53 minutes ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Yet some will say both Hawthorn and Collingwood have been less arrogant and their culture improved with both Kennett and Maguire moving on

Right you like a run and hide president, I hate people who are only behind you when everything is great, and leave you blowing in the wind, in the hard times, the players can feel her fakeness, but with woke people women can do no wrong 

12 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

So rather than reflect on the reason this team has under performed for 5 of the last 6 seasons (and 6 of the last 8 really) and identify where we need to improve as a club to get to the level we want to be, you're willing to write it off as just bad luck?

Seems like head in the sand stuff to me, excuses which foster a poor culture.

I think the issue is we are looking at culture from different angles. You're looking at it from the point of view of the happiness, for lack of a better word, of the players - their relationships with each other and the coaches. On this measure I think we are quite good, at least that is the commentary in the media from players/ex-players. However I'm looking at culture as the driving force to get the best out of the players/club, a high performance environment that is built for success. On this measure I think our culture isn't great, we don't have the killer instinct needed for sustained success in elite sport.

The results speak for themselves, you can blame one year of underperforming on bad luck but you can't blame 75% of the last 8 years or last 4 years on bad luck. There will always be unfortunate variables impacting teams but the good ones roll with the punches and get on with it, they don't make excuses for poor results. Injuries, inaccuracy, weather, opponents, travel, fatigue whatever it is it is just excuses in the long run. And making excuses is weak in my view.

I told you what I thought good culture was. As you asked. Is losing gus Brayshaw culture or luck? We wouldn’t have got rid of Jordan or harmes if the timing was different, so there’s luck there. Is losing Jackson to homesickness and immaturity luck or culture? Is petraccas injury luck or culture? Is the Grundy experiment to be applauded for trying or is it to be admonished for not working? Is falling apart in the 22 finals due to injury luck or culture? Is having no forward line in 23 finals after finally finding one luck or culture? 
 

what I’m saying is you can’t throw the baby out with the bath water. Like some have discussed regarding our game plan. Maybe we were ok and just needed a few things to go right for us. Maybe we didn’t need to overhaul it and as a result look a bit lost out there. We went from losing by about a goal on average all year to now getting blown out of the water due to trying to play differently and having bad luck (yes I said it) with our midfield this year. Sometimes in chasing results and going on witch hunts you can make things much worse. Only in hindsight can you tell.
 

my main argument is when assessing culture you need to take into account the entirety of your season and seasons to properly understand where you are and how successfully you’ve implemented plans. 
 

we carry on about our list sometimes on here and bemoan our depth and whatnot but what could we do about it. We aren’t in a position in the cycle where we can draft top talent because we keep finishing top four. The way I see it with the amount of youth we are blooding is that we are trying a Geelong rebuild on the go style list turnover. That feels like what you are talking about. Except we don’t seem to be able to offer farms to players like they can. Sometimes life is unfair.
 

I could argue you’ve got your head in the sand around the difficulties we’ve faced thus far with the Simon goodwin era. The team who wins the flag is often the one with the least injuries. That’s hasn’t been us. I see it as two phases. Up to 2018 and then post 2018. I see a group who have learnt on the go and developed a formidable game style. For three years we have been the best defensive team in the land by quite some way. That requires planning, buy in, consistent hard work, the right players. Our plan was so good that it’s still the plan that teams play in finals. Is that not good culture. 
 

I see us as getting there. Which is all any team is doing. Considering the [censored] I’ve been dealt in my life with this club I am pretty happy with what’s happened since 2018 and I see it as a result of the clubs improved culture amongst high performance and the well being of everyone at the club.

when your clubs is struggling the media like to prey on the darkest fears of the supporters. Don’t listen to them. They’ll only ruin you.

2 hours ago, Willmoy1947 said:

I'll throw one at you. Can you tell me how and why, and they are not mutually inclusive, there are so many teams at this juncture of this year that are not just newly competitive, but are contesting a Top 8 Position?

