BB made a difference

[Fat Tony 5,270]

25 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

Fair point re: the behinds.

Yes, it's only one game so it's too early to draw conclusions, but analysing each goal the way you have to conclude Brown had no impact in any of them is shallow.

It's very easy to say we won because of our defence and a few players starring but we all know our defence isn't enough each week or we'd be 16-0. This week we looked better in our forward half than we did last week and whilst Brown clearly is not the one and only reason we looked better, it's equally too simplistic and shallow to conclude that because he wasn't in the video grabs you've watched that he had no positive impact.

But only time can tell if he's going to make a long-term difference.

I agree with most of that. It is too early to see if Brown makes us better. We need either Brown, Weideman and/or Jackson to take a few high marks and kick straight for the forward line to really take a quantum leap. Brown and Weideman are not great pressure or ground ball players, so they MUST do this to justify selection.

My analysis was designed to refute the consensus view that Brown was a key reason we won. Last night Brown was a target and played his role, but he had a minor contribution and virtually nil scoreboard contribution. Posters seem to see what they want to see and are drawing links that are not there IMO. 

[Tricky 341]

3 minutes ago, hardtack said:

No one thinks that having Brown in the forward line has led to the mids kicking into the forwards with more confidence?  The difference between this week and last week against GWS was chalk and cheese.

Absolutely right.

Quote

The 28-year-old failed to hit the scoreboard but provided a valuable hit-up target across half-forward with five of his 10 disposals coming in the second term as Melbourne went on a barnstorming run. The Demons targeted Tom McDonald nine times inside forward 50, ahead of Brown (eight), Max Gawn (three) and Luke Jackson (two). 

Above observation is from  https://www.melbournefc.com.au/news/974497/round-17-report-demons-snap-up-win-in-sa

BB clearly adds another dimension to forward line. 

[Tricky 341]

3 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

My analysis was designed to refute the consensus view that Brown was a key reason we won. 

I don't know where anyone said that FT. He did undoubtedly change the dynamics however. 

[Jaded No More 68,974]

53 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Yes Brown had 3 score involvements but they were all behinds.

I am not sure if rushed scores are included as Score Involvements, but I am guessing they are and that one SI was when he kicked off the ground early in the game and it was rushed and another SI when his snap from the pocket was also rushed.

As I said earlier, Brown was OK but not good. The key to the win was our amazing defence and Petracca, Kossie and TMac starring. IMO there is no clear evidence that we would not have won just as easily had we gone in unchanged.

I also reckon TMac was pretty good last week but for his goal kicking. Perhaps the extra rest helped last night? Or maybe he just fluffed his chances against GWS? There is no way of knowing with such a small sample size.

I agree with you that our midfield and defensive pressure is why we won last night. However, you need to ask yourself how come Tmac was able to actually take marks inside 50 on the lead? Whereas the last few weeks he was playing high on the wing as the link up and we had 0 targets inside 50. You also need to ask yourself how easily would Port have been able to double team Tmac and Fritsch if Brown wasn't there, and Aliir Aliir would have had a field day being able to peel off. 

Also you totally underestimate in the contests where Brown is. In so many contests he was in the back of the pack, pulling a defender away. He made sure that his opponent could not run and impact the pack, because he stayed back, which made his defender accountable for him. 

Brown is not why we will win a flag. Our backline and midfield is. However, having another tall up forward who commands respect from the opposition only makes us that much harder to beat.

This is why I think Brown should play ahead of Weideman, because Brown is a massive body and he demands a good tall. He is able to take away the best defender each week. Weideman just is not there yet. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Jaded

[Foopy on the telly 529]

I don’t know if this has been brought up but I wouldn’t be surprised if the club played just Brown and Tmac as key talls for the rest of the season.
 

They could / will probably keep Weideman in the 2’s for the rest of the year to further his development and finally get some real consistency in how he plays, and then get a complete preseason into him with the view that he can breakout next year and/or in future years, as McDonald and Brown start to age. This could perhaps be the ideal plan in terms of finding a consistent forward structure.

