2 hours ago, DistrACTION Jackson said:

I think we need to go hard at some players with talent at other clubs who can’t get a go due to positional strength. We need them to come in and have the ability to impact straight away, I don’t want to languish back down the bottom again!

For example, Leek Aleer was pick 15 in 2021 but can’t get a go at the Giants. At 23 he’s about to enter a great age for key position players and has extraordinary athletic ability.

I’m sure there are plenty more out there we can target, but if we get White and Sinnema through the draft we are still rebuilding with youth while trying to stay relevant!

The Giants have a ridiculous amount of depth. We need to raid as much as we can.

Yes that's what the smart recruiters do. Target a player specific to their needs who might be struggling for game time. Bedford & Meek are prime examples.

2 hours ago, DistrACTION Jackson said:

I think we need to go hard at some players with talent at other clubs who can’t get a go due to positional strength. We need them to come in and have the ability to impact straight away, I don’t want to languish back down the bottom again!

For example, Leek Aleer was pick 15 in 2021 but can’t get a go at the Giants. At 23 he’s about to enter a great age for key position players and has extraordinary athletic ability.

I’m sure there are plenty more out there we can target, but if we get White and Sinnema through the draft we are still rebuilding with youth while trying to stay relevant!

The Giants have a ridiculous amount of depth. We need to raid as much as we can.

Maybe they want to keep him as a mate for Wade Derksen in the Giants VFL team.

16 hours ago, chook fowler said:

It is really dispiriting to see ANB, Bedford, Jordan and Jackson all thriving in other Clubs. Makes me sick.

These 4 could easily be top 5 in the B&F for their clubs this year

20 minutes ago, goodwindees said:

I’ve been concerned that the Club has not given themselves the chance to recruit some of those real gems that are very often found with Picks 25 and beyond through their regular strategy of paying very generously to get back earlier in the draft.

To those few on this site that possess the time and great analytical skills, I’d be fascinated to see a report on what the Club gave away to select these players.

For example, what players could Melbourne have selected that were available at each of the picks they gave away for Tholstrup.

Not the players that were selected with the corresponding picks, more importantly, who was available?

Only selected Tholstrup due to that selection now having had some time to look at it.

I think Kossie was another who was taken in this manner, apart from these two and Xavier Lindsay, are there any others?

I think this analysis might demonstrate why the list lacks depth, and is very unbalanced with nowhere near enough truly athletic players.

I suspect some will say that you can’t assume that our recruiters would have selected the best players available at all those picks, but I would prefer for JT to have those picks rather than filling those spots with a host of discarded players.

Just had a quick look at a few players.

Humphries Geelong pick 63 Sam De Koning 19 Tom De Koning 30 Zach Merrett 26. Couple of Irish boys at cats. Tom Stewart mature age player in a suburban league.

Here is the 2021 draft as an example after pick 20.

