POSTGAME: Rd 15 vs Geelong

[IRW 1,387]

On 6/24/2023 at 8:39 PM, IRW said:

They have never honoured a BB lead( which is his game) he's doomed to contests in packs.

Dumb coaching or dumber players 

Probably a bit of both

Today I hear Goody acknowledged supply was ok but they need to kick it better and they're working on it!

Same script writer as last year when they were working on the forward structure.

He gives nothing  away and never takes a backwards step but......?? wtf is going on?

Wake me up when they develop some character 

Edited June 26, 2023 by IRW

[binman 43,813]

9 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Crikey, binman!!  What an ungodly hour to be up let alone be writing about loading!! 

Sincerely hope your thoughts are in a Word doc to simply 'copy/paste' relevant parts as needed for each post.  It does my head in to think you type each post aftresh!

I really admire your commitment to the cause.

No, fresh text every time!

Which now that i think about it is pretty silly. But the search function on DL is a shocker so it takes ages to find previous post once they are more than a few months old

But that it for this season on this topic. I'm done.

I'm not sure why i bother to be honest - i'm not gong to convince any naysers who aren't convinced by now. 

I'm going to take your advice and go back and copy and paste all my recent posts on the topic into the word document.

And this time next year copy and paste with some minor edits to make it 2024 simpatico. It will save me a lot of hours!

Edited June 26, 2023 by binman

[layzie 34,013]

1 hour ago, Demonland said:

 

Interesting, thought this may have been line-ball but should have been called back. 

The rule is definitely a mess. 

[BW511 2,688]

4 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Fatigue has nothing to do with kicking 2 goals 7 behinds in the second qtr. or 14g 33bh in the past two weeks. Has nothing to do with players being handball happy in the wet or playing behind your man or butchering kicks to our players advantage or stopping to wait while the oppo defence sets up their zone.. That is plain stupid brainless wet weather football.

Decision making is abysmal, fumbling is killing us and stagnant, slow predictable footy is what undid us last year. Quick kicks and leads aren't being honoured. Players stop leading when that happens.

All sounds like symptoms of fatigue to me

None of the things listed happen on their own, they require physical or mental exertion. That ability drops off with fatigue 

My opinion, our game plan requires forward line players to do far too much to maintain structure and pressure, which means they are cooked by the time we get a forward entry (Kozzie/Spargs/ANB/Chin etc)

 

 

 

Edited June 26, 2023 by BW511

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

1 hour ago, binman said:

No, fresh text every time!

Which now that i think about it is pretty silly. But the search function on DL is a shocker so it takes ages to find previous post once they are more than a few months old

But that it for this season on this topic. I'm done.

I'm not sure why i bother to be honest - i'm not gong to convince any naysers who aren't convinced by now. 

I'm going to take your advice and go back and copy and paste all my recent posts on the topic into the word document.

And this time next year copy and paste with some minor edits to make it 2024 simpatico. It will save me a lot of hours!

The easiest way to find the 2023 posts is to scroll through the 'Activity' in your profile.  Tedious but at least they are all in one place.  Click on the post and it will take you to the thread in which the post appeared.

And, allow me to introduce you to the 2022 version:

Just click on the title and it will take you straight to last year's thread.  It may take a little while to scroll through to find your posts but it sure beats using the 'search' function.

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

2 hours ago, binman said:

No, fresh text every time!

Which now that i think about it is pretty silly. But the search function on DL is a shocker so it takes ages to find previous post once they are more than a few months old

But that it for this season on this topic. I'm done.

I'm not sure why i bother to be honest - i'm not gong to convince any naysers who aren't convinced by now. 

I'm going to take your advice and go back and copy and paste all my recent posts on the topic into the word document.

And this time next year copy and paste with some minor edits to make it 2024 simpatico. It will save me a lot of hours!

Tbh, just about everyone agrees there is a loading program.  You summed up the area of disagreement perfectly in this line: 

"But of course, it is far from the only factor. And i fully concede that i might be wrong and that is not the biggest factor. But it is 100% a factor - the only real debate is how big a factor"

So the scope of the discussion is your position that loading is the biggest factor whereas others say it isn't the biggest factor (re impact on our performances).