[Demons3031 375]

4 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

He was incredibly stiff not be paid 2 decent marks.

Umpire was absolutely rubbish. 

Brown will only get better. He makes our structure so much better.

Spot on..and not only that he was nudged in the back several times in marking contests as was Tom McDonald.

[Jaded No More 68,974]

I also want to add that forward lines in isolation do not win flags. You can have an average forwardline and win a flag. You can't have an average midfield and win one. But what a good forwardline can do, is significantly lower the impact of good defences and a team's ability to rebound from half back with ease. It's why I think Geelong is perhaps our biggest threat in finals, because their forwardline will really stretch us. 

[Demons3031 375]

1 minute ago, Demons3031 said:

Spot on..and not only that he was nudged in the back several times in marking contests as was Tom McDonald.

As well, he didn't back out of that contest when he kept his eye on the ball and got crunched..despite being hurt he got up  and played on.

[Hellaintabadplacetobe 4,294]

Real happy with his first hit up.

Copped a seriously big hit with his first contest from Clurey and dusted himself off pretty quickly considering the hit.

Got nudged under a few a little too easy but brings the ball to ground so well, no doubt at all he improves the team.

I’d love to get to the stage where he n Weid can play in the same team but I doubt it’ll be this year. He’s a much better option currently.

He’ll get better too. 

[FireInTheBennelly 4,099]

4 minutes ago, Hell Bent said:

Real happy with his first hit up.

Copped a seriously big hit with his first contest from Clurey and dusted himself off pretty quickly considering the hit.

Got nudged under a few a little too easy but brings the ball to ground so well, no doubt at all he improves the team.

I’d love to get to the stage where he n Weid can play in the same team but I doubt it’ll be this year. He’s a much better option currently.

He’ll get better too. 

How that wasn't paid as a push in the back is beyond me. 

[dazzledavey36 55,360]

Look at the Luke Jackson goal.

There was four Port Adelaide opponents that were immediately drawn straight away to Brown to try and impact his contest. As Brown draws these four defenders one which included Jackson opponent, this left Jackson to take a free jump at the ball and take a uncontested mark and set shot goal.

This is the kind of stuff that no one will pick up except the coaches come review.

Having Brown down there makes McDonald,  Jackson and Fritsch job a whole lot easier.

[Fat Tony 5,270]

7 minutes ago, Jaded said:

I agree with you that our midfield and defensive pressure is why we won last night. However, you need to ask yourself how come Tmac was able to actually take marks inside 50 on the lead? Whereas the last few weeks he was playing high on the wing as the link up and we had 0 targets inside 50. You also need to ask yourself how easily would Port have been able to double team Tmac and Fritsch if Brown wasn't there, and Aliir Aliir would have had a field day being able to peel off. 

Also you totally underestimate in the contests where Brown is. In so many contests he was in the back of the pack, pulling a defender away. He made sure that his opponent could not run and impact the pack, because he stayed back, which made his defender accountable for him. 

Brown is not why we will win a flag. Our backline and midfield is. However, having another tall up forward who commands respect from the opposition only makes us that much harder to beat.

This is why I think Brown should play ahead of Weideman, because Brown is a massive body and he demands a good tall. He is able to take away the best defender each week. Weideman just is not there yet. 

I don't think I have underestimated what he brought. I said Brown was OK despite not kicking any goals and having very minimal impact to our scoring. (If you look at our goals, you will see he was rarely in the play when we scored.)

I want Brown to make us better and we played exceptionally well with him in the side last night. However, we also played brilliantly against Richmond (without either Brown or Weideman), WBD (with Weideman being a minor contributor) and Brisbane (with Weideman being a minor contributor).

[picket fence 17,522]

1 hour ago, 1964_2 said:

Watch the replay mate - you have missed the value Brown provided to the structure last night - a self-less game, that benefited just about all our other forwards. 