This year seems to be either the start of a new era for the game in relation to fitness and as a result soft tissue injury or just an anomalous year. Also the weird byes and inconsistencies have meant it’s hard to gauge who’s where. I still don’t trust that Essendon will play finals. As coaches and supporters and others have mentioned, there are strange results and unfair match ups in terms of preparation and breaks leading into games. I think we are also seeing teams who have had a long run go through physical and mental struggles, which is inevitable. Gravity always wins. Us, Brisbane, Collingwood, Geelong. I’m sure gws have one of the best list and game styles but they like us are struggling too. Sydney have had a good list for a while but have been very up and down year to year. We beat them comfortable twice last year. Not a heap has changed on their list. This could be a year where it’s last man standing in terms of fitness at the end of the year, more so than other years. Someone outside the top four seems more possible than usual for the flag.

26 minutes ago, Demon trucker said:

Right you like a run and hide president, I hate people who are only behind you when everything is great, and leave you blowing in the wind, in the hard times, the players can feel her fakeness, but with woke people women can do no wrong 

I’m interested in why you’ve parlayed a female president into wokeness (whatever that means). I’m not sure I can see the correlation - could you expand? 

1 hour ago, Demon trucker said:

Right you like a run and hide president, I hate people who are only behind you when everything is great, and leave you blowing in the wind, in the hard times, the players can feel her fakeness, but with woke people women can do no wrong 

If you’re insinuating I’m woke, you’re off the mark in a massive way but that will give my mates a good laugh.

 I like Presidents who are seen and not heard, Kennett was all about self promotion same as Koch and I knew an assistant from one of the clubs you were referring too who just wished the president would shut up.

I also like leaders who don’t jump to attention and call press conferences to bow to the pressure of the media or Demonlanders who feel the god given right to be spoon fed daily on the inner workings of the club.

This place blows up when a story is released about club A and B being into player X and because we aren’t mentioned it means we’re sitting on our hands.

As I’ve said on other threads I will hold my judgement to see how we go for the remainder of this season and next. 

3 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

some people's 'under performing' is different to the others

having made top four before the finals in the last three completed seasons for the first time since the 1960s and claimed a premiership in that time, i think we've been better than we've been in the last 60 years

2019 was a massive failure and 2020 was a disappointment

2018 was a success imo; 2017 was a fail

Home and away is the qualifying rounds and finals are where you stamp your credentials and where you are ultimately judged. Failing to make a Prelim the last two seasons is underperforming regardless of what happened prior to that. "Top 4 after H&A" is a meaningless metric, the only thing it does is give us a better opportunity to succeed in finals, something we failed to capitalise on in 22-23.

2 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

Yet some will say both Hawthorn and Collingwood have been less arrogant and their culture improved with both Kennett and Maguire moving on

Arrogance is the shadow side of strength, you need to be strong and forthright without showing hubris.

4 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Home and away is the qualifying rounds and finals are where you stamp your credentials and where you are ultimately judged. Failing to make a Prelim the last two seasons is underperforming regardless of what happened prior to that. "Top 4 after H&A" is a meaningless metric, the only thing it does is give us a better opportunity to succeed in finals, something we failed to capitalise on in 22-23.

IMO not being able to qualify for finals is the failure

We didn’t capitalise on our opportunities 

There were a variety of factors at play as to why, but ultimately it was a disappointing result…not a failure

On 16/06/2024 at 14:32, chook fowler said:

Bitter and twisted old fart.

Few of those on here

5 minutes ago, In Harmes Way said:

Few of those on here

Myself included 

42 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

Myself included 

I resemble that remark

3 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

If you’re insinuating I’m woke, you’re off the mark in a massive way but that will give my mates a good laugh.

 I like Presidents who are seen and not heard, Kennett was all about self promotion same as Koch and I knew an assistant from one of the clubs you were referring too who just wished the president would shut up.

I also like leaders who don’t jump to attention and call press conferences to bow to the pressure of the media or Demonlanders who feel the god given right to be spoon fed daily on the inner workings of the club.

This place blows up when a story is released about club A and B being into player X and because we aren’t mentioned it means we’re sitting on our hands.

As I’ve said on other threads I will hold my judgement to see how we go for the remainder of this season and next. 

Don’t be so balanced and fair. It doesn’t fit in around here.

Please do not use Kennett or McGuire as exemplars .     Far from it in many ways.