It isn't possible to demonstrate that either position is right in any given game as there is no data to measure the variables.  It comes down to theories and assumptions.

So imv, agreement on the area of debate is a head-banging-on-wall level exercise, as it was last year as it will be next year...

Edited June 26, 2023 by Lucifers Hero

[jnrmac 20,189]

6 hours ago, BW511 said:

All sounds like symptoms of fatigue to me

None of the things listed happen on their own, they require physical or mental exertion. That ability drops off with fatigue 

My opinion, our game plan requires forward line players to do far too much to maintain structure and pressure, which means they are cooked by the time we get a forward entry (Kozzie/Spargs/ANB/Chin etc)

 

 

 

We weren't fatigued in the first half. and thats where the game was lost. We just played dumb football

[layzie 34,013]

15 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Tbh, just about everyone agrees there is a loading program.  You summed up the area of disagreement perfectly in this line: 

"But of course, it is far from the only factor. And i fully concede that i might be wrong and that is not the biggest factor. But it is 100% a factor - the only real debate is how big a factor"

So the scope of the discussion is your position that loading is the biggest factor whereas others say it isn't the biggest factor (re impact on our performances).

It isn't possible to demonstrate that either position is right in any given game as there is no data to measure the variables.  It comes down to theories and assumptions.

So imv, agreement on the area of debate is a head-banging-on-wall level exercise, as it was last year as it will be next year...

Exactly, it's much easier to be in camp A or camp B. No-one is going to argue with someone over it being 30% of a factor while the other only thinks it's 5%. Although if anyone is thinking of starting another argument about this that would be a cool one to try out. 

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

4 minutes ago, layzie said:

Exactly, it's much easier to be in camp A or camp B. No-one is going to argue with someone over it being 30% of a factor while the other only thinks it's 5%. Although if anyone is thinking of starting another argument about this that would be a cool one to try out. 

OMG, that would be soooo not cool!

Just more head-banging-on-wall...

 

[layzie 34,013]

6 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

OMG, that would be soooo not cool!

Just more head-banging-on-wall...

 

Just figure if it's going to continue it may as well get creative. 

[titan_uranus 25,045]

On 6/25/2023 at 5:33 PM, A F said:

You're very much determined, TU, that loading was no issue last year (you poo pooed it all year). Can I ask, have you actually listened to the Demonland podcast with Selwyn?

Secondly, between approximately Rounds 11 to 19 in 2021, 2022 and we're seeing it again in 2023, we've seen a marked drop off in performance. That doesn't mean we lose every game, but it is a factor.

This year it is most obviously apparent in our scoring accuracy, which is not only a by-product of fatigue, but our slower, less direct ball movement that then offers less penetrating forward 50 thrusts, is also related to fatigue.

You'd like Selwyn on another podcast interview to come out and say we increase training of players during Rounds x to y? Or have we just suddenly become a poor footy team that can't execute three years in a row, after starting the first two 9 zip?

Yes @A F and @binman, I’ve listed to the Selwyn podcast. 

I absolutely accept that clubs tailor training programs throughout the year. Of course we do.

What I am challenging is the strong assumption that you two (and others) have drawn that says that we have engaged in a heavy training block over the last few weeks, so much so that it goes a long way to explaining certain losses (eg Geelong). 

Last year I did the same thing. I asked if there was evidence that we had engaged in a heavy training block to help explain mid-year losses. I don’t believe there was any (other than general research and supposition). I said I wanted to see us bounce back with strong running later in the year, which didn’t happen (but admittedly may have been due to other factors such as injuries). 

In the podcast I hear Selwyn talk about the bye and the weeks around it. In the same sentence when he talks about getting “an increased exposure in aerobic capacity development” during the round 12-15 window, he also talks about the importance of giving the players a break because they will need it. That to me tells me we approach things on a more micro level, week to week perhaps, but I don’t accept that interview leads to the inevitable conclusion that we engaged in a heavy training block across those weeks. 