21	Matthew Johnson	Fremantle	Subiaco	WAFL	←Gold Coast (priority pick)
22	Josh Goater	North Melbourne	Calder Cannons	NAB League
23	Sam Butler	Hawthorn	GWV Rebels	NAB League	←Collingwood (2020)
24	Toby Conway	Geelong	Geelong Falcons	NAB League	←Fremantle←Collingwood←Gold Coast
25	Mitch Knevitt	Geelong	Geelong Falcons	NAB League	←Western Bulldogs (draft)←Adelaide
26	Connor MacDonald	Hawthorn	Dandenong Stingrays	NAB League
27	Jesse Motlop	Carlton	South Fremantle	WAFL
28	Tyler Sonsie	Richmond	Eastern Ranges	NAB League
29	Sam Banks	Richmond	Tasmania Devils	NAB League	←Collingwood←Fremantle
30	Judson Clarke	Richmond	Dandenong Stingrays	NAB League	←St Kilda (2020)
31	Brady Hough	West Coast	Peel Thunder	WAFL
32	James Willis	Geelong	North Adelaide	SANFL	←Greater Western Sydney (2020)←Essendon (2020)
33	Mitchito Owens	St Kilda	Sandringham Dragons	NAB League	Next Generation Academy selection (Japanese descent), matched bid by Sydney, used picks 48 and 54 [140]
34	Matthew Roberts	Sydney	South Adelaide	SANFL
35	Paul Curtis	North Melbourne	Western Jets	NAB League	←Western Bulldogs (draft)←Geelong (draft)←Greater Western Sydney (2020)
36	Jake Soligo	Adelaide	Eastern Ranges	NAB League	←Melbourne←Brisbane Lions (2020)
37	Rhett Bazzo	West Coast	Swan Districts	WAFL	←Sydney (2020)←Port Adelaide (2020)
38	Miller Bergman	North Melbourne	Dandenong Stingrays	NAB League	←Collingwood (draft)←Western Bulldogs (2020)
39	Blake Howes	Melbourne	Sandringham Dragons	NAB League	←Adelaide←Melbourne (2020)
3	40	Corey Warner	Sydney	East Fremantle	WAFL	Free agency compensation pick (Hewett)
	41	James Tunstill	Brisbane Lions	East Perth	WAFL	←Geelong←Collingwood
	42	Josh Fahey	Greater Western Sydney	Queanbeyan Tigers	AFL Canberra	Academy selection, matched bid by Western Bulldogs, used picks 47 and 89 [141]
	43	Arthur Jones	Western Bulldogs	Claremont	WAFL	←North Melbourne (draft)←Richmond←Gold Coast (2020)
	44	Zac Taylor	Adelaide	Calder Cannons	NAB League	←Melbourne (draft)←St Kilda
	45	Arlo Draper	Collingwood	South Adelaide	SANFL
	46	Alastair Lord	Essendon	Norwood	SANFL
	47	Marcus Windhager	St Kilda	Sandringham Dragons	NAB League	Next Generation Academy selection (Indigenous), matched bid by Geelong, used pick 57 [142]
	48	Flynn Kroeger	Geelong	Eastern Ranges	NAB League	←Brisbane Lions←West Coast (2020)
	49	Cooper Murley	Collingwood	Norwood	SANFL	←North Melbourne (draft)←Western Bulldogs (draft)←Carlton←West Coast←Sydney (2020)
	50	Garrett McDonagh	Essendon	Richmond	VFL	←Port Adelaide (2020)
	51	Oscar Adams	St Kilda	Glenelg	SANFL	←Melbourne (draft)←Western Bulldogs (2020)
	52	Harvey Harrison	Collingwood	North Adelaide	SANFL	←Gold Coast←Geelong (2020)←Brisbane Lions (2020)←Melbourne (2020)
4	53	Jai Serong	Hawthorn	Gippsland Power	NAB League	←Melbourne (2020)←North Melbourne (2020)
	54	Eric 'Roy' Benning	Fremantle	Claremont	WAFL	Next Generation Academy selection (Indigenous) ←Gold Coast
	55	Hugh Jackson	Port Adelaide	North Adelaide	SANFL	←Adelaide (2020)←Hawthorn (2020)
	56	Dante Visentini	Port Adelaide	Sandringham Dragons	NAB League	←Carlton (draft)
	57	Jack Williams	West Coast	East Fremantle	WAFL
	58	Lachlan Rankin	Sydney	Oakleigh Chargers	NAB League
	59	Jackson Archer	North Melbourne	Northern Knights	NAB League	Father–son selection (son of Glenn Archer) ←Melbourne (2020)←Brisbane Lions (2020)
	60	Jase Burgoyne	Port Adelaide	Woodville-West Torrens	SANFL	Father–son selection (son of Peter Burgoyne) ←Collingwood (2020)←Greater Western Sydney (2020)←Geelong (2020)
	61	Luke Cleary	Western Bulldogs	Sandringham Dragons	NAB League
	62	Greg Clark	West Coast	Subiaco	WAFL	←Port Adelaide (draft)
	63	Charlie Constable	Gold Coast	Geelong	AFL
	64	Cooper Whyte	Geelong	Geelong Falcons	NAB League
	65	Taj Woewodin	Melbourne	East Fremantle	WAFL	Father–son selection (son of Shane Woewodin)

So you are quite correct, there are plenty of players outside the top 20 or so picks in the draft each year and it depends what you prioritize and how good your recruiters are.

