POSTGAME: Rd 13 vs Collingwood

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 hour ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Has any poster said '... players are on mass suddenly not fit, etc etc...'  I don't think I have.

Just like none of the posters who think we might be loading have said it's the only factor for our performances and everything else is totally fine.

Some pretty disingenuous comments coming out on both sides of the 'loading' discussion now that so many are in bad moods after a few losses.

[binman 43,779]

3 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

 

Some of us have been highlighting absent players, illness, in game injuries and opp tactics for weeks only for them to be given lip service with 'loading' proposed as the major cause of our recent performances. 

Glad to see they are now being given at least equal recognition with 'loading'.

Not a single person has said issues like absent players, illness, in game injuries and oppo tactics are not factors in our form

But they are not the biggest factor, even collectively.

Loading is the biggest factor. 

Just as it was last year. 

And is worth noting that loading directly exacerbates issues like absent players, illness, in game injuries and even oppo tactics (wow teams are gong though the corridor - they must have solved the puzzle; just like last year - until they didn't)

The exact same debate raged for six weeks or so last year, and at the same point in the season.

I could link to any number of posts where i said loading was the biggest factor and any number of posts rubbishing that opinion.

The posters rubbishing that opinion will no doubt disagree, but i was proved correct. 

Anyway, as i have said, happy for you to believe that loading is not having the impact i, and many others, think it is. 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by binman

[ElDiablo14 5,002]

3 minutes ago, binman said:

Not a single person has said we issues like absent players, illness, in game injuries and oppo tactics are not factors in our form

But they are not the biggest factor, even collectively.

Loading is the biggest factor. 

Just as it was last year. 

And is worth noting that loading directly exacerbates issues like absent players, illness,  in game injuries and even opp tactics (wow teams are gong though the corridor - they must have solved the puzzle; juts like last year - until they didn't))

The exact same debate raged for six weeks or so last year, and at the same point the season.

I could link to any number of posts where i said loading was the biggest factor and any number of post rubbishing that opinion.

The posters rubbishing that opinion will no doubt disagree, but i was proved correct. 

Anyway, as i have said happy for you to belive that loading is not having the impact i, and many others, think it is. 

 

Question remains, are we the only single team that does loading? No other team out there seems to be struggling like we are with stamina.

[1964_2 2,357]

12 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Question remains, are we the only single team that does loading? No other team out there seems to be struggling like we are with stamina.

We are the only team that was 10-0, and in a position to push the "loading" to the limits. 

 

[ElDiablo14 5,002]

4 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

We are the only team that was 10-0, and in a position to push the "loading" to the limits. 

 

So nothing except a 8 - 1 or 7 - 2 run will be acceptable.

[Clintosaurus 7,861]

17 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

We are the only team that was 10-0, and in a position to push the "loading" to the limits. 

 

Reckon 10-0 enabled us to go earlier and harder.

[layzie 34,003]

I'm more than happy to accept loading as a key factor, what I don't want it to take away from is our ability to play the game of football. This means gathering a ball cleanly, handballing to someone 3 metres away, making good decisions etc.

I am glad to see Binman presenting facts on loading and being unequivocal in his stance on this, I respect that a lot. What I don't want is people (and yes they are in the minority) using loading as an excuse for missing a shot from 15 out, fumbling in the goal square and stuff like that. Yes we might be loading but I still want to win the games if we have a chance to because otherwise scrap loading just send a reserves team out there. 

[binman 43,779]

1 hour ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Question remains, are we the only single team that does loading? No other team out there seems to be struggling like we are with stamina.

Hells bells, i have answered this question multiple times and can't be bothered doing so again, other than to say of course we are not the only team loading ATM and the other contenders ARE struggling with stamina RIGHT now.

Don't believe me?

Watch the Freo v hawks replay. Freo were clearly fatigued and had none of the zip they had against us. The commentators made that very point ie that Freo clearly didn't have their normally run and speed. Why not? 

And then watch the Lions v saints replay. You will never see two more fatigued teams. Both looked completely gassed almost from the get go.

Fumbles, skill execution issues, woeful kicks, inability to get back and defend, players on their haunches from early in the game etc etc. This from two top 4 aspirants. Sound familiar?