When I say there’s no evidence, I mean that, as far as I know, I haven’t seen a coach or a player reference it in an interview, or a Demonland track watcher notice it in a training session.

So whilst we may have added loads in particular weeks as the season unfolds, I don’t believe there is enough evidence to sustain the argument that we must necessarily have done a heavy loading block across a few weeks, which necessarily must be impacting current performance. 

There are other reasons why we might have seen a decrease in performance through this period. Generally all footballers slow down in the colder months as the footy and ground gets heavier. Clubs continue to work on each other’s gameplans and strategies and learn more about each other. Injuries might hit. And whilst we’re seeing most clubs off the bye struggle, the funny thing about that argument is that we didn’t really have a bye, with our 10 day break the same as the break prior to KB. We had no sign of loading hitting our players late on KB. And we know subsequently our players took a break, so if anything the post-KB 10 day break was lighter on the track than the pre-KB break. 

So for the tl;dr version - I accept we structure our training carefully and at times during the year we train harder with a view to maximising our fitness, but I don’t currently believe there’s enough evidence to conclude definitively that we’ve been training so hard of late that it must necessarily be the biggest factor to explain our loss to Geelong. 

[waynewussell 6,241]

22 hours ago, SFebes said:

Well said, finally some common sense and telling it as it is. I'm starting to form the opinion that Kozzie is a very lazy footballer. And agree, something isn't right.

🤣 that is the funniest notion I have heard in weeks!

[binman 43,813]

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not."

Jer. 5:21 (King James version)

[titan_uranus 25,045]

15 minutes ago, binman said:

"Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not."

Jer. 5:21 (King James version)

Is this directed at me? Is there anything particular about my post above or view on this issue that you think is foolish? I’ve tried my best to explain myself here. 

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

11 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Is this directed at me? Is there anything particular about my post above or view on this issue that you think is foolish? I’ve tried my best to explain myself here. 

Probably just anyone who disagrees with his loading arguments.  Earlier he was saying how he did not make personal insults, now he just insults the masses.  It was most likely directed somewhat at you.....Well thought out post from someone who has no eyes or ears!

[Neil Crompton 5,664]

10 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Is this directed at me? Is there anything particular about my post above or view on this issue that you think is foolish? I’ve tried my best to explain myself here. 

Titan, I appreciate that both you and Binman have gone to great lengths to explain your positions. Neither position is “foolish” as none of us are privy to the real answer. 
All I know is that we have lost 4 or 5 games this year because we have played poor quality football - for whatever reason, be it dumb wet weather football, poor selections, poor game management, or just poor execution of skills - and I am sick of it and we need to be much better than that. This “loading” may influence some of the reasons listed above, but only some.
These are professional athletes that train to execute their skills under pressure and when fatigued, and under both dry and wet weather conditions. There just is no excuse for poor skills or dumb wet weather football. None. 

[Watson11 2,243]

1 hour ago, Neil Crompton said:

Titan, I appreciate that both you and Binman have gone to great lengths to explain your positions. Neither position is “foolish” as none of us are privy to the real answer. 
All I know is that we have lost 4 or 5 games this year because we have played poor quality football - for whatever reason, be it dumb wet weather football, poor selections, poor game management, or just poor execution of skills - and I am sick of it and we need to be much better than that. This “loading” may influence some of the reasons listed above, but only some.
These are professional athletes that train to execute their skills under pressure and when fatigued, and under both dry and wet weather conditions. There just is no excuse for poor skills or dumb wet weather football. None. 

For the record, I think loading happens but everyone does it.  The crows and Blight started in in 97-98. It’s not new. 

But if it is being used as a reason for poor form it’s too easily misinterpreted as an excuse.  On Thursday we were 2 goals down after conceding 3 goals in a row. Game on line. Atkins soccered it to a vacant wing. The photo below is a few moments after and we had 3 of the 4 closest players to the ball. 

By the time Hunter picked it up, Geelong had 4 players on him in an instant and we had no-one near Hunter. No one bothered to shepherd.  No one bothered to run hard in case he fumbled. No one ran to receive a handball just in case. Max had jogged about 5 metres. Geelong scored from the turnover and game over.
 

