In Season - Loading/Periodisation: Put your conjecture here.

[binman 42,932]

11 minutes ago, The heart beats true said:

I find the Scott comments fascinating. Selwood went out of his way to mention it. He’s a very experienced player. There’s just no way this got on the agenda by accident.

I think they wanted other clubs to know, arguably because they’ve been late to the party. It never had to be mentioned in any way, but it was - by their long term captain whose spent 15 years toeing the line with the media.

Maybe I’m cynical but it’s out there for a reason. 

You may be right, at least in terms of why Selwood chose to raise it.

But it seemed to me that Scott would have preferred he didn't do so.

[layzie 33,796]

29 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Re “we’re in this together” completely agree. I guess in my mind “together” includes with the players, coaches and club, rather than turning on them whenever things get tough. 

But understand my view is potentially idealistic and not realistic, re the typical nature of supporter groups. 

Even I could use a bit more of your patience trust me on that!

[1964_2 2,357]

34 minutes ago, binman said:

You may be right, at least in terms of why Selwood chose to raise it.

But it seemed to me that Scott would have preferred he didn't do so.

Disagree with this view BM. If Scott didn't want to raise it, he could have easily shut it down (re response to Selwood comments), rather than add layers of depth to it as he did. 

 

 

[Lucifers Hero 39,776]

1 hour ago, The heart beats true said:

I think they wanted other clubs to know, arguably because they’ve been late to the party. It never had to be mentioned in any way, but it was - by their long term captain whose spent 15 years toeing the line with the media.

Scott said something like they hadn't been able to do it the last few years.  I'm guessing that is because they didn't have the know how.  

Shannon Byrnes joining them after our premiership, even tho he was in a development role with us, would have given them the framework/concepts to research and build/modify their training programs and probably gave them a bit of IP learnt from the Master, Darren Burgess.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[Sir Why You Little 37,035]

15 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Scott said something like they hadn't been able to do it the last few years.  I'm guessing that is because they didn't have the know how.  

Shannon Byrnes joining them after our premiership would have given them the framework/concepts to build/modify their training programs and probably a bit of IP learnt from the Master, Darren Burgess.

Good Point shannon would have seen the full transformation. He came to us when standards were  pretty low

Edited June 24, 2022 by Sir Why You Little

[Vipercrunch 2,827]

6 minutes ago, 1964_2 said:

Disagree with this view BM. If Scott didn't want to raise it, he could have easily shut it down (re response to Selwood comments), rather than add layers of depth to it as he did. 

 

 

Agree with this.  I didnt see 360, but in the press conference he was volunteering way more information that the reporters seemed to be chasing.  He was very expansive and seemed to very much want to have it on the record and in the public domain.

Maybe someone who wanted to close down the discussion had spoken to him in between the press conference and 360?

[The heart beats true 18,123]

1 hour ago, Vipercrunch said:

Agree with this.  I didnt see 360, but in the press conference he was volunteering way more information that the reporters seemed to be chasing.  He was very expansive and seemed to very much want to have it on the record and in the public domain.

Maybe someone who wanted to close down the discussion had spoken to him in between the press conference and 360?

Perhaps there are ramifications for the AFL and it’s integrity from a gambling perspective? It certainly seems like, in a media industry obsessed with every minute detail, no one is going near this with a 10 foot pole. Maybe Scott was told to put a dampener on it.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

I think the flu which was reported to have got Petracca has had a bigger impact.

[Nairobi_Demon 335]

11 hours ago, 1964_2 said:

Another point you have in-directly touched on. Coaching groups are aware that 4 qtr’s of high intensity effort is unlikely in most home and away games. This fact impacts strategy with regards to game style, rotations and match ups.

in our 3 loading effected losses, we started strongly, and mostly had good first half’s. Potentially was some strategy of attempting to get a lead and then defend it.

Last night we didn’t really hit our straps until the second qtr. Maybe this was due to the confidence that we were fresh and would be able to run out the game! 
 

either way, both sides of this argument, and other commentators really need to acknowledge that us outsiders are missing so many of the key details/elements to enable us to make strong statements about why certain things happen within a game. 

I was thinking the same and posted similar thoughts earlier today in the postgame thread. It is quite a significant change in pacing for us. All last year we tended to go hard in Q1 and establish a lead, ease off in Q2, put our foot down in Q3, and then hold in Q4 (ex the PF and GF when we kept the foot on the pedal until the end). 

