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POSTGAME: Rd 15 vs Geelong


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8 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

Yeh. There's a lot there. 

But I will give you a simple one. 

If a Melb player has the ball, in space and under no pressure and the kick results in a direct turnover, that's a serious error . And it's an unforgivable one if it happens in our defensive half of the ground or when we're going inside 50 and have players open. 

And we are soooooo good at executing these types of errors. 

Everyone can forgive a certain number of miskicks, fumbles, miss-handballs etc throughout general play and especially through the middle of the ground. And under pressure and heat, errors like these are part of football clearly so I'm not talking about those clearly. 

Sometimes I wonder if dropping a player would actually wake them up. Like, sometimes I watch Gus Brayshaw with ball in hand under no pressure and wonder what the [censored] he is doing. 

There should be a price paid for unforgivable errors that continue to happen. Players who continue to execute them need to be dropped. Just as they would if their 'effort' wasn't there.

The polarising thing is that decision making and executing under no pressure is effort. It's about [censored] concentrating, kicking with intent and having a will to want to make sure you hit that open target. And if you don't, go and [censored] practice it at training. 

Either that, or drop some players until they realise that when you have the ball in open space, you need to protect it. And that the same premium should be placed on having care for your disposals as it is with defensive running or bringing the ball to ground or scrapping in a contest. 

I never hear Goody say, "Geez our fundamentals were off tonight and we just let them back in the game". 

Other coaches say it all the timeeeee. And every ex-footballer in the media knows how poor we are with ball in hand. Dunstal bangs on about it all the time.

Im sick to death of it. 

Pointing out the errors of one particular player when all our players make the same sort of errors (or perceived errors) is poor, overall analysis

Collectively we made close to 80 clangers against Gerlong yet many here only want to see the perceived mistakes by one player

Besides which, players need to take risks and use the corridor and we have many players who give up on the contest when they have to work hard to at least halve a contest

You want lace-out passing on a wintry rainy night, you're dreaming.  And if supporters want safe boundary hugging footy, you will lose

I'll say it again ... the 2 Brayshaw turnovers were the fault of the recipients not Brayshaw

The first involving Rivers saw Rivers not put his body on the line as he allowed the Geelong player into the marking contest and the 2nd involving Petty saw Petty give no effort at all.  Petty couldn't be bothered

Viney, Petracca & Oliver consistently turn the ball over in the same way on a constant basis yet they never cop any heat

Viney, Petracca, Sparrow & Hunter had 22 clangers between them against the Cats. Where's all that talk?  Fritsch got caught playing from behind at least a half a dozen times against the Cats but cops no heat.  Scoring opportunities wasted time after time

Our forwards give up numerous scoring opportunities simply by not playing in front.  Time & time again

Can we talk about that stuff as well?  Because, to be fair, that needs to be talked about

So why is it always Brayshaw only? And why can't people here also talk about all his good footy?  Why does all his good work get completely ignored?  

If people are fair, right across the board and noted all the errors by all our players then so be it.  But that needs to happen - fairness

And if we are going to be fair, every single mistake or error has to be counted.  Nothing can be left out as highlighted by our forwards often playing from behind (which directly effects a scoring opportunity on each occasion)

 

Edited by Macca
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18 hours ago, binman said:

I'm going to avoid DL for a few days, and footy media too, because it will just irritate me as there will be little, if any consideration of the single most important factor in the loss - fatigue as result of a heavy block of training. 

Ah @binman. I applaud your resolve, running so openly and strongly with this after mast year.

I will maintain my view from last year, which is that I’d prefer to see concrete evidence from the club that shows we have actually engaged in loading through this period of 2023, before accepting this is the dominant reason for our performances as you argue. Last year there wasn’t such evidence IIRC, and we waited to see us bounce back with running fitness as the weeks went by, and it never happened. Granted, that may have been due to injuries, but it meant there was no real evidence that the loading block had occurred. 

