Hawks Rebuild

[spirit of norm smith 15,059]

20 minutes ago, praha said:

Something very Melbourne 1987 about them. Would not be surprised if they make the Grand Final

 

So they lose in the preliminary final in a cruel ending after the siren … and after missing 4/5 shots for goal !!! 

[hardtack 10,398]

1 hour ago, Moonshadow said:

Their disposal, particularly by foot, is exceptional.

I think it’s their running patterns… they’re just so outside the ‘box’, that opposition teams cannot predict where the ball will go next, so Hawks players seem to be always leading into open space.

[Swooper1987 3,204]

3 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

So they lose in the preliminary final in a cruel ending after the siren … and after missing 4/5 shots for goal !!! 

None of the teams they'd be playing in a prelim would be anywhere near as good as the Hawks of that era.  If they make a prelim I reckon they make a GF!

[DeeSpencer 24,682]

1 hour ago, Little Goffy said:

The contrast of course is with Billlings, McAdam, Hunter, Smith and Schache, who were acquired or retained in the hope that they would provide immediate 'adequate' cover, where bringing in another late draft pick could only offer the possibility of being good in a few years. Of course, prior to that the strategy was a key part of winning a premiership because it took us to having a complete team.

When the Hawks were up they messed around with Scully, Patton type guys.

But they also got highly rated players for cheap in Impey and Scrimshaw and stashed them away until they were good again.

What hurts is we went hard for Karl Amon and Lloyd Meek. I think we got really close to getting both of them. 

Chol got paid a fortune, I hope we wanted him but I understand if we couldn’t do the price. I hope we had a go at D’Ambrosio too, Essendon, what on earth!

[Adam The God 29,292]

1 hour ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Dees were guarding grass and hoped their zone would cause turnovers.  Hawks applied pressure to the man at the contest and tackled to cause turnovers.  Simple game footy.  Wish Goody sat next to me so I could point it out.  The zone defence style is dead.  Watch the Freo games x2!!!! 

You're kidding right? Absolutely no way zone defence is dead.

[monoccular 17,305]

30 minutes ago, spirit of norm smith said:

So they lose in the preliminary final in a cruel ending after the siren … and after missing 4/5 shots for goal !!! 

… after one of them misstep” on the ludicrous stand rule  by one millimetre at half back when they are leading by a few points when the siren blows.  “Very generous” 50 meter penalty and another 50 because. Gingivitis rolls his eyes in dissent. Goal.  

Edited September 7 by monoccular

[DeeSpencer 24,682]

17 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

You're kidding right? Absolutely no way zone defence is dead.

Yep that’s crazy.

We have tweaks to make. Our wingers often just guard too much non dangerous grass and the handovers between wings, half forwards and half backs has been really poor at times.

But the biggest factor is our mids and half back aren’t spreading to get in position quick enough. Our half forwards don’t drop outside 5 enough either. Plus a lack of energy and movement in the zone in general. 

Overall tho the Hawks are rolling out a very similar zone to us and doing it very well.

[Lexinator 1,494]

Hawks are now ready to hit the trade now and get ready-made players. I was very impressed how much speed they were able to generate on ball movement last night. They spread well and have a great ability to draw multiple opponents, flick a few hand passes and away they go with speed and loose players. Their ball movement from defence to attack is amazing. I remember there was a play late in game where they switched from half back, and started going down members wing side and 2 hawks were demanding the ball for another switch into the middle again, but were ignored. They are working their butts off to spread and move into good positions in space. They do well at switching angles slightly with short 15-30 metres kicks that confuse opposition zones, getting through with waves of runnings or small kicks. Very attractive looking football to watch.

[Dante 2,704]

I said some weeks ago, quite a few, that Hawthorn would win a flag before we do, I got a face palm but I think the person that gave it to me would be embarrassed now.

We have Jason Taylor, who has provided us with some really good talent but we have, lately, picked some gap fillers who are just not up to it. Not only that, but we've hung on to them. Not sure if there is a disconnect between the coach and the football department but the refusal to play Schacke or Fullarton when a player of that type was desperately needed was nothing short of bizzare.

[The heart beats true 17,737]

3 hours ago, adonski said:

Mostly B graders playing above themselves

This is the key to a successful year in the modern era. Most teams can afford, and have set themselves up around, 3-4 really good players. If your B graders all have a great year at once you can rise quickly.

But the reverse is also true.

[Adam The God 29,292]

28 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Yep that’s crazy.

We have tweaks to make. Our wingers often just guard too much non dangerous grass and the handovers between wings, half forwards and half backs has been really poor at times.

But the biggest factor is our mids and half back aren’t spreading to get in position quick enough. Our half forwards don’t drop outside 5 enough either. Plus a lack of energy and movement in the zone in general. 

