Hawks racism allegations (merged thread)

[layzie 34,529]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:23, Mr Steve said:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-21/hawthorn-afl-respond-to-racism-allegations/101460550

I won't cut and paste but Luke Hodge said he had never heard allegations like this while he was at the club "to the extent of the terrible stuff in there [the article]".

Interesting that he said " to the extent of the terrible stuff in there" Not never happened.

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No smoke without fire, there's going to be some serious explaining to do and I don't see anyone getting out cleanly. 

[dazzledavey36 56,443]

Genuinely appalled this could happen in this day and age.

I'm incredibly sad for our first nations people that they have had to endure this disgusting behaviour and the trauma that they have continued to battle even to this day.

My heart goes out to them.

I was really uncomfortable reading that but it needs to be shared in being better with how we not only deal with racism but just treating people better as a whole.

[Bystander 903]

In the absence of admissions, documents or independent witnesses it will never be fully resolved.

[Lucifers Hero 40,756]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:32, bobby1554 said:

The AFL must impose very heavy sanctions on those involved. Don't forget this came out of an external review commissioned by Hawthorn, the purpose of which was to ascertain the experiences of indigenous players, current and former, of the club. Three examples of that report have formed the basis of the ABC report.

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Agreed.  While what is reported are 'allegations' it is not as if someone has run off whinging to the media. 

The report would have been prepared by credible people and cleared by lawyers at various levels as would the reporting at the ABC.

The AFL are using the term 'allegations' of 'historical' events, a term often relating to events of 30+ years ago.  These were in the last decade or so.  Nothing 'historical' about them.

While Hawthorn can say the key people are no longer at the club and things have changed to try and cover itself, which doesn't wash, that script isn't available to the AF given it involves two of its senior coaches.

Edited September 21, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[layzie 34,529]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:32, bobby1554 said:

The AFL must impose very heavy sanctions on those involved. Don't forget this came out of an external review commissioned by Hawthorn, the purpose of which was to ascertain the experiences of indigenous players, current and former, of the club. Three examples of that report have formed the basis of the ABC report. Rioli left the club on bad terms. Does anyone really think this is fabricated? One of the coaches named in the report has history. Remember the punched walls? The behaviour at junior football games? 

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Exactly. Even if what was leaked isn't 100% to the millimetre it's not like some wind sack on Twitter saying it. 

[Dee Zephyr 19,333]

I wish I didn’t read that, enough to make anyone sick in the guts. 

[Bates Mate 4,520]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:33, Jontee said:

Shaun Burgoyne didnt mention anything in his book (found it remaindered for $2)

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Burgoyne was already an 8 year veteran and married with kids to the daughter of an SANFL legend Greg Phillips and sister of aflw's Erin Phillips. When he joined the Hawks. I'd say his experience and treatment was different to that of a young indigenous draftee . Also highly likely be wasn't aware of it at all

 

Edited September 21, 2022 by Bates Mate

[layzie 34,529]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:46, Dee Zephyr said:

I wish I didn’t read that, enough to make anyone sick in the guts. 

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Sickening

[binman 44,900]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:35, Bystander said:

In the absence of admissions, documents or independent witnesses it will never be fully resolved.

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What does that mean?

Resolved in what sense - a legal sense?

If resolved in the sense of the Hawks taking responsibility for their behaviour, choosing to accept the findings of a report they they themselves commissioned, and choosing to believe their ex players and partners, then that is wholly up to the Hawthorn Football Club.

By the by,  what the hell does independent witnesses mean? Independent of whom? 

 

[Jaded No More 68,976]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:49, Bates Mate said:

Burgoyne was already an 8 year veteran and married with kids to the daughter of an SANFL legend Greg Phillips and sister of aflw's Erin Phillips. When he joined the Hawks. I'd say his experience and treatment was different to that of a young indigenous draftee . Also highly likely be wasn't aware of it at all

 

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Which only makes it worse. They preyed on the vulnerable and young.

One player in the article mentioned he was lucky to be drafted. Hawthorn obviously felt these young first nation players 'owed' them their lives because they were drafted. 

[Bystander 903]

Who did the review?In the absence of admissions, documents or independent witnesses it will never be fully resolved.

[1964_2 2,357]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:41, Lucifers Hero said:

Agreed.  While what is reported are 'allegations' it is not as if someone has run off whinging to the media. 

The report would have been prepared by credible people and cleared by lawyers at various levels as would the reporting at the ABC.

The AFL are using the term 'allegations' of 'historical' events, a term often relating to events of 30+ years ago.  These were in the last decade or so.  Nothing 'historical' about them.

While Hawthorn can say the key people are no longer at the club and things have changed to try and cover itself, which doesn't wash, that script isn't available to the AF given it involves two of its senior coaches.

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Well said. Time doesn’t heal these kind of wounds. It just makes it worse when those in power run campaigns of denial, cover-up and lack of acknowledgement/apology. 

Really big test coming up for the AFL in regards to how they deal with this

 

[binman 44,900]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:55, Bystander said:

Who did the review?In the absence of admissions, documents or independent witnesses it will never be fully resolved.

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So you said.

And i''ll repeat:

 What does that mean?

Resolved in what sense - a legal sense?

If resolved in the sense of the Hawks taking responsibility for their behaviour, choosing to accept the findings of a report they they themselves commissioned, and choosing to believe their ex players and partners, then that is wholly up to the Hawthorn Football Club.

By the by,  what the hell does independent witnesses mean? Independent of whom? 

And i'll add. what point are you trying to make about the authors of the review? What's your motivation for asking that question?