In commentary, Brown made the observation on multiple occasion that the lions looked exhausted.

The saints were equally gassed - and that was before the lost 2 players during the game. After that point they could barely raise a gallop. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by binman

[von 1,572]

15 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I think there is far bigger concerns then just the whole 'loading' narrative.

My reasoning is we are more banged up this year then last. This time last year we had majority of our playing squad who hadn't missed games at all going into the bye.

This year we've had certain players either missed through injury, illness or form and also some playing incredibly sore and looks like it's about to continue on with Gawn, Petty and the likes. All Australian players like Lever, Petracca, Salem are also out of form and are struggling post their injuries.

The other aspect is when we did lose to teams last year we didn't get out to 20 or 30 point lead and then just go to water like we have with teams this year. Our 2nd half's over the last 3 week is one of the worst in the competition. 

Our defence and pressure was still quiet high last year compared to this year where we are sitting 2nd last for pressure just ahead of Essendon. We barely dropped that low at all and to me this is a far bigger concern.

Lastly, teams have finally worked us out now. Hawthorn laid the blue print this year and now clubs have followed through. Clubs were still trying to work on how to stop our defensive half but now clubs are piecing through by using the corridor and speeding up the ball movement. 

We haven't adjusted at all for the last 3 weeks, in fact our coaches have been slow to react to this which is actually quiet considering I felt last year we reacted a lot quicker when challenged.

Loading is not even a factor for me right at this minute.  It might be for some but there are some warning signs that need to be rectified very quickly after the bye if we are to stay top 4 especially coming up against Brisbane and Geelong.

 

The “teams have worked us out, this is the blue print” media narrative is utter crap. Teams beat us the same way last year. It happened because we were off and couldn’t cover as well. When teams try that against us when we are on it blows up in their face.

[DeeSpencer 26,082]

Collingwood moved the ball quickly and found the corridor at times, but they also picked holes in the zone as they did last year. Knowing that our wingers both press too high at times (as instructed). And they found our biggest flaw which is getting the ball to the ground in our forward line quickly and getting on to it first.

That's why I don't really understand why we took speed out of our back half by dropping Hunt and Rivers at the same time, even if Rivers is down a little due to his knee injury.

We played 3 tall defenders, Brayshaw as the main interceptor and Hibbo as a back pocket. That means Salem and Bowey were left to cover a lot on the deck. 

Things look better with May back, but look at the Pies with Howe, Moore, Maynard, Qaynor, Daicos, Noble, Murphy... thats a back 7 that can seriously cover the ground.

Going forward is certainly the main issue though and a lot of it is the same MCG problems that have haunted us for years. We can't get the fat side forwards across to the contest and we can't get the ball to them on the fat side once we've gone so wide to begin with.

On skinnier grounds it's easier to get back involved in play from the fat side. Kickers can get to you or you can get to the next contest.

We're simply playing too wide, too slow and subsequently too quick all at the same time.

We showed a good desire to switch and use shorter targets from half back against Collingwood to open up the corridor. Next step is to straighten up across half forward, but without Tommy Mc that won't be easy. It's going to take more run from the backline, more midfield spread and ability to get the ball diagonally through the centre of the ground which is something that we just haven't been doing.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

58 minutes ago, binman said:

Hells bells, i have answered this question multiple times and can't be bothered doing so again, other than to say of course we are not the only team loading ATM and the other contenders ARE struggling with stamina RIGHT now.

Don't believe me?

Watch the Freo v hawks replay. Freo were clearly fatigued and had none of the zip they had against us. The commentators made that very point ie that Freo clearly didn't have their normally run and speed. Why not? 

And then watch the Lions v saints replay. You will never see two more fatigued teams. Both looked completely gassed almost from the get go.

Fumbles, skill execution issues, woeful kicks, inability to get back and defend, players on their haunches from early in the game etc etc. This from two top 4 aspirants. Sound familiar?

In commentary, Brown made the observation on multiple occasion that the lions looked exhausted.

The saints were equally gassed - and that was before the lost 2 players during the game. After that point they could barely raise a gallop. 