We have found our key fwd for finals. 
 

Definately agree 

[John Crow Batty 8,879]

When Brown had touches, presence or impacted the play most of it was positive although adding little to real time scoring. However this added to perceived pressure on the Port defenders structure and forcing them to lock down on him harder thus allowing relief for the other forwards.

Edited July 9, 2021 by John Crow Batty

[Demon17 5,203]

5 hours ago, Arrow said:

Two things for me:

- he was much better when the ball hit the ground then I gave him credit for. He isn’t Luke Jackson but he isn’t hopeless. Much better than anything Weid has showed this year once the ball hits the deck

- he was fantastic with palms and touches when he felt he couldn’t mark the ball. I’m going to say at least 5 times when out of position he did either punch or deflect the ball to the crumbers to a dangerous spot. 
 

he did get out marked a few times but a number of times our mids simply put it on his head and he was nudged under it. If you’ve ever watched BBB his strength is running and jumping at the ball, not sitting under the high one. I thought he was much much better then his stats and so glad to see he made us a better side 

4 Tackles, score involvements and enabled small forwards opportunities.

Plus Tmac has someone near goal to target from up the ground.

Last night is pretty close now to best 22 and finals lineup.

[loges 6,767]

2 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

Melbourne Goals vs Port

Jackson from a set shot after a high mark. Brown was in the pack but it was kicked on his head and Jackson had the sit. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

TMac on the run from a Jackson handball. Brown had no impact.

Spargo wins a high free and kicks a snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca out the back of the Port press. Port spoiled into the centre of the ground and we got a counterattack goal. Brown had no impact.

Kossie long ping. Brown was looking for a handball receive from Fritsch, who fumbled and recovered to give the handball to Pickett, who kicked a ripper. Brown had no impact.

Petracca’s snap. Kick long to Brown, who runs under a long ball but draws a contest. Picket gets a touch on the marking contest which spills over the back. Petracca kicks a fantastic snap under pressure. Brown drew his defender and was loosely involved in this one but really this was due to Petracca’s brilliance.

Fritsch’s dribbling snap. The ball got out the back of Port’s press after TMac won a beautiful contest and kicked long to Fritsch, who took a juggling mark and snapped on his right foot. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Pickett one hand mark and 50m. Oliver wins a clearance at half back and does a one-two with Langdon and kicks long to half forward. TMac and Kossie in the contest and Pickett takes a juggling mark and gets pummelled and wins 50m to the goal square. Brown had no impact.

TMac from a mark and set shot after a clean centre clearance. Brown had no impact.

TMac snap after a deliberate out of bounds free, he has his kick smothered and gets a handball back and kicks a curling snap. Brown had no impact.

Petracca joe the goose. Long kick to Jackson at full forward. Roved by Jordon and Petracca gets rewarded for tremendous gut running. Brown had no impact. (Not sure Brown was even on the ground.)

Kossie 50m bomb. Long kick down the line from the wing.  Brown was in the area but could not get to the contest. Ball is dropped by Port defenders around Fritsch. Ball spills to Pickett who kicks a ripper. Brown had no impact.

Best no impact game I've ever seen

[Demon17 5,203]

50 minutes ago, nacnud said:

I don’t know if this has been brought up but I wouldn’t be surprised if the club played just Brown and Tmac as key talls for the rest of the season.
 

They could / will probably keep Weideman in the 2’s for the rest of the year to further his development and finally get some real consistency in how he plays, and then get a complete preseason into him with the view that he can breakout next year and/or in future years, as McDonald and Brown start to age. This could perhaps be the ideal plan in terms of finding a consistent forward structure.

Last proved to me that they can both compliment each other and stay out of the way fro each other.

Tall forwards now the solution - see cats for another  example.

[picket fence 17,522]

4 minutes ago, Demon17 said:

4 Tackles, score involvements and enabled small forwards opportunities.

Plus Tmac has someone near goal to target from up the ground.