[Adam The God 30,245]

19 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Scott said something like they hadn't been able to do it the last few years.  I'm guessing that is because they didn't have the know how.  

Shannon Byrnes joining them after our premiership, even tho he was in a development role with us, would have given them the framework/concepts to research and build/modify their training programs and probably gave them a bit of IP learnt from the Master, Darren Burgess.

I could be wrong, but Scott's comments I read were that they hadn't got it right the last few years, which is a reason to go even harder.

I think it's their game plan and personnel, not their fitness at the pointy end.

[Adam The God 30,245]

18 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

I think the flu which was reported to have got Petracca has had a bigger impact.

Having the flu at the moment, which caused me to miss Thursday night's game (wifey was on my case about exacerbating it by attending), I can't imagine trying to do high intensity exercise with this.

[Lucifers Hero 39,776]

50 minutes ago, A F said:

I could be wrong, but Scott's comments I read were that they hadn't got it right the last few years, which is a reason to go even harder.

I think it's their game plan and personnel, not their fitness at the pointy end.

Can't remember which media video I heard him on but recall it being they hadn't been able to do much in recent years.  I recall him saying the players had their bye break and were prepared to put in hard training so it sound like the loading was prolonged. 

Can you refer me his comment that you read?  Did he say actually they went 'even harder' this year or is that an assumption? 

My main point was that having Shannon Byrnes would have given them a bit of IP on the programs used at the dees be the programs be sports science models or computer programs. 

[BDA 22,752]

1 hour ago, A F said:

I could be wrong, but Scott's comments I read were that they hadn't got it right the last few years, which is a reason to go even harder.

I think it's their game plan and personnel, not their fitness at the pointy end.

Agree. It’s game plan and personnel but they have to tell themselves something 

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

1 hour ago, A F said:

Having the flu at the moment, which caused me to miss Thursday night's game (wifey was on my case about exacerbating it by attending), I can't imagine trying to do high intensity exercise with this.

I have it as well, totally knocked me around for over a week now.

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

2 hours ago, Clint Bizkit said:

I have it as well, totally knocked me around for over a week now.

Me too, I just ran 15km for the first time in 2 months (when I first got it....lingering...lingering, phlegm)... I've just barfed my lungs up. 🤮   #humblebrag 😉

Edited June 25, 2022 by Engorged Onion

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

5 hours ago, A F said:

(wifey was on my case about exacerbating it by attending)

You too huh? 🤣

[Adam The God 30,245]

6 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Can't remember which media video I heard him on but recall it being they hadn't been able to do much in recent years.  I recall him saying the players had their bye break and were prepared to put in hard training so it sound like the loading was prolonged. 

Can you refer me his comment that you read?  Did he say actually they went 'even harder' this year or is that an assumption? 

My main point was that having Shannon Byrnes would have given them a bit of IP on the programs used at the dees be the programs be sports science models or computer programs. 

https://www.afl.com.au/news/781691

"It's what we do during the middle period of the year. We double down, even more than we might have done in previous years," Scott said.

"We might cost ourselves a little short-term, but we set up our program to be at our best when it counts.

"If we finish ninth because we try to prime ourselves to be at our best later in the year, then we'll live with that.

"We haven't been able to execute that over the last few years anyway. That's a reason to do it better."

[Lucifers Hero 39,776]

 

12 hours ago, A F said:

"It's what we do during the middle period of the year. We double down, even more than we might have done in previous years," Scott said.

"We haven't been able to execute that over the last few years anyway. That's a reason to do it better."

That is what I recall hearing altho hadn't seen it written.

I interpreted those comments as not having done much (loading) or not 'executed' it very well in recent years and they need to be better.  I didn't interpret it as 'go harder'.  More like be smarter.

It was in that context that I made my original post (below) referring to Byrne's recruitment giving them some 'know how' to get better.

On 6/24/2022 at 4:23 PM, Lucifers Hero said:

Scott said something like they hadn't been able to do it the last few years.  I'm guessing that is because they didn't have the know how.  

Shannon Byrnes joining them after our premiership, even tho he was in a development role with us, would have given them the framework/concepts to research and build/modify their training programs and probably gave them a bit of IP learnt from the Master, Darren Burgess.

I'm still comfortable with that interpretation.

Edited June 25, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[Lucifers Hero 39,776]

Somewhere, Scott says it (loading) is what they do in the middle of the year ie during the bye.  Based on that, one would expect any form drop off to be after their bye.  He also said he thought the impact of loading on form is overstated. 