If you can prove me wrong with interviews, or confirmed reports/vision from training, which show us increasing our training load over the last few weeks, I’m all ears. 

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With the perceived wisdom of looking out of your behind.

15 points loss at Geelong is not the end of the world.  I know they were short of 3 or 4 players but in reality so were the demons.

Tommo should have played, Bowey and Oliver was missing, 

so selection errors perhaps 

some umpiring decisions were influenced by the location. At the MCG it will be neutral, no bias I hope. 
 

some players could have gone harder at different times, they missed targets etc again perhaps 

we got clearly outcoached in the last quarter, up till then even with some players only having a few touches and little impact

we did OK,

we ran out of puff, or they found some, I don’t know but the sky has not fallen. 
 

go Dees 

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Further to the errors debate

I see a forward playing from behind as a far greater issue than a misdirected kick

The misdirected kick is an accident or a mistake (and not meant) where as playing from behind is a 'choice' resulting in a lost scoring opportunity (most of the time)

Too many of our forwards are looking for the cheapie out the back

A misdirected kick is often the result of pressure from the opposition ... Oliver, Petracca & Viney are the chief perpetrators in the clanger department

But chances must be taken and we have to use the corridor in order to win. 
So I am not blaming those 3 aforementioned players even when an errant kick eventuates from any of the 3 players under zero pressure

They are taking a chance ... dare to win

No risk, no reward

The Pies coach wants his players to take risks and wears the mistakes as a consequence.  He's on record in saying that

They've lost 2 games and are well set up for September

Where as players playing from behind in the forward line is lazy & unprofessional.  And it is a chosen path

And a coach killer

Edited by Macca
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Adam Tomlinson 25 kicks 2 handballs 27 disposals 9 marks 2 tackles 114 dream team points

Still waiting for some idea of why he was replaced by Petty who couldnt or would run 

It shows Goodwins weaknesses and poor selection

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Goodwin: "for three quarters we stayed with them.  But we lost the arm wrestle and we lost the game."

 

Goodwin's coaching philosophy in a nutshell. 1min to go in the 3rd qtr in the 21 GF Tracc kicks his goal Goodwin tells them to shut it down.

The teams playing well this year are all taking the game on with run and dare.  Just like we did in pre season and in all our training over summer. 

But during season we try to grid out wins.

the are a lot of questions our coaches should be answering

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20 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

I’ve wondered this too. Kenny needs wins, but 28 weeks of football is a long time to be up.

Collingwood have done it

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13 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Goodwin: "for three quarters we stayed with them.  But we lost the arm wrestle and we lost the game."

 

Goodwin's coaching philosophy in a nutshell. 1min to go in the 3rd qtr in the 21 GF Tracc kicks his goal Goodwin tells them to shut it down.

The teams playing well this year are all taking the game on with run and dare.  Just like we did in pre season and in all our training over summer. 

But during season we try to grid out wins.

the are a lot of questions our coaches should be answering

He is trying to play not to lose rather than playing to win

absolutely flawed strategy and he should continued to be questioned on this 

He is a low IQ coach in my opinion. 

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16 hours ago, The heart beats true said:

Like the shoes?

Italian phrase....i just didnt feel like stating the bleeding obvious.

Edited by Wadda We Sing
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Selection leaves a lot to be desired too.

Petty clearly needed a run in the twos first, and we are selecting players in ordinary to average form in Jordon and Spargo and leaving out players in very good for such as Thommo and Bowey.

I love JVR but he is still learning the caper and no lynch pin just yet.

Ben Brown might straighten us up a little.

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11 hours ago, monoccular said:

Do our forwards not lead towards space because they know that leads will not be honoured, or that the kicker lacks the skills and poise to deliver to a lead?  

Alternatively are they just lazy, or poorly coached / drilled?  

At present they all seem to congregate together and fly for the big bomb.  

If even one, not necessarily the biggest, broke for a lead surely a defender would have to follow him or block him, lessening the congestion even if the long bomb was eventually used.  Or maybe all opponents have worked out our 'plan' and join the pack under the. bomb. 