4 hours ago, Pennant St Dee said:

If you’re insinuating I’m woke, you’re off the mark in a massive way but that will give my mates a good laugh.

 I like Presidents who are seen and not heard, Kennett was all about self promotion same as Koch and I knew an assistant from one of the clubs you were referring too who just wished the president would shut up.

I also like leaders who don’t jump to attention and call press conferences to bow to the pressure of the media or Demonlanders who feel the god given right to be spoon fed daily on the inner workings of the club.

This place blows up when a story is released about club A and B being into player X and because we aren’t mentioned it means we’re sitting on our hands.

As I’ve said on other threads I will hold my judgement to see how we go for the remainder of this season and next. 

Well said.  and under our current Chair the Board has been tight for a number of years now, leak free. 

many posters here have no idea about communication strategy, and the need, or not, to go public on any particular issue.

Goody's presser was plenty.

5 hours ago, Demon trucker said:

Right you like a run and hide president, I hate people who are only behind you when everything is great, and leave you blowing in the wind, in the hard times, the players can feel her fakeness, but with woke people women can do no wrong 

How on earth can you make that statement?   you should be ashamed. Straight out of Herald Sun territory.

Disrespectful to both the players and the President.

 

9 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

Big call from Lloyd to call 3 players selfish when his only vision is Fritsch fluffing 2 kicks, I think it’s indecision more than anything cos they’re trying to work out what they’re supposed to do under the new plan. 

May has been like that every game of his career, when we’re winning it’s being uncompromising and hard-nosed, when we’re losing it’s an issue. Potato potahto. 

Uncomfortable viewing seeing Eddie defending us though. 

3 minutes ago, Fromgotowoewodin said:

Big call from Lloyd to call 3 players selfish when his only vision is Fritsch fluffing 2 kicks, I think it’s indecision more than anything cos they’re trying to work out what they’re supposed to do under the new plan. 

May has been like that every game of his career, when we’re winning it’s being uncompromising and hard-nosed, when we’re losing it’s an issue. Potato potahto. 

Uncomfortable viewing seeing Eddie defending us though. 

I think everyone is still trying to work out why we have fallen off the face of the earth. 
 

We all see the stats and the results. We have the potential explanations, bad pre seasons, off season turmoil, new game plan etc, but I’m still not sure we really know why yet.

6 minutes ago, Fromgotowoewodin said:

Big call from Lloyd to call 3 players selfish when his only vision is Fritsch fluffing 2 kicks, I think it’s indecision more than anything cos they’re trying to work out what they’re supposed to do under the new plan. 

May has been like that every game of his career, when we’re winning it’s being uncompromising and hard-nosed, when we’re losing it’s an issue. Potato potahto. 

Uncomfortable viewing seeing Eddie defending us though. 

Fritsch has a history of being selfish which has been called out many of times on other footy shows.

6 hours ago, von said:

I could argue you’ve got your head in the sand around the difficulties we’ve faced thus far with the Simon goodwin era. The team who wins the flag is often the one with the least injuries. That’s hasn’t been us. I see it as two phases. Up to 2018 and then post 2018. I see a group who have learnt on the go and developed a formidable game style. For three years we have been the best defensive team in the land by quite some way. That requires planning, buy in, consistent hard work, the right players. Our plan was so good that it’s still the plan that teams play in finals. Is that not good culture. 
 

 

 

 

Firstly I think you've written an excellent post and I really enjoyed reading it. However I have to take this part to task.

You do need luck with injuries no doubt about that, but this doesn't mean you put this to one side and claim a write off. In a season where even one or 2 less injuries can make a big difference, the medical and fitness staff have to be on point. In previous years they seem to have done a fine job, but I've got serious questions to ask of their rationale for this season when it comes to rehabbing and getting guys back out there after injury. May, Lever, Oliver all questionable returns after doing what seemed to be more than minor injuries.

Attitudes like this come from the  culture that is set and I don't think it's unreasonable to question where everything sits right now. You can't control all uncontrollables like injury but you can minimise the damage in the long run by making decisions based on the core values.