While every club is different his comments make me wonder about all the DL posts that were adamant losses to Freo (rnds 9 and 10), Lions (rnds 10 and 12) and Demons (rnds 11 - 13) were 'mainly' due to loading.  All had their byes after those loses, in round 14.

Given our fixture, to me it makes more sense that our loading is between rounds 12 and 16 where we have 8, 9, 8 days break between games.  After that we have a 5 day break and another 9 day break.  Plenty of time to load up and recover over that 6 weeks with minimal affect on results. 

Intuitively, with this fixture it makes more sense to me that we have several 'smaller' load peaks over rounds 12 -18 tapering towards the end, rather than one huge peak over 2/3 weeks before the bye.  Also it doesn't make much sense to me that we would load up players when so many had been ill or injured over rounds 8 to 12.  Get them healthy, give them a rest then, load up...

Note: number of days break does not include the day of the subsequent game. 

Edited June 25, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 hour ago, Lucifers Hero said:

He also said he thought the impact of loading on form is overstated.

Where abouts was that bit Luci? I might have missed it or not be remembering it. Got a link? I remember him saying 'if they don't make the 8 because of it....' which to me pretty firmly implies he thinks it does have a big impact.

[FlashInThePan 1,893]

1 hour ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Somewhere, Scott says it (loading) is what they do in the middle of the year ie during the bye.  Based on that, one would expect any form drop off to be after their bye.  He also said he thought the impact of loading on form is overstated. 

While every club is different his comments make me wonder about all the DL posts that were adamant losses to Freo (rnds 9 and 10), Lions (rnds 10 and 12) and Demons (rnds 11 - 13) were 'mainly' due to loading.  All had their byes after those loses, in round 14.

Given our fixture, to me it makes more sense that our loading is between rounds 12 and 16 where we have 8, 9, 8 days break between games.  After that we have a 5 day break and another 9 day break.  Plenty of time to load up and recover over that 6 weeks with minimal affect on results. 

Intuitively, with this fixture it makes more sense to me that we have several 'smaller' load peaks over rounds 12 -18 tapering towards the end, rather than one huge peak over 2/3 weeks before the bye.  Also it doesn't make much sense to me that we would load up players when so many had been ill or injured over rounds 8 to 12.  Get them healthy, give them a rest then, load up...

Note: number of days break does not include the day of the subsequent game. 

According to the periodisation charts earlier in this thread (if that is what the club are doing), you don’t get to pick a convenient window to get your loading done, you work the schedule.

 Separately, the effect of loading on the performance of the team will have a heck of a lot to do with game style. For a chip kick/possess plan like the cats had last year, the effects would be minimised. You might hardly be able to tell that they are loading at all. Fortunately or unfortunately our game plan is massively aerobically based. Our zone and press rely on lots of unrewarded running and repeat efforts. So on the unfortunate side, when we increase training loads and players fatigue quicker in games it has a very noticeable effect on performance. On the fortunate side, when we taper and see the benefits…Bang, bang, bang, bang!

To be clear, I don’t know if we are loading or not. But if I were a betting man, I’d be putting the family home on it. 

[Lucifers Hero 39,776]

23 minutes ago, FlashInThePan said:

According to the periodisation charts earlier in this thread (if that is what the club are doing), you don’t get to pick a convenient window to get your loading done, you work the schedule.

To be clear, I don’t know if we are loading or not. But if I were a betting man, I’d be putting the family home on it. 

tbh I haven't looked at those charts much as it is but one methodology and no one knows if we are using that methodology.

Chris Scott said on AFL 360 that they have chosen the bye for loading which sounds like a 'convenient window' thus suggesting they are not using 'periodisation' charts/methodology. 

On your last point, I've never doubted that we undertake loading.  Just haven't been convinced that it was in rounds 9-10 and that it 'mainly' explains ours losses (Similar thoughts on Freo's and Lion's) pre bye.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[Lucifers Hero 39,776]

41 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Where abouts was that bit Luci? I might have missed it or not be remembering it. Got a link? I remember him saying 'if they don't make the 8 because of it....' which to me pretty firmly implies he thinks it does have a big impact.

Don't relish ploughing through Scott's press conf/media appearance videos again, tbh...will do my best to find it.

Edited June 26, 2022 by Lucifers Hero

[binman 42,932]

 

2 hours ago, FlashInThePan said:

According to the periodisation charts earlier in this thread (if that is what the club are doing), you don’t get to pick a convenient window to get your loading done, you work the schedule.