I'm going to guess that the odds of a mark and goal in the forward line are lower than a crumber cleaning up around a pack and kicking a goal. I might be wrong but it would explain a lot. Similiar to those bemoaning May's kick outs, only to realise that we are the number 1 club for turning kick outs into goals.

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14 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

The way we play the majority of the time fails to excite, which imo contributes to our supporters either not wanting to rock up and/or doesn't give our supporters much to cheer about. 

Kosi is about the only excitable player on our list but he's been a shadow of himself for the best part of a month. 

We have nobody else that excites. Not even Trac. Forward of centre, he's about as reliable as a chocolate teapot when it comes to kicking goals in general play and set-shots. 

Against better sides, our inability to kick goals from great opportunities and looks forward has been atrocious for two years. Two years. Even in the wet last night, we had so many opportunities going forward that we just waste. 

When will we actually address this? They talk about method and that the club have worked on that over summer. But it's clear to me it's a personnel thing more than anything. Miskicks, kicks straight up in the air, kicks to the advantage of a defender. It all comes down to the individual and we are stocked full of players who consistently display poor ball use. It doesn't change.. 

One quick fix for the rest of the year imo is to move Salem to a half forward/centre forward mid role. Take out one of Sparrow, Jordan or even ANB. Give Spargs ANB's role for a few weeks and sacrifice a bit of that run with a ball use. 

One of Bowey or Salem need to play forward centre. We just cannot hit targets going inside 50 and let me tell you, they are there. Always. 

I'm just completely vanilla mids in Jordan and Sparrow. We need other types in there. 

And we are desperate for a mature aged key position forward who knows where to lead, when to leave space and can contest hard. 

 

Love it Big fella, especially the chocolate teapot, where do i get one of those!

Hope your travels are going well, are you back for finals?

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1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

 

The teams playing well this year are all taking the game on with run and dare.  Just like we did in pre season and in all our training over summer. 

 

Like Collingwood who we controlled completely with our defensive effort. Sorry but your analysis is just plain wrong.

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10 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

I never hear Goody say, "Geez our fundamentals were off tonight and we just let them back in the game". 

I reckon it is because Goody's approach is more about finding the positives in the players and game.

Perfection footy is not what he seeks. I think repeated efforts is what he hangs his hat on.

Are we getting the best out of the players we have? Our squad is healthy, our game plans are still being worked out, positions are still being tinkered with. Fundamentals, well I believe when we "click" we are unstoppable. Coaches go a long way in creating the right environment for the "clicking" to happen. Poor messaging in the media, such as poor execution without individualised refinement, may hinder that objective. 

I like his methods. Often keeps us in games when our fundamentals aren't clicking.

We have gears, and better days. Hoping the system is one that thrives when much more is on the line, like finals.

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15 hours ago, JimmyGadson said:

The way we play the majority of the time fails to excite, which imo contributes to our supporters either not wanting to rock up and/or doesn't give our supporters much to cheer about. 

Kosi is about the only excitable player on our list but he's been a shadow of himself for the best part of a month. 

We have nobody else that excites. Not even Trac. Forward of centre, he's about as reliable as a chocolate teapot when it comes to kicking goals in general play and set-shots. 

Against better sides, our inability to kick goals from great opportunities and looks forward has been atrocious for two years. Two years. Even in the wet last night, we had so many opportunities going forward that we just waste. 

When will we actually address this? They talk about method and that the club have worked on that over summer. But it's clear to me it's a personnel thing more than anything. Miskicks, kicks straight up in the air, kicks to the advantage of a defender. It all comes down to the individual and we are stocked full of players who consistently display poor ball use. It doesn't change.. 

One quick fix for the rest of the year imo is to move Salem to a half forward/centre forward mid role. Take out one of Sparrow, Jordan or even ANB. Give Spargs ANB's role for a few weeks and sacrifice a bit of that run with a ball use. 