Overall tho the Hawks are rolling out a very similar zone to us and doing it very well.

A further point on the zone defence, I think our wingers could be more attacking if our key backs were more agile in attack.

Don't get me wrong, our zone defence is great and all our key backs and half backs are masters of knowing when to roll forward and back, and trusting each other. Chaplin has done an excellent job for many years now.

But I think your point about our wingers, DS, is in part because May and Lever, whilst they're not slow to join in on attack, they're a more moulded as traditional defenders.

This is why I'm really excited by the likes of Riak Andrew and even Kalani White if he stays back.

You've got explosive, agile defenders that naturally want to take the game on.

I think if Petty takes the lockdown role that May will vacate in 2-3 years, and Lever will still be around too, but I'd want to get more explosiveness from the third tall, and the back pockets and half backs.

If you're backs are more attacking, it forces your wingers forward or potentially even in behind your defenders to cover the space that has been vacated by an aggressive counter attack from our backs.

I think what we need is a new ball movement line coach that utilises the zone and trust that Chaplin has built within the defensive system, to gamble more with ball use off half back. This then requires some guys who we think can play the distributor roles. 

If we kept McVee and Rivers behind the ball, tried to draft two mids in the top 20 (say Langford/Lalor and Hynes) and added some experienced depth from other clubs, we'd then have some good explosiveness off half back, but adding a Houston to that mix would be incredible.

If it was FIFA, you'd consider trading Salo, but I think what we'd get in return is limited and potentially undermine team harmony (further). So maybe Salo, McVee and Rivers are enough.

My sense is that we're not actually going to be too aggressive with our trading, and perhaps we should be?

[SPC 3,475]

2 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Dees were guarding grass and hoped their zone would cause turnovers.  Hawks applied pressure to the man at the contest and tackled to cause turnovers.  Simple game footy.  Wish Goody sat next to me so I could point it out.  The zone defence style is dead.  Watch the Freo games x2!!!! 

Our zone is what won us a flag, but it’s what makes us so susceptible to fast sides with great kicking skills. We cannot defend grass. Hopefully our brains trust are going to town on what the next 2-3 years of Gamestyle will look like and drill it in day one of preseason.

Hawks are all about ground ball and tacking, that is where I’d start as we are a poor tackling side and we fumble.

[Sir Why You Little 36,585]

1 minute ago, SPC said:

Our zone is what won us a flag, but it’s what makes us so susceptible to fast sides with great kicking skills. We cannot defend grass. Hopefully our brains trust are going to town on what the next 2-3 years of Gamestyle will look like and drill it in day one of preseason.

Hawks are all about ground ball and tacking, that is where I’d start as we are a poor tackling side and we fumble.

Interesting observation. I have only watched the Mini Match of last nights game, so i understand i am only seeing the best bits, but what i did notice was Hawks players “one grab” the ball and go, no fumbles and no second guessing, just go. 
The MFC definitely need to get more of that in their game

September pressure and skill goes up 10% on Home & Away every year, without fail. 
 

 

[DeeSpencer 24,682]

40 minutes ago, Dante said:

I said some weeks ago, quite a few, that Hawthorn would win a flag before we do, I got a face palm but I think the person that gave it to me would be embarrassed now.

We have Jason Taylor, who has provided us with some really good talent but we have, lately, picked some gap fillers who are just not up to it. Not only that, but we've hung on to them. Not sure if there is a disconnect between the coach and the football department but the refusal to play Schacke or Fullarton when a player of that type was desperately needed was nothing short of bizzare.

Scache 🤣🤣🤣🤣
 

the problem was having him on the list, not not playing him 

Edited September 7 by DeeSpencer

[Ted Lasso 18,742]

1 hour ago, Adam The God said:

You're kidding right? Absolutely no way zone defence is dead.

I would think Zone would be the most common defensive structure across not just AFL but virtually every team sport globally?

[Adam The God 29,292]

The under 19 ammos might play man on man, no zone, but even my under 12 Euro handball team plays a zone.

[OhMyDees 1,824]

Hawthorn forward line recruiting in the off season = unreal.

Chol 35 goals, Ginni 25, Watson 18.

Melbourne 

Fullarton 0, McAdams 1 

Lol🙄

[The heart beats true 17,737]

15 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

The under 19 ammos might play man on man, no zone, but even my under 12 Euro handball team plays a zone.

You still play under 12’s? Aren’t the other kids a bit suspicious?

[spirit of norm smith 15,059]

28 minutes ago, SPC said:

Our zone is what won us a flag, but it’s what makes us so susceptible to fast sides with great kicking skills. We cannot defend grass. Hopefully our brains trust are going to town on what the next 2-3 years of Gamestyle will look like and drill it in day one of preseason.