Edited yesterday at 03:151 day by Redleg

19 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Maybe they want to keep him as a mate for Wade Derksen in the Giants VFL team.

It sounds like he’s leaving and obviously Derksen we liked last year. Maybe we will go for both this off season.

53 minutes ago, goodwindees said:

I’ve been concerned that the Club has not given themselves the chance to recruit some of those real gems that are very often found with Picks 25 and beyond through their regular strategy of paying very generously to get back earlier in the draft.

To those few on this site that possess the time and great analytical skills, I’d be fascinated to see a report on what the Club gave away to select these players.

For example, what players could Melbourne have selected that were available at each of the picks they gave away for Tholstrup.

Not the players that were selected with the corresponding picks, more importantly, who was available?

Only selected Tholstrup due to that selection now having had some time to look at it.

I think Kossie was another who was taken in this manner, apart from these two and Xavier Lindsay, are there any others?

I think this analysis might demonstrate why the list lacks depth, and is very unbalanced with nowhere near enough truly athletic players.

I suspect some will say that you can’t assume that our recruiters would have selected the best players available at all those picks, but I would prefer for JT to have those picks rather than filling those spots with a host of discarded players.

If I'm looking at the trade correctly, we traded 14, 27 and 35 to Gold Coast for their pick 11, which we used on Tholstrup.

Players who were picked from 18 onwards (pick 14 became 18 due to academy and f/s), who weren't also academy and f/s, and who have debuted so far, are Darcy Wilson, Wil Dawson, Riley Hardeman, Lance Collard, Archer Reid, Angus Hastie, Cooper Simpson, Shaun Mannagh, Tew Jiath, Clay Hall, Kane McAuliffe, Liam Fawcett, Joe Fonti, Joel Freijah, Harvey Johnston, Hugh Garcia, Archie Roberts, Will Lorenz, Arie Schoenmakers and Lawson Humphries.

To clarify my position in starting the thread

1. The club through 2016-2020 targeted players that could come in and make the team immediately better. They were playing 1sts senior footy at other AFLclubs. They were part of our premiership team in 2021. It proved successful. Blend early draft choices and add in senior ready to go requirements.

2. We then from 2021-24 have recruited players on the wane or who were failed players at other clubs. Why? Some say because of salary cap. If a tight cap was the reason, I’d rather have taken the punt at the draft and let JT weave his magic & pickup quality kids (yes even in the 2nd and 3rd rounds) or give some VFL players the chance, like we did with Fritsch (2017).

3. I think JT has done a great job in drafting in talent. Lots of 1st rounders and he has done a great job barring a few misses. There’s no knock on him. Sometimes I think we didn’t give him more chances in the 2nd and 3rd round to pickup gems.

1 hour ago, goodwindees said:

For example, what players could Melbourne have selected that were available at each of the picks they gave away for Tholstrup.

tholstrup traded was effectively two wilson's for one Kolt

darcy wilson is a ripper for the aints; billy wilson is yet to debut for the baggers

i presume 35 was sucked up into points to ensure gw$ could get an academy kid; players of note who were drafted after that point:

• shane mannagh - pick 36 as a mature ager to the cats

• joel freijah - pick 45 to footscray

• hugo garcia - pick pick 50 to the aints

• lawson humphries - pick 63 (second last pick in the national draft!) to the cats

3 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

as an example, aleer is a target for about 5 different vic clubs and will command significant coin for a player who, thus far, hasn't got much afl experience under his belt

it will be interesting to see what his decision is if he still can't crack a very settled gw$ defence for the remainder of 2025

I'm sure he is, but hopefully we are right in the fight because we just have to replenish the list and cutting everyone and sitting at the bottom for 5 years is not a good strategy anymore.