Last night is pretty close now to best 22 and finals lineup.

About the only one I would seriously consider would be Vanders. He could replace either ANB or Harmes but I think both are playing very consistently!

Edited July 9, 2021 by picket fence

[DeeSpencer 26,082]

He ran under a few early. He simply can’t be doing that too often.

But if he commits to a redefined role that mixes lead up forward, contest maker and even a bit of ground ball footy he’ll stay in.

Mason Cox was a genuine weapon for the Pies when he used to tap the ball from marking contests. The worst thing that ever happened to him was he played a blinder in a prelim and thought he was good.

Obviously Brown’s good enough to mark it a fair bit but if he realises that he doesn’t have a lot of power in the legs or mobility and can sometimes be content to tap or spoil the ball he’ll be more valuable to the team. 

[BDA 22,890]

BB looks lean and fit. Copped a hefty hit early but shrugged it off. He may only have had 10 touches but I don’t remember him wasting any possessions. Ground level game much better than he gets credit for. Marked the ball when delivered in front of him. Brought the ball to ground on occasion

Got nudged under a few but delivery wasn’t ideal. If we can hit him up leading out from the square we’ll really be in business.

Now that his body is right I expect him to grow into the role and cement his spot. I’ve no axe to grind with the Weid and hope one day he can fulfil his potential, but for mine BB stays in the team for the rest of the year

[Jaded No More 68,974]

Brown's kick to a leading Tmac was perfection. It was a tall forward kicking the ball to a tall forward the way a tall forward would want the ball kicked to them! His ball use was spot on, did not waste a disposal and his follow up work was pretty good. 

He is never going to be Usain Bolt. But he doesn't need to be. He laid more tackles last night than Fritsch has in a month of games. 

[defuture15 900]

5 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

I don't think I have underestimated what he brought. I said Brown was OK despite not kicking any goals and having very minimal impact to our scoring. (If you look at our goals, you will see he was rarely in the play when we scored.)

I want Brown to make us better and we played exceptionally well with him in the side last night. However, we also played brilliantly against Richmond (without either Brown or Weideman), WBD (with Weideman being a minor contributor) and Brisbane (with Weideman being a minor contributor).

I think a better comparison for BB's potential influence in the forward line would

be looking back at the Hawks game. There was a good synergy between BB and TMAC and 

Maxy dominated the air on the wing and back. We kicked goals but the pressure wasn't there for the first 3 quarters. I would be hoping for that to be replicated in the future.

[dee-tox 4,835]

I liked his game. Obviously he provides another target. Takes one of the best key defensive players. Gives our smalls a bit more of a predictability in where to rove. He cracked in hard and did a couple of nice things especially his pass to Spargo and his snap that was touched on the line.

I prefer this to sitting the ball on Fritta's head.

As long as the balance is OK with Jackson, Gawn, TMAc and Brown, I think we give a good block of games to prove himself.

 

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,408]

6 hours ago, Hell Bent said:

Real happy with his first hit up.

Copped a seriously big hit with his first contest from Clurey and dusted himself off pretty quickly considering the hit.

Got nudged under a few a little too easy but brings the ball to ground so well, no doubt at all he improves the team.

I’d love to get to the stage where he n Weid can play in the same team but I doubt it’ll be this year. He’s a much better option currently.

He’ll get better too. 

I think Weid will be gone at seasons end. There’s not enough talent now for 18 clubs, I think there will be a couple of clubs willing to offer him regular game time.

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,408]

18 minutes ago, defuture15 said:

I think a better comparison for BB's potential influence in the forward line would

be looking back at the Hawks game. There was a good synergy between BB and TMAC and 

Maxy dominated the air on the wing and back. We kicked goals but the pressure wasn't there for the first 3 quarters. I would be hoping for that to be replicated in the future.

Are you thinking off another game? Ben Brown didn’t play against the Hawks, he played against North, Sydney and Carlton.