Burgo is notorious for 100x100’s in heat, and is on the record as saying it’s because players learn they always have more effort to give, no matter what. 

If Collingwood put in abysmal efforts like above in 4th qtrs regardless of loading, I can’t imagine what their players would cop from supporters but it wouldn’t be “jolly good effort, you’ll do better when you have finished loading.”

 

[rpfc 28,779]

19 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Tbh, just about everyone agrees there is a loading program.  You summed up the area of disagreement perfectly in this line: 

"But of course, it is far from the only factor. And i fully concede that i might be wrong and that is not the biggest factor. But it is 100% a factor - the only real debate is how big a factor"

So the scope of the discussion is your position that loading is the biggest factor whereas others say it isn't the biggest factor (re impact on our performances).

It isn't possible to demonstrate that either position is right in any given game as there is no data to measure the variables.  It comes down to theories and assumptions.

So imv, agreement on the area of debate is a head-banging-on-wall level exercise, as it was last year as it will be next year...

It ruins conversations on this site. We have been unable to score 80 points for nearly two months and we have forward connection and execution issues but that can’t be discussed because of Demonlands ‘Fire Blanket of Conversation’ - the loading conversation. I have always agreed that aerobic capacity is built on during the season, somehow this then become a two month long theory to explain away declining performances. And that was proven erroneous last year - we were leaking out of our front half and we were then banged up later in the year.

Now we start the season with the performance manager at the club saying that the bye week creates a three week period of an opportunity to what some would call ‘load’ - and that has again become the ‘reason’ for maligned performances and execution.

Thursday night in Geelong cannot be explained away by fatigue. Our dominance in the contest and pressure and in the press in the first 3 qtrs could not be capitalised on by delivery into a forward line that has little presence and structure. If then the final qtr capitulation is at the lap of Griffith then fine, but review his position at the end of the year - it was that pitiful. We wanted to win that game - we went the day before, we trained on the ground.

So we need to address our issues, and I am eager to discuss it.

[pitmaster 3,578]

On 6/25/2023 at 6:07 PM, binman said:

All excellent points AF.

I'd add one more (and then stay out of it, i mean who can be bothered - if someone is not convinced by the mountain of evidence by now - teams losing after the bye being just one more - then their minds are made up).

Our fitness fell away late in the 2022 season. Some argue that is evidence against the fact we did a mid season heavy block of training  (which frankly is just assinine).

Well, the obvious counter is that whilst it did not work for us - it DID work for the cats, who openly said they copied our approach (and acknowledged that a factor in their perennial failure to win a flag despite finishing top 4 in mutiple seasons was running our of gas late in the season)

The cats ran out the season as powerfully as we did in 2021, and like us had a clear fitness edge over all other teams (bar perhaps the pies). It was a massive factor in their dominant run from aprox this point in the 2022 season.

Having adopted our mid season heavy block of training, the Cats won the flag.

So, the last two flags, at least, have been won by teams who have done a mid season heavy block of training.

No doubt it is industry standard now. 

Not that you'd know that listening to media people scratch their heads trying to explain how freo, coming off a bye and clearly fatigued, could be so, so poor against the giants.

 

I understand this has become a painful issue for you binman, however I have to ask you to dig a little deeper and go again because I have obviously missed something in this discussion (which I have not followed since last season). Can you please outline the interplay of loading and the bye and explain how training around that time away is fatiguing players?

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

54 minutes ago, rpfc said:

So we need to address our issues, and I am eager to discuss it.

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to stifle discussion - just that I see the question on how big a factor loading is in explaining individual game results as a lose/lose discussion - not enough data to say one way or the other. 

fwiw, I'm in the camp that: we and all clubs have a loading program, it can vary from player to player and it can be timed depending on the fixture (travel, days break etc) and other non game factors.  And the circumstances of each game are unique.  Loading could affect some games, not others.  It could affect some players, not others. 

That it significantly and simultaneously affects every player in a string of games is a stretch for me.  Consequently, imv loading isn't a major factor for the results of any particular game. 