By the by, one assumes it would be easy enough for you to answer your own question. Try google.

[Bystander 903]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:54, binman said:

What does that mean?

Resolved in what sense - a legal sense?

If resolved in the sense of the Hawks taking responsibility for their behaviour, choosing to accept the findings of a report they they themselves commissioned, and choosing to believe their ex players and partners, then that is wholly up to the Hawthorn Football Club.

By the by,  what the hell does independent witnesses mean? Independent of whom? 

 

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What I mean is that I would be surprised if those accused of this agree with what has been alleged. Those accused are entitled to give their version of events. Independent means independent. It is not clear if the authors of the report spoke to the alleged perpetrators.

[Jaded No More 68,976]

  On 21/09/2022 at 01:00, Bystander said:

What I mean is that I would be surprised if those accused of this agree with what has been alleged. Those accused are entitled to give their version of events. Independent means independent. It is not clear if the authors of the report spoke to the alleged perpetrators.

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Not too difficult to get medical records to prove things like abortions.

 

[BW511 2,730]

  On 21/09/2022 at 01:00, Bystander said:

What I mean is that I would be surprised if those accused of this agree with what has been alleged. Those accused are entitled to give their version of events. Independent means independent. It is not clear if the authors of the report spoke to the alleged perpetrators.

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I mean, the ABC would have had to cover off a lot of things to get this to the public. The implications on them would be enormous if it’s found to be untrue.

I don’t doubt that the accused would try and deny it, because it will ruin them

Edited September 21, 2022 by BW511

[old55 23,867]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:33, binman said:

I'm struggling to process this news

If the allegations are true, and reading the ABC article it's hard not assume they are, this is beyond comprehension.

Horrors like this sound like something that has come to light from the 1950s or 60s, and that collectively we all say that's horrific, thank god things have changed. But it is alleged to have happened in the last 15 years. I'm shocked.

Again, if true, this is on another level all together to the bombers drug scandal. Both scenarios involve a complete breach of trust, but this is something else entirely.

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Thanks Binman for articulating how I felt about this. It is hard to process - happening at the same time as the apology to stolen generations, it's truly gobsmackingly horrible stuff.

[Mazer Rackham 14,972]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:04, Neil Crompton said:

Again, if true, we will see if the AFL has the balls to do what needs to be done. 

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I think we already know the answer to that. The integrity department is going to get a mighty workout.

[layzie 34,529]

  On 21/09/2022 at 01:05, BW511 said:

I mean, the ABC would have had to cover off a lot of things to get this to the public. The implications on them would be enormous if it’s found to be untrue.

I don’t doubt that the accused would try and deny it, because it will ruin them

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Russell Jackson is no scrub either and does his research. Broke the story on the treatment of Robbie Muir during his St Kilda years. 

[DeeMee 924]

Definitely Cult like behaviour. Isolate from family and friends, listen only to the almighty leaders.

For once can the AFL act with integrity instead of PR garbage.

[layzie 34,529]

  On 21/09/2022 at 01:08, old55 said:

Thanks Binman for articulating how I felt about this. It is hard to process - happening at the same time as the apology to stolen generations, it's truly gobsmackingly horrible stuff.

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Yep, I think we're all really struggling the comprehend it all. We probably aren't ready for it either as it goes well above and beyond anything really. Just when you think society has evolved we take a massive backward step. 

Edited September 21, 2022 by layzie

[Redleg 42,195]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:04, Neil Crompton said:

This will be huge.

If true, I would be tearing up Clarkson’s contract at North. 
Again, if true, we will see if the AFL has the balls to do what needs to be done. 

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Waiting for the spin to start.

[sue 9,281]

Of course it is unlikely there will be an independent witness of the type Bystander seems to mean, an uninvolved "bystander" who witnesses the events.  However, there may well be a lot of peripheral evidence that gives credence to the claims such as others that were told at the time.  And then there is a possibility that someone involved in a relatively minor way may speak up. 

[binman 44,900]

  On 21/09/2022 at 01:00, Bystander said:

What I mean is that I would be surprised if those accused of this agree with what has been alleged. Those accused are entitled to give their version of events. Independent means independent. It is not clear if the authors of the report spoke to the alleged perpetrators.

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And?

How does that go to the issue of whether it is resolved or not?

Again, the Hawks can choose to accept the finding of the report they commissioned and act accordingly. That's to say, resolve this as best they can. 

The three key people alleged to have behaved so horrifically are no longer at the club, so nothing direcly to resolve there from a Hawthorn perspective (ie they don't have to sack anyone). 

But i will be totally shocked if they don't make a serious and meaningful attempt to find a path to resolution with the players and their families. 

Even if you mean resolved in legal sense, i'm no lawyer but guilty people often deny wrong doing. Doesn't always stop them being found guilty 

By the by, you didn't initially ask if the authors of the report spoke to the alleged perpetrators.

You asked who the authors of the report were.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but an implication one could could draw from that question is you are somehow questioning the professionalism of the report's authors and therefore their findings.  

 

[Lord Travis 10,819]

  On 21/09/2022 at 00:10, YesitwasaWin4theAges said:

How would Yze have a say in anything Hawthorn did he was a development coach.

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One of the development coaches was directly implicated in this, pushing to cut off relationship, pushed abortion, fronted partner on players behalf etc. There is absolutely a chance Yze is part of this. Based on what I just read, seems all coaches were likely involved. He's innocent until proven otherwise though, so let's hope he wasn't involved and our club is doing better than the Hawks reportedly did!