We really miss MIchael Hibberd a fast lockdown defender with dare and mongrel

Goodwin kills careers. Hopeless at developing players

Jordon, Bedford, Petty, Sparrow, Woewodin, Brown, Fullerton, howes, Adams, Laurie, van Rooyen

There aren't 3 players that have shown growth and improvement over the past 27 games (1st yr players excluded). Not 3. That's where our problem is. And that is on the coach

And our leaders? Well they can't lead thats for sure. Word salad answers, no actions

About the only one of the senior players that can hold his head up is TMac

Compare our bottom six players (in our best 23) during our premiership year, to the bottom six now. I firmly believe that premierships and success come from having a very solid bottom six to 10 players.

2 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

tholstrup traded was effectively two wilson's for one Kolt

darcy wilson is a ripper for the aints; billy wilson is yet to debut for the baggers

i presume 35 was sucked up into points to ensure gw$ could get an academy kid; players of note who were drafted after that point:

• shane mannagh - pick 36 as a mature ager to the cats

• joel freijah - pick 45 to footscray

• hugo garcia - pick pick 50 to the aints

• lawson humphries - pick 63 (second last pick in the national draft!) to the cats

So short of the Dogs plucking one from nowhere in Freijah and Geelong doing what Geelong do better than anyone in finding mature age and obscure players the draft has proven exceptionally weak after 30.

I’d prefer to treat the draft as a lottery and buy more tickets than we have been in recent years but I get why we trusted JT’s

Also note that only Adelaide gave up a future 2nd in the Curtin deal as part of a draft day trade, no one traded back in to 2nd round of 2023’s draft. Every club was aligned that it was no good.

22 hours ago, manny100 said:

At our best we had big BBB playing well as a legitimate target and lead up very tall forward. He made it easier for others.

After he finished up we tried Petty up forward and for various reasons including injury, lack of form, confidence it just did not work.

I think that huge quality KPF is what we lack.

Whether JVR, Jeffo or Turner can evolve into that role?

They do not grow on trees.

We did recruit Fullarton for this role but have yet to try him despite recent good VFL performances. Will we roll the dice this week? Will we give him a decent run in not an immediate success?

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

We really miss MIchael Hibberd a fast lockdown defender with dare and mongrel

Goodwin kills careers. Hopeless at developing players

Jordon, Bedford, Petty, Sparrow, Woewodin, Brown, Fullerton, howes, Adams, Laurie, van Rooyen

There aren't 3 players that have shown growth and improvement over the past 27 games (1st yr players excluded). Not 3. That's where our problem is. And that is on the coach

And our leaders? Well they can't lead thats for sure. Word salad answers, no actions

About the only one of the senior players that can hold his head up is TMac

Goodwin developed our entire premiership team and you’re upset he can’t make anything out of a bunch of guys who aren’t good?

There’s a separate conversation about JJ and Bedford and lack of turnover of the team in 2022/2023. Mistakes made then that we are paying for now.

Anyone who watched JJ and Toby at their first year at Casey wouldn’t be questioning the coaches ability to develop players. Those 2 were absolutely nowhere near AFL at the beginning of their careers.

10 minutes ago, monoccular said:

We did recruit Fullarton for this role but have yet to try him despite recent good VFL performances. Will we roll the dice this week? Will we give him a decent run in not an immediate success?

Goals were good but he got smashed but Kreuger in any genuine aerial contest. Don’t expect him to come in.

2 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

tholstrup traded was effectively two wilson's for one Kolt

darcy wilson is a ripper for the aints; billy wilson is yet to debut for the baggers

i presume 35 was sucked up into points to ensure gw$ could get an academy kid; players of note who were drafted after that point:

• shane mannagh - pick 36 as a mature ager to the cats

• joel freijah - pick 45 to footscray

• hugo garcia - pick pick 50 to the aints

• lawson humphries - pick 63 (second last pick in the national draft!) to the cats

3 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

To clarify my position in starting the thread

1. The club through 2016-2020 targeted players that could come in and make the team immediately better. They were playing 1sts senior footy at other AFLclubs. They were part of our premiership team in 2021. It proved successful. Blend early draft choices and add in senior ready to go requirements.