So by all means, discuss it.  I will stay out of it.  I did enough banging-head-on-wall on this last year.

 

I confess, I haven't followed the discussion this year - I chimed in as I was shocked to see binman posting on this in the early hours of the morning.

Edited June 27, 2023 by Lucifers Hero

[beelzebub 23,383]

24 minutes ago, rpfc said:

It ruins conversations on this site. We have been unable to score 80 points for nearly two months and we have forward connection and execution issues but that can’t be discussed because of Demonlands ‘Fire Blanket of Conversation’ - the loading conversation. I have always agreed that aerobic capacity is built on during the season, somehow this then become a two month long theory to explain away declining performances. And that was proven erroneous last year - we were leaking out of our front half and we were then banged up later in the year.

Now we start the season with the performance manager at the club saying that the bye week creates a three week period of an opportunity to what some would call ‘load’ - and that has again become the ‘reason’ for maligned performances and execution.

Thursday night in Geelong cannot be explained away by fatigue. Our dominance in the contest and pressure and in the press in the first 3 qtrs could not be capitalised on by delivery into a forward line that has little presence and structure. If then the final qtr capitulation is at the lap of Griffith then fine, but review his position at the end of the year - it was that pitiful. We wanted to win that game - we went the day before, we trained on the ground.

So we need to address our issues, and I am eager to discuss it.

I think you're right on the money, in many respects.  The one size fits all nature of tge "fitness" debate simply ignores the Football problems.

Our forward game reminds me of schoolyard kick to kick. I just don't see any real methodologies in situ. Pockets are where you try to drive your opposition when THEY have the ball in your attacking arc. They are a last resort ( for sensible footy ) but they seem our preference. 

I was fascinated to hear ( truly ) that some forward leading drills were happening at training. Are they then directed like a jury to disregard all that learning come game day. It bloody looks that way .

Why do our forwards crowd each other...or worse .  ..interfere with each others attempts to mark.  

Some folk retort...oh...but ... we're 4th and good %.   That ignores the trend. Most of that % was banked earlier and its been slowly eroded.

 

[rpfc 28,779]

17 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to stifle discussion - just that I see the question on how big a factor loading is in explaining individual game results as a lose/lose gamen - not enough data to say one way or the other. 

fwiw, I'm in the camp that: we and all clubs have a loading program, it can vary from player to player and it can be scheduled depending on the fixture (travel, days break etc).  And the circumstances of each game are unique.  Consequently, imv loading is not a the major factor for the results of any particular game.  

So by all means, discuss it.  I will stay out of it.  I did enough banging-head-on-wall on this last year.

I was more adding on to your point as opposed to accusing you of anything

[Lucifers Hero 40,364]

26 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I was more adding on to your point as opposed to accusing you of anything

All good - no accusation inferred or taken. 

Edited June 27, 2023 by Lucifers Hero

[jnrmac 20,189]

On 6/26/2023 at 10:58 AM, SFebes said:

Well said, finally some common sense and telling it as it is. I'm starting to form the opinion that Kozzie is a very lazy footballer. And agree, something isn't right.

I wouldn't call Kozzie lazy . I think he rates very highly in pressure acts and he does a power of running. I would question though where he is running to and how he places himself at the drop of the ball.

Defenders usually go to the boundary side and yet we rarely have anyone swopping down the side to capitalise on a punch to the boundary. Thats something KP could do. He just isnt getting t the drop of the ball where he is most dangerous.

 

[SFebes 4,884]

31 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

I wouldn't call Kozzie lazy . I think he rates very highly in pressure acts and he does a power of running. I would question though where he is running to and how he places himself at the drop of the ball.

Defenders usually go to the boundary side and yet we rarely have anyone swopping down the side to capitalise on a punch to the boundary. Thats something KP could do. He just isnt getting t the drop of the ball where he is most dangerous.

 

He also does a lot of last minute tackles and almost chases, I've been watching him closely of late. Perhaps he is injured? However he looks to have completely put away his strengths. Its a watch for me.....we shall see.