 Separately, the effect of loading on the performance of the team will have a heck of a lot to do with game style. For a chip kick/possess plan like the cats had last year, the effects would be minimised. You might hardly be able to tell that they are loading at all. Fortunately or unfortunately our game plan is massively aerobically based. Our zone and press rely on lots of unrewarded running and repeat efforts. So on the unfortunate side, when we increase training loads and players fatigue quicker in games it has a very noticeable effect on performance. On the fortunate side, when we taper and see the benefits…Bang, bang, bang, bang!

To be clear, I don’t know if we are loading or not. But if I were a betting man, I’d be putting the family home on it. 

That's exactly right.

Our game plan, our 'method' as Goody has been calling it, is completely dependent on players doing the sort of all team gut running and covering the sort of distances we saw on Thursday night.

Our offence is completely dependent on that all team gut running. Take it away and our scoring falls off a cliff. The same is true of Freo. But not of Carlton or the Cats

We saw the difference to our offence on Thursday night. Brown played better, but was no star. Same goes for weed.

Our three genuine talls (Brown, weed, jacko) could only manage two goals between them (and ironically Jackson's goal was from a ground ball get, not a mark).

Yet, we pulverised the lions, kicked 16 goals, our inside 50 to score ratio was off the charts and we took 14 marks inside 50 to their 8 (a function of of our all team, gut running creating free players inside 50 - a good example is the possession chain that ended with a pass from Jackson to spargo inside 50 - he had 2 or 3 free players he could have kicked to)

Which shows how shallow much of the media analysis is, and how unhelpful it is in terms of helping fans understand what is happening.

As an example, montagna diagnosis of what was going wrong was our forward line, and in particular our talls, was not functioning. But that was a symptom, not a cause.

At least partly based on that analysis, he suggested there is a chance we could miss the 8. I know he probably said that to create clicks, but I mean c'mon - if you are a fan thinking the wheels have fallen off after 3 losses and trust his judgement you are perhaps going to believe his nonsense. 

Take our all team gut running away and our 'method' simply does not work.

As many posters noted, we often seemed so stagnant and moved the ball so slowly in our 3 losses. I have no doubt that was both a direct function of the impact of loading (ie tired) and also a mitigation strategy (ie conserve energy and try to stay in games by taking the speed out of it, and try and limit getting exposed on the spread and/or with fast ball movement the way all 3 opposition teams ultimately did).

Two other variables to consider in terms of the impact of loading are age profile of the list and athlete types.

The performance of younger players  like Jackson will likely be impacted more by heavy training blocks than seasoned players like gawn. Jackson struggled big time last year in this phase, and again this year. Gawn, not so much.

As -coach- noted, there are power players like trac and runners like nibbler and langdon. Each type will have different programs and will be impacted differently by the loading they do.

Anyone watching could see trac lacked his usual power and drive away from the contest in our three losses. Equally, they could see how much more dynamic, energised and powerful he was on Thursday. Same is true of viney, harmes, oliver and sparrow

We allow opposition teams to bring an extra, sometimes two, to stoppages. We rarely match that extra (i don't think we have done so once this season), instead relying on our inside bulls to at least halve the contest or if we lose it, put pressure on the clearing disposal. Doing so means we can play our extra as a loose down back.

Again, this is a key part of or method as when on we intercept down back and slingshot forward.

The method breaks down if Trac, Oliver, viney, harmes and Sparrow are down on power and strength. We lose more clearances, but perhaps more significantly we can't put our normal pressure on and opposition teams get out the front of stoppages and/or cleaner, unpressured entries inside 50 as a result. 

Conversely, when fatigued, when we do win a clearance we lack our normal drive and power from the contest, meaning our clearing kicks and handballs are often under pressure, which causes the sort of turnovers and high number of opposition intercept marks we saw in the three losses.

Again, if we look at the stats as symptoms not cause, we can see the impact in the numbers. We are the best team in the AFL for scores off turnovers - it is a critical element of our method. 

In our three losses our scores from turnovers fell off a cliff. On Thursday night we scored 77 points from turnovers. 

I thought it was a real insight into Goody's coaching philosophy that he not once looked to match the opposition's extra at stoppages in our three losses.

Edited June 26, 2022 by binman

[binman 42,932]

Quote not edit

Edited June 26, 2022 by binman