Brisbane were coming off a 6 day break from Perth! Haha. 

That is simply fatigue from short turnaround.. But I'm sure you completely missed that because it better fits your theory that all top 4 teams are loading currently. 

You're trying to squeeze every ounce of 'evidence' to suit this loading theory and its getting ridiculous. Similar to how you used to bang on about Oscar endlessly. 

To me and many others, it's clear there are a whole host of reasons that are the main contributors to us losing. 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by JimmyGadson

[1964_2 2,357]

1 hour ago, layzie said:

I'm more than happy to accept loading as a key factor, what I don't want it to take away from is our ability to play the game of football. This means gathering a ball cleanly, handballing to someone 3 metres away, making good decisions etc.

I am glad to see Binman presenting facts on loading and being unequivocal in his stance on this, I respect that a lot. What I don't want is people (and yes they are in the minority) using loading as an excuse for missing a shot from 15 out, fumbling in the goal square and stuff like that. Yes we might be loading but I still want to win the games if we have a chance to because otherwise scrap loading just send a reserves team out there. 

This has also been discussed. Fatigue means greater risk of skill/execution errors. 

So, unfortunately am going to have to disagree with your point above, and say that yes loading also has an effect on basic football skills / execution. 

Be hard to argue it’s a coincidence that the worst of our skill / execution errors have occurred in 2nd halves over the last 3 weeks. 
 

[dpositive 1,684]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Hells bells, i have answered this question multiple times and can't be bothered doing so again, other than to say of course we are not the only team loading ATM and the other contenders ARE struggling with stamina RIGHT now.

Don't believe me?

Watch the Freo v hawks replay. Freo were clearly fatigued and had none of the zip they had against us. The commentators made that very point ie that Freo clearly didn't have their normally run and speed. Why not? 

And then watch the Lions v saints replay. You will never see two more fatigued teams. Both looked completely gassed almost from the get go.

Fumbles, skill execution issues, woeful kicks, inability to get back and defend, players on their haunches from early in the game etc etc. This from two top 4 aspirants. Sound familiar?

In commentary, Brown made the observation on multiple occasion that the lions looked exhausted.

The saints were equally gassed - and that was before the lost 2 players during the game. After that point they could barely raise a gallop. 

Thanks BM you have put up a good defence and even been able to modify that defence with a few different strategies and explanations. Worthy of the Dees defence. You could be the May around which others gather.

I am buoyed by your arguments and have said with absolutely no idea that we were in front wth 8 minutes to go against Fremantle,  3 minutes to go against Sydney and I'm not sure but in the last quarter against Collingwood. 

Injuries played a part Petty and Gawn were outstanding, how they managed to stay upright says something about their fitness with or without loading. Others may have illness injury or just plain overuse, we are about to fnd out.

its a great season, it was difficult to take all this constant winning. Personally I abhor any form of financial gambling but I hope your strategy reaps you a rich reward. 

[The Swimming Dee 1,904]

2 hours ago, ElDiablo14 said:

So nothing except a 8 - 1 or 7 - 2 run will be acceptable.

Even if we win the premiership?

[layzie 34,003]

22 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

This has also been discussed. Fatigue means greater risk of skill/execution errors. 

So, unfortunately am going to have to disagree with your point above, and say that yes loading also has an effect on basic football skills / execution. 

Be hard to argue it’s a coincidence that the worst of our skill / execution errors have occurred in 2nd halves over the last 3 weeks. 
 

I don't disagree entirely with that statement. I can see how our skills would be affected by fatigue and energy being sapped but if this is the case then where do you draw the line? We often hear so much about 'flirting with form' in the junk time games of the year and how detrimental it can be to rest players. Is it possible that they see this as a better method to battle harden our players so when we get to the pointy end we are able to just bash through like we did against GC, WC, Adel, the rest last year no matter where or when?

I can see it being a plausibile reason but at the same time I'd see it as a slight shame. Max kicking that one late against the Swans could have been enough for the win, Trac fumbling in the goalsquare really felt deflating in a game where goals were at a premium. To have come out of this period with 1 win 2 losses would have been a lot better than zip and 3 in my view considering the tough remaining draw. 

