levels they could get to.

I'm to elite fitness to what the MFC is to good governance, but from what I've gleaned over the years the gap between optimal, super elite fitness and elite fitness can be very small and it's in those margins that all the difference is made.

That's true for a single elite athlete so one assumes that multiplied across 44 athletes the effect can be significant.

Hmm, I would've still been scratching my head but assuming you're right about Misson I stand corrected. Obviously not everything a player does at home will be monitored. But I'm surprised with all the ways a player's ability and performance can be measured that much escapes a fitness coach.

1 hour ago, Go Ds said:

Umm, you seem to be deflecting. GW was pointing out that the players do care about our horrible loss and season. Surely no one's claiming they're the unluckiest people on the planet.(!)

As to St Kilda's 666 "plan" could it simply be that Wanganeen-Millera knew he had a great chance of running inside 50 , and same as for many decades, the tactic of creating space can let a player be found separated from opponents? It could well be no team had a contingency plan for what fate dished up for either team last Sunday.

Um, unluckiest people on the planet?

12 minutes ago, binman said:

I'm 100% not suggesting players are deliberately cutting corners or being uncooperative. What i am suggesting is that perhaps the entire playing list is not 100% dialled in that space and some might be thinking they are giving their all but in reality are not.

That was certainly the feedback from some players when Burgess first arrived - they thought Misson had them dialled up but soon realised they still had levels they could get to.

Great post binman.

I have a little theory on Burgo as well in that he somehow keeps the players up and going for a longer by communicating with them more and reminding them how much more they can really give.

I think I can recall footage of the 21GF where he was with the playing group (maybe on the bench) just telling them that they're all good and heaps more to give.

There is obviously physical restraints to all players fitness levels but there has to be some percentage of mental blocks at times preventing the extra 10-15% which can see teams improve incredibly.

Looking at the Crows this year and I see some resemblance to us in late 21. Players giving there all for longer and longer.

3 minutes ago, FireInTheBennelly said:

I thought that last quarter was the recovery session?

2 hours ago, Red But Mostly Blue said:

This is a great post, and some much needed focus/positivity.

Personally, I've never potted the players, their effort or commitment to the club. Nor have I asked/demanded Goody be sacked, although it's fair to ask whether he is the right man going forward (although there are many questions which need answering, to be fair) and must be asked as part of the current/planned 'review' (or re-review).

My greatest gripe right now is, as you say, with the governance. We have been a rabble for years and I am fearful that this will lead us to slide back down the relevance ladder again (after a brief, but enjoyable period at the top, back at the table, in conversations etc.), and it won't be stopped in time. It took us DECADES to become relevant again, with some good/lucky recruitment/trades etc. I'm disappointed with the review we did, its clearly failed implementation and the lack of regular reference to its findings/recommendations. No club with the 2024 we had, following that review, our strong list, comes out to start with an insipid 0-5. Except us. Very Melbourne.

I have been a diehard Dee since '88 when Jimmy and Garry came to my school and told me they'd win the flag that year (close, even if an ugly way to finish 2nd). Member for 21 years. This means so much to me, as it does so many on here. It's more than a club and more than a game. Even if that is weird to say, because ultimately it is just a bunch of people kicking the footy around. Sometimes really well.

So far all we have had is reviews for the sake of reviews and words for the sake of words. I never fully trust these boards because they are usually filled with self-interested people from power, who like to stay in power for the sake of power and prestige. And us little people, even if there are a few of us, never seem to displace that. Case in point, Peter Lawrence.

I'm sick of seeing the Cats, Hawks and Pies always floating back up to the top. In the Cats' case, staying there for 20+ years.

I don't want any more words. I want action. Real, tangible action. Will we get it though?

Much prefer to be a floater than a sinker.

4 hours ago, Go Ds said:

Surely no one's claiming they're the unluckiest people on the planet.(!)

2 hours ago, 48 Year Now said:

Um, unluckiest people on the planet?

Please @48 Year Now … read Go Ds post again. You seem to have misunderstood what was being said.

6 hours ago, binman said:

To get to the comparative fitness advantage we had on the comp in 2021, the sort the Pies and Lions have had in the last 2 years requires all team 101% buy in and fierce desire to push beyond that.

It also requires you to play a condensed season beforehand (2020) with fewer matches and shorter quarters. And in particular it requires you to miss the finals in the previous season so you have a longer break and both come back fresher and sort out any lingering injuries or issues. Knocking yourself around for another month in the hardest games of the year (finals) is one of the reasons it's so difficult to back up from premierships or even reaching the GF.

Coming into 2021 we had a dream run in terms of preparation compared to the teams who had played finals the previous year.

Edited yesterday at 08:421 day by bing181