One of Bowey or Salem need to play forward centre. We just cannot hit targets going inside 50 and let me tell you, they are there. Always. 

I'm just completely vanilla mids in Jordan and Sparrow. We need other types in there. 

And we are desperate for a mature aged key position forward who knows where to lead, when to leave space and can contest hard. 

 

If you watch the other games on a kayo binge weekend this little melodrama repeats itself holus-bolus. The main problem is the shape of the football. Of course, a good full forward would be helpful.

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Just a point

if Rohan had been a Melb player

how many weeks would he have received 

duty of care should apply no matter that you are on the same side 

concussion in 10 years time will not care who hit Cameron 

high , reckless , feet off the ground , player off for two weeks 

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1 hour ago, Roost it far said:

Love it Big fella, especially the chocolate teapot, where do i get one of those!

Hope your travels are going well, are you back for finals?

I would also like a chocolate teapot, would mean I'd have some chocolate right now.

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We seem to have too many passengers at the moment. The Gawn /Grundy combo  is failing .Small forwards have gone to sleep, Goody made big mistake in dropping Tomlinson,he could have used Petty up front. We should have tried Bowey up front in the reserves as we need to see if he can add another dimension. Howes hasn't been setting the house on fire for Casey however I would give him a go in the seniors. Kossie since hasn't shown any form since his extended contract, should be dropped. If we bring in B.Brown then we have to drop one of the following Gawn/Grundy/Smith at this stage I would rest Gawn.

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9 hours ago, Roost it far said:

I'm going to guess that the odds of a mark and goal in the forward line are lower than a crumber cleaning up around a pack and kicking a goal. I might be wrong but it would explain a lot. Similiar to those bemoaning May's kick outs, only to realise that we are the number 1 club for turning kick outs into goals.

I meant odds are higher

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9 hours ago, DeeZee said:

Selection leaves a lot to be desired too.

Petty clearly needed a run in the twos first, and we are selecting players in ordinary to average form in Jordon and Spargo and leaving out players in very good for such as Thommo and Bowey.

I love JVR but he is still learning the caper and no lynch pin just yet.

Ben Brown might straighten us up a little.

They have never honoured a BB lead( which is his game) he's doomed to contests in packs.

Dumb coaching or dumber players 

Probably a bit of both

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15 hours ago, Macca said:

Viney, Petracca, Sparrow & Hunter had 22 clangers between them against the Cats. Where's all that talk?  Fritsch got caught playing from behind at least a half a dozen times against the Cats but cops no heat.  Scoring opportunities wasted time after time

Our forwards give up numerous scoring opportunities simply by not playing in front.  Time & time again

And if we are going to be fair, every single mistake or error has to be counted.  Nothing can be left out as highlighted by our forwards often playing from behind (which directly effects a scoring opportunity on each occasion)

Forwards playing from behind yes..... and doing so in the wet 🤔

Again we seem incapable of some of the required 101s in wet/slippery conditions.

If we weren't required to play in winter i might be more understanding.

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32 minutes ago, Go the Biff said:

Thanks @layzie but I'm only good for one long post every 5 - 10 years 

Yes i'd also like to say .....that was an outstanding post Biff 👏🏼👏🏼👍🏻

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2 hours ago, Demon Dynasty said:

Forwards playing from behind yes..... and doing so in the wet 🤔

Again we seem incapable of some of the required 101s in wet/slippery conditions.

If we weren't required to play in winter i might be more understanding.

There's nothing more annoying and it's not talked about anywhere near enough on this site.

Easily the first and most important rule in football and nothing else works well unless that first rule is adhered to

I well remember engaging with half a dozen posters here a year or so ago and they were trying to convince me that it's perfectly fine for forwards to play from behind.  Astonishing

And you're right about wet weather football.  Getting in front is even more important when it's wet.  Kicks falls short a lot so if you're playing from behind you've got Buckley's chance

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