I'm much more in the camp of loading existing, I've now just got my questions about it and I sincerely hope the trade off will be worth it. 

Edited June 15, 2022 by layzie

[binman 43,779]

30 minutes ago, layzie said:

Max kicking that one late against the Swans could have been enough for the win, Trac fumbling in the goalsquare really felt deflating in a game where goals were at a premium. To have come out of this period with 1 win 2 losses would have been a lot better than zip and 3 in my view considering the tough remaining draw. 

I'm much more in the camp of loading existing, I've now just got my questions about it and I sincerely hope the trade off will be worth it. 

Excellent points.

As dpostive correctly notes we were ahead late in all three losses. So we had our chances to scramble a win. I was really impressed by Freo's win against the hawks for this reason ie they did scramble a win when clearly fatigued.

Last year we did well to scramble some wins in this period (though still went 3 losses, 1 draw and 2 wins from rounds 13 -19).

The Port, Swans and Bombers games were all good examples of us winning when playing sub optimally. Unfortunately this year the outs and injuries, and in particular the in game injuries, have made things that much harder for us. 

For context, we were 11-2 at this same stage last year. We are 10-3 now, so in much the same position. I actually think we have played really well in all three losses given the challenges we have faced.

Yes loading carries a risk in the short term in terms of losing games we might otherwise win, but we have no chance of winning a flag without loading now. Nor do the Freo, Saints, Lions or the blues (the teams fighting for a top 4 spot - no other team has realistic chance of winning the flag this year)

Nothing has changed. We are the best team in the AFL. By a significant margin.

That is of course no guarantee we will win this year's flag.

By far the biggest determinant of success in the AFL is injury. Always has been and always will be. If we have a bad run with injury between now and the end of the season then we won't win the flag. 

If we have a good run with injury, i am extremely confident we will win the flag. 

Goody has said we are in better shape this season than last year. People can scoff all they want, but that is his stated opinion. And i'm happy to accept the word of our head coach. 

All the hand wringers (i don't count you in this group layzie) should harden up and have some bloody faith. Surely the club has earned that. 

 

Edited June 15, 2022 by binman

[1964_2 2,357]

24 minutes ago, binman said:

Excellent points.

As dpostive correctly notes we were ahead late in all three losses. So we had our chances to scramble a win. I was really impressed by Freo's win against the hawks for this reason ie they did scramble a win when clearly fatigued.

Last year we did well to scramble some wins in this period (though still went 3 losses, 1 draw and 2 wins from rounds 13 -19).

The Port, Swans and Bombers games were all good examples of us winning when playing sub optimally. Unfortunately this year the outs and injuries, and in particular the in game injuries, have made things that much harder for us. 

For context, we were 11-2 at this same stage last year. We are 10-3 now, so in much the same position. I actually think we have played really well in all three losses given the challenges we have faced.

Yes loading carries a risk in the short term in terms of losing games we might otherwise win, but we have no chance of winning a flag without loading now. Nor do the Freo, Saints, Lions or the blues (the teams fighting for a top 4 spot - no other team has realistic chance of winning the flag this year)

Nothing has changed. We are the best team in the AFL. By a significant margin.

That is of course no guarantee we will win this year's flag.

By far the biggest determinant of success in the AFL is injury. Always has been and always will be. If we have a bad run with injury between now and the end of the season then we won't win the flag. 

If we have a good run with injury, i am extremely confident we will win the flag. 

Goody has said we are in better shape this season than last year. People can scoff all they want, but that is his stated opinion. And i'm happy to accept the word of our head coach. 

All the hand wringers (i don't count you in this group layzie) should harden up and have some bloody faith. Surely the club has earned that. 

 

Bring on $5 odds for the flag.

"gamble responsibly"

 

[1964_2 2,357]

33 minutes ago, binman said:

Excellent points.

As dpostive correctly notes we were ahead late in all three losses. So we had our chances to scramble a win. I was really impressed by Freo's win against the hawks for this reason ie they did scramble a win when clearly fatigued.

Last year we did well to scramble some wins in this period (though still went 3 losses, 1 draw and 2 wins from rounds 13 -19).