2. We then from 2021-24 have recruited players on the wane or who were failed players at other clubs. Why? Some say because of salary cap. If a tight cap was the reason, I’d rather have taken the punt at the draft and let JT weave his magic & pickup quality kids (yes even in the 2nd and 3rd rounds) or give some VFL players the chance, like we did with Fritsch (2017).

3. I think JT has done a great job in drafting in talent. Lots of 1st rounders and he has done a great job barring a few misses. There’s no knock on him. Sometimes I think we didn’t give him more chances in the 2nd and 3rd round to pickup gems.

Your Point 3 is exactly what I’m saying.

This is no knock on Kossie Pickett, Tholstrup & Xavier Lindsay, but the issue is that when you end up giving so many reasonable draft picks to pick up just 3 players, you are sacrificing depth as well as denying yourself the option of selecting a number of the the type of young players that you need to invest in to develop a well balanced list.

It also really hurts your depth when one of those players is so often suspended, and Tholstrup is suffering a medium term injury.

Consider that in 2025 Kossie has played once and Tholstrup not at all. That’s effectively no return for all those Kossie & Tholstrup picks.

5 minutes ago, goodwindees said:

Your Point 3 is exactly what I’m saying.

This is no knock on Kossie Pickett, Tholstrup & Xavier Lindsay, but the issue is that when you end up giving so many reasonable draft picks to pick up just 3 players, you are sacrificing depth as well as denying yourself the option of selecting a number of the the type of young players that you need to invest in to develop a well balanced list.

It also really hurts your depth when one of those players is so often suspended, and Tholstrup is suffering a medium term injury.

Consider that in 2025 Kossie has played once and Tholstrup not at all. That’s effectively no return for all those Kossie & Tholstrup picks.

Sure, but the majority of very good players come from that top 20, so IMV our strategy is still better than quantity over quality.

Of course, we could be more aggressive in our trading too. End of this year we could trade out Clarry/Trac, Kozzy and Fritta and give ourselves 5-6 first round picks.

I don't advocate it necessarily, but there's only so much you can do with your recruiting and the picks you have at your disposal.

Edited 21 hours ago21 hr by Adam The God

Leek Alir wanted $750,000 a year to move club, not bad for someone who is not getting a game. If we wanted to get a cheap mid why didn't we go after McCrae ex doggie. He is playing well for the Saints.

Think how much pressure would be put on our current mids however Goody is reluctant to drop out of form players. We could of had Hogan and Ginnivan , forget about the past we need our team to win games an mae our team strong again. Why were the Swans good for a long time ? Good coaches ( Longmire ) ,good draft picks , people want to play for the club not ours. The Hawks rebuild are a success, they go after the right sort of players and they produce good reserves sides ,again people want to play for them. We have to improve or implement a system that can advance our reserve players so as they can be rewarded for playing well. Pup went from hero in his brief stint into the seniors then he was dropped. How many players have improved at the club in the last 2 years ,nil McVee breaks even. Goody shooting his mouth about Fritta being on notice and Petracca not happy because his brand is tarnished does make or a happy footy club. Surely we could pick up young delisted mids from other clubs ?

Just now, junk said:

Leek Alir wanted $750,000 a year to move club, not bad for someone who is not getting a game. If we wanted to get a cheap mid why didn't we go after McCrae ex doggie. He is playing well for the Saints.

Think how much pressure would be put on our current mids however Goody is reluctant to drop out of form players. We could of had Hogan and Ginnivan , forget about the past we need our team to win games an mae our team strong again. Why were the Swans good for a long time ? Good coaches ( Longmire ) ,good draft picks , people want to play for the club not ours. The Hawks rebuild are a success, they go after the right sort of players and they produce good reserves sides ,again people want to play for them. We have to improve or implement a system that can advance our reserve players so as they can be rewarded for playing well. Pup went from hero in his brief stint into the seniors then he was dropped. How many players have improved at the club in the last 2 years ,nil McVee breaks even. Goody shooting his mouth about Fritta being on notice and Petracca not happy because his brand is tarnished does make or a happy footy club. Surely we could pick up young delisted mids from other clubs ?