Hawks are all about ground ball and tacking, that is where I’d start as we are a poor tackling side and we fumble.

Clubs worked out the zone within a short period of time. They also worked out not kicking high to May and Lever.  

[Sir Why You Little 36,585]

6 minutes ago, OhMyDees said:

Hawthorn forward line recruiting in the off season = unreal.

Chol 35 goals, Ginni 25, Watson 18.

Melbourne 

Fullarton 0, McAdams 1 

Lol🙄

Says so much….

[DeeSpencer 24,682]

46 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

A further point on the zone defence, I think our wingers could be more attacking if our key backs were more agile in attack.

Don't get me wrong, our zone defence is great and all our key backs and half backs are masters of knowing when to roll forward and back, and trusting each other. Chaplin has done an excellent job for many years now.

But I think your point about our wingers, DS, is in part because May and Lever, whilst they're not slow to join in on attack, they're a more moulded as traditional defenders.

This is why I'm really excited by the likes of Riak Andrew and even Kalani White if he stays back.

You've got explosive, agile defenders that naturally want to take the game on.

I think if Petty takes the lockdown role that May will vacate in 2-3 years, and Lever will still be around too, but I'd want to get more explosiveness from the third tall, and the back pockets and half backs.

If you're backs are more attacking, it forces your wingers forward or potentially even in behind your defenders to cover the space that has been vacated by an aggressive counter attack from our backs.

I think what we need is a new ball movement line coach that utilises the zone and trust that Chaplin has built within the defensive system, to gamble more with ball use off half back. This then requires some guys who we think can play the distributor roles. 

If we kept McVee and Rivers behind the ball, tried to draft two mids in the top 20 (say Langford/Lalor and Hynes) and added some experienced depth from other clubs, we'd then have some good explosiveness off half back, but adding a Houston to that mix would be incredible.

If it was FIFA, you'd consider trading Salo, but I think what we'd get in return is limited and potentially undermine team harmony (further). So maybe Salo, McVee and Rivers are enough.

My sense is that we're not actually going to be too aggressive with our trading, and perhaps we should be?

3 talls who offer nothing in attack is a worry. It’s why Tommy Mc was vital this year and partly why Petty stayed forward.

May has lost his confidence to run but can still do more. Petty has the skills, just a matter if he has the mindset. Lever tried more this year, he was a great linking handballer when we got him but has always been prone to a shank by foot.

I’d change Chaplin’s line role because I just don’t trust him to change. He was a slow ball user when he played.

I’m the patron saint for trading Fritsch for similar reasons at the other end of the ground so I can’t be against trading Salo. But it comes down to return and options. And mostly whether they believe Salo can get fit and get his burst back.

If Rivers can stay back then Riv, Judd, Bowey, Howes and if he gets fit AMW can be backed in to transform the backline. But we need at least 2 ready to play mids (or half backs) to make that viable. So I doubt it will.

Whether we are aggressive with trades out or not we have to at least take some swings on hard running players. Billings, Fullarton and McAdam doesn’t look good right now they were all moves to attempt to fix certain deficiencies. Multi year deals and draft picks for McAdam both not ideal but we’ll have the list spots to try again.

[DeeSpencer 24,682]

8 minutes ago, OhMyDees said:

Hawthorn forward line recruiting in the off season = unreal.

Chol 35 goals, Ginni 25, Watson 18.

Melbourne 

Fullarton 0, McAdams 1 

Lol🙄

Tried to trade up for Watson. Probably didn’t have the cash for Chol. Rather lose every week than have Ginnivan. 

Edited September 7 by DeeSpencer

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,307]

10 minutes ago, OhMyDees said:

Hawthorn forward line recruiting in the off season = unreal.

Chol 35 goals, Ginni 25, Watson 18.

Melbourne 

Fullarton 0, McAdams 1 

Lol🙄

And that 1 combined goal between Fullarton and McAdam was from the goal square.

[Deemania since 56 6,547]

4 hours ago, Colm said:

Yeah it’s all about the coaching and development I think.

Could not agree more! I still think we have a better current (and incoming from Casey) list than the Hawks but the work done by their coaching team and play advisors is far superior to that of the MFC. New boss at the top is very pleasing and I hope his influence is heeded down the line to the height of the cut grass. 

[Watson11 2,195]

2 hours ago, Adam The God said:

You're kidding right? Absolutely no way zone defence is dead.

Zone defence through the middle of the ground in the absence of F50 pressure is absolutely dead.  

Mitchell killed it against us in 2022. He is an absolutely elite coach even though the stats are yet to demonstrate it.