The Port, Swans and Bombers games were all good examples of us winning when playing sub optimally. Unfortunately this year the outs and injuries, and in particular the in game injuries, have made things that much harder for us. 

For context, we were 11-2 at this same stage last year. We are 10-3 now, so in much the same position. I actually think we have played really well in all three losses given the challenges we have faced.

Yes loading carries a risk in the short term in terms of losing games we might otherwise win, but we have no chance of winning a flag without loading now. Nor do the Freo, Saints, Lions or the blues (the teams fighting for a top 4 spot - no other team has realistic chance of winning the flag this year)

Nothing has changed. We are the best team in the AFL. By a significant margin.

That is of course no guarantee we will win this year's flag.

By far the biggest determinant of success in the AFL is injury. Always has been and always will be. If we have a bad run with injury between now and the end of the season then we won't win the flag. 

If we have a good run with injury, i am extremely confident we will win the flag. 

Goody has said we are in better shape this season than last year. People can scoff all they want, but that is his stated opinion. And i'm happy to accept the word of our head coach. 

All the hand wringers (i don't count you in this group layzie) should harden up and have some bloody faith. Surely the club has earned that. 

 

 

When did he say this? Not doubting you, just be keen to see the comments in context 

 

[dazzledavey36 55,358]

2 hours ago, von said:

The “teams have worked us out, this is the blue print” media narrative is utter crap. Teams beat us the same way last year. It happened because we were off and couldn’t cover as well. When teams try that against us when we are on it blows up in their face.

No they didn't.

[von 1,572]

13 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

No they didn't.

Go and watch Collingwood and Adelaide stream through the middle on the turnover with lethargic Melbourne not able to cover it. So identical it’s amazing how short sighted the media are. 
If you disagree, how do you think teams beat us last year?

[layzie 34,003]

2 hours ago, binman said:

Excellent points.

As dpostive correctly notes we were ahead late in all three losses. So we had our chances to scramble a win. I was really impressed by Freo's win against the hawks for this reason ie they did scramble a win when clearly fatigued.

Last year we did well to scramble some wins in this period (though still went 3 losses, 1 draw and 2 wins from rounds 13 -19).

The Port, Swans and Bombers games were all good examples of us winning when playing sub optimally. Unfortunately this year the outs and injuries, and in particular the in game injuries, have made things that much harder for us. 

For context, we were 11-2 at this same stage last year. We are 10-3 now, so in much the same position. I actually think we have played really well in all three losses given the challenges we have faced.

Yes loading carries a risk in the short term in terms of losing games we might otherwise win, but we have no chance of winning a flag without loading now. Nor do the Freo, Saints, Lions or the blues (the teams fighting for a top 4 spot - no other team has realistic chance of winning the flag this year)

Nothing has changed. We are the best team in the AFL. By a significant margin.

That is of course no guarantee we will win this year's flag.

By far the biggest determinant of success in the AFL is injury. Always has been and always will be. If we have a bad run with injury between now and the end of the season then we won't win the flag. 

If we have a good run with injury, i am extremely confident we will win the flag. 

Goody has said we are in better shape this season than last year. People can scoff all they want, but that is his stated opinion. And i'm happy to accept the word of our head coach. 

All the hand wringers (i don't count you in this group layzie) should harden up and have some bloody faith. Surely the club has earned that. 

 

Gonna be quite the show tonight I reckon Binman, looking forward to it!

Edited June 15, 2022 by layzie

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,408]

Does anyone remember what qtr Petty was concussed / fell backwards in the marking contest with Miohcheck?

[binman 43,779]

3 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

Does anyone remember what qtr Petty was concussed / fell backwards in the marking contest with Miohcheck?

Third I think.

Only a few minutes after disco knocked himself out. 

[At Least I Saw a Flag 5,274]

I have totally avoided all replays + football shows since Monday. Can't stand hearing about our apparent demise, and the rise of the filth.

Will probably continue to do so until the Brisbane match.

[binman 43,779]

11 minutes ago, Winners at last said:

I have totally avoided all replays + football shows since Monday. Can't stand hearing about our apparent demise, and the rise of the filth.

Will probably continue to do so until the Brisbane match.

Snap. Me too