16 minutes ago, Fromgotowoewodin said:

Big call from Lloyd to call 3 players selfish when his only vision is Fritsch fluffing 2 kicks, I think it’s indecision more than anything cos they’re trying to work out what they’re supposed to do under the new plan. 

May has been like that every game of his career, when we’re winning it’s being uncompromising and hard-nosed, when we’re losing it’s an issue. Potato potahto. 

Uncomfortable viewing seeing Eddie defending us though. 

To be fair though, when we're winning May is likely playing well. These last two weeks he has not, I'd argue they've been two of the worst games in his career. 

I certainly wouldn't take someone yelling and pointing at me as seriously if they had just put the limpest effort on Hoskin-Elliott right on the half time siren. Might be harsh and he's got credits in the bank but I'd be challenging him if I were coach.

Edited June 20, 2024Jun 20 by layzie

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Fritsch has a history of being selfish which has been called out many of times on other footy shows.

Fair enough, but that vision doesn’t show what Lloyd’s claiming in my view. He’s 70m out in the first one, not looking to have a shot - I think he’s thinking does he go to JVR or to Pickett and ends up taking too long. The handball to Chandler was probably there but he’s also our main goal kicker so is paid to kick them. 

3 minutes ago, layzie said:

To be fair though, when we're winning May is likely playing well. These last two weeks he has not, I'd argue they've been two of the worst games in his career. 

I certainly wouldn't take someone yelling and pointing at me as seriously if they had just put the limpest effort on Hoskin-Elliott right on the half time siren. Might be harsh and he's got credits in the bank but I'd be challenging him if I were coach.

Clearly he hadn't been challenged by the coaches because he continues to get away with it each and every week.

His performance against Will Hoskin Elliot was downright embarrassing and yes one of the worst performances I've seen him cough up.

He's got credits, but they can get used up fairly quickly if he continues to dish up those type of performances. 

7 hours ago, Demon trucker said:

Right you like a run and hide president, I hate people who are only behind you when everything is great, and leave you blowing in the wind, in the hard times, the players can feel her fakeness, but with woke people women can do no wrong 

Oh yay a conspiracy theorist.

38 minutes ago, layzie said:

Firstly I think you've written an excellent post and I really enjoyed reading it. However I have to take this part to task.

You do need luck with injuries no doubt about that, but this doesn't mean you put this to one side and claim a write off. In a season where even one or 2 less injuries can make a big difference, the medical and fitness staff have to be on point. In previous years they seem to have done a fine job, but I've got serious questions to ask of their rationale for this season when it comes to rehabbing and getting guys back out there after injury. May, Lever, Oliver all questionable returns after doing what seemed to be more than minor injuries.

Attitudes like this come from the  culture that is set and I don't think it's unreasonable to question where everything sits right now. You can't control all uncontrollables like injury but you can minimise the damage in the long run by making decisions based on the core values.

I should clarify. Amongst however many teams you think are truly contenders that year, it seems whoever amongst them has the best injury run, including the timing of injuries and their ability to get a run on and find form at the right time seem to do a lot better than those struggling to find consistency amongst personnel. Whether that means they don’t get to the pointy pointy end or they get there and fall over can be for the same reason. A lot of things have to go right for a plan to come off in the afl.

 

Im not dismissing the need to review culture and everything that entails. This is built into a good culture. I agree that this season is presenting some serious concerns. I think we’re done for the year and based on how things have gone we never really had a chance due to our preparation for the year. Some of this I think the club needs to own and some of it is a confluence of events coming together to give us no hope. As I’ve said losing Brayshaw I think really [censored] us. We wouldn’t have traded out other mids and we also lost an A grader in three positions. One of our biggest issues is how shallow we’ve become with our list. A couple of decent big bodied experienced midfielders would keep us in the season right about now. Oops.

I agree our approach to injury management may be flawed through clear evidence over the last three seasons. Whether we could have helped it or not we haven’t got it right. I expect every season we go through everything in the most detailed way possible as every team would. I would think the biggest concerns in the off season are our coaching staff and fitness staff structures and personnel. We need more depth in the midfield and ideally not stop gap options. We need to replace Brayshaw and one of Jordan and harmes. We need to decide what brand we play and how best we can play it and whether we have the personnel to pull it off.