MaCrae’s knock is his disposal, I’m not sure we could justify another poor disposer.

2 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

Sure, but the majority of very good players come from that top 20, so IMV our strategy is still better than quantity over quality.

Well, the current evidence is that it isn’t working. No depth, and the list lacks balance due to a severe lack of quick, skilful, athletic types.

There is no apparent heir to Max, and no big young forward like a Treacy from Fremantle & Ollie Lord from PA who are just two examples that were taken with late picks.

You won’t be a genuine top 4 team with a team of 6 A Graders and a bunch of C Graders and NQR’s.

9 hours ago, ANG13 said:

Yes and sadly we fell for it.

Consider we let Jordan& Harmes go and Hunter retired, Schache delisted , how is this improving the list ??

Edited 20 hours ago20 hr by Demonsone

13 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

Sure, but the majority of very good players come from that top 20, so IMV our strategy is still better than quantity over quality.

I agree but I did think coughing up picks 14, 27, 35 to get pick 11 and Tholstrup was just a little too cute. I assumed it was Lamb making those calls and negating Jason Taylor’s ability to identify talent in those second & third rounds of the draft. Given where the game was headed in 2023 it was obvious that we needed more leg speed and kicking skills on the list.

Handing over our future first, 28,40,46, 54,65 for pick 9 to get XL last year is seeking quality over quantity. It will take a few seasons to evaluate the cost-benefit of this strategy. But that future first to Essendon (given we might end up on the ladder) could turn out to be extremely embarrassing for the club no matter how good a player XL becomes.

19 minutes ago, goodwindees said:

You won’t be a genuine top 4 team with a team of 6 A Graders and a bunch of C Graders and NQR’s.

Agree. Fortunately, we would still have 10 or so premiership players on the list even if we trade out those aforementioned players. And we're, I'd argue, 2-3 years into a list reset already having got 4 very good young players into the club.

We're not starting from ground zero (ala 2012-2013).

I agree with the view that our recruiting of mature players since the flag has been rubbish.

Something I haven’t seen mentioned is the fact that we have the league’s worst facilities. A shed and a fairly scruffy oval in the city and a barely AFL standard facility out in the boonies.

I’m sure it plays into players decision making, particularly if they are in demand and have some choice.

2 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

Sure, but the majority of very good players come from that top 20, so IMV our strategy is still better than quantity over quality.

Well, the current evidence is that it isn’t working. No depth, and the list lacks balance due to a severe lack of quick, skilful, athletic types.

There is no apparent heir to Max, and no big young forward like a Treacy from Fremantle & Ollie Lord from PA who are just two examples that were taken with late picks.

You won’t be a genuine top 4 team with a team of 6 A Graders and a bunch of C Graders and NQR’s.

5 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

I agree but I did think coughing up picks 14, 27, 35 to get pick 11 and Tholstrup was just a little too cute. I assumed it was Lamb making those calls and negating Jason Taylor’s ability to identify talent in those second & third rounds of the draft. Given where the game was headed in 2023 it was obvious that we needed more leg speed and kicking skills on the list.

Handing over our future first, 28,40,46, 54,65 for pick 9 to get XL last year is seeking quality over quantity. It will take a few seasons to evaluate the cost-benefit of this strategy. But that future first to Essendon (given we might end up on the ladder) could turn out to be extremely embarrassing for the club no matter how good a player XL becomes.

Xavier Lindsay looks like he’ll be a beauty, but he’ll need to be an exceptional player to be able to say in 10 years that it was a good deal for Melbourne.

However, my point is that the list is so lacking in depth & balance, that even if XL turns out to be 300 game A Grader, Dees can’t be giving those picks for one player.

When you do that, you really are scraping the bottom of the barrel to top up your list.