Why Can't Sam Complete his Marks?

[Lord Nev 13,512]

9 minutes ago, Jjrogan said:

Yes, you can cherry pick.  You're comparing this years three game average of an established player to the first five season of another. I prefer to keep it like for like myself (3.5 v 4.9 at the same stage of career).   Whatever the case, the undeniable fact is he averages less than kennedy, mckay, hawkins, lynch etc etc. 

im not knocking him, but its a very valid question of how to rectify.

Ok, sure, at the same stages of their career, the current Coleman winner averaged 1.4 marks per game more than a bloke who plays for a team with historically horrendous delivery who is getting smashed by his own supporters in such a way where some are saying his heart isn't in it and he should look for another job...

It's all a bit of an over reaction don't you think?

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

An old school fav amongst some of the best forwards to ever play including Derm.

Tomahawk is always dabbing this (or similar) on his guernsey pre-match & quarter time breaks.  Can't quite recall if i've seen Reiwoldt / others use it but i recall one or two others dabbing it from their guernsey after a goal etc out of the present day forwards.  T-Mac as well?  Obviously more to marking than just this but is the Weid taking advantage of every possible avenue to improve i wonder?

Edited June 1, 2021 by Rusty Nails

[Chook 15,013]

20 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

An old school fav amongst some of the best forwards to ever play including Derm.

Tomahawk is always dabbing this (or similar) on his guernsey pre-match & quarter time breaks.  Can't quite recall if i've seen Reiwoldt / others use it but i recall one or two others dabbing it from their guernsey after a goal etc out of the present day forwards.  T-Mac as well?  Obviously more to marking than just this but is the Weid taking advantage of every possible avenue to improve i wonder?

Should be outlawed imo, but until it is, slather the man head to toe in it for all I care.

[bobby1554 1,244]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Wasn't your knock on him (based on 0 actual evidence) that he wasn't working hard enough? In fact, you said: "Strikes me as the sort of player who will go to a second club, fail to fire a shot there, and give it away. I don’t think his heart is in it."

The stats don't back up your, frankly immature and embarrassing, assertion.

Key forwards don't typically average huge disposal numbers.Tom Hawkins won the Coleman in 2020 averaging 12 disposals a game, I guess his 'heart isn't in it' either hey?

Weid also averaged 3 marks and 1.5 goals in 2020. Not terrible given his main forward partner was horribly out of form and we continued our poor delivery inside 50.

Currently averaging 4 marks and a goal this year so far. Fair to say he can improve, but your comments are a clear example of the over the top rhetoric that the lazy wheel out because they can't be bothered actually putting some thought in.

Keep hoping mate. It ain’t gonna happen. And if you are seriously comparing him with Tom Hawkins, you sir, are a fool. Just for the record, the stats DO back up my immature and embarrassing assertion. He hasn’t fired a shot, other than a final in 2018. Averaging a goal, whoopee do!

[Pates 9,660]

There were quite a few that he got his hand on that I can understand him not pulling them down, pack marking is something sometimes it just happens to stick but largely they go to ground. There were a few of one v one, two v two situations, that he got a big enough piece of that I was disappointed he didn’t pull down. I don’t expect him to take all of them but even just one out of three in those situations would be good. 

I don’t like potting him, but he needs to start clunking again. We can’t have a player that is largely ineffectual for large parts of the game, has a flurry of 5 minutes, but then after that is just “bringing the ball to ground”. 

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

I noticed in some marking contests and one in particular when he was on his own and the ball went right through his hands on a wet day, that he actually wasnt putting his thumbs together and they were too far apart. If you watch good cricketers catch balls that go at very fast speed, their thumbs are very close or crossed together.

Maybe the Weid needs to get 1000 cricket balls hit to him so he can practice catching them. The same line of thinking had Bradman practice hitting a golfball with a cricket stump day after day hundreds and hundreds of times....kinda gets the eye brain thing happening.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Wadda We Sing

[Fork 'em 6,983]

Weid .... Brown.
Makes no difference to me.
But I'm hoping the Weid can kick 2-3 more goals a game over the next couple weeks.
If he does get his confidence up and kicks more ..... Bonus.
He doesn't need to be a superstar.
Like the rest of the team he just needs to play his role.
If he can't do it ..... In with Brown. 
And then I'll hope Brown can do what he needs to do to keep his spot.

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,775]

Does he wear glasses? Perhaps needs to wear contact lenses playing? (serious question)

That dropped uncontested mark in goal square against dogs looked like he didn't see it properly.

[Deemania since 56 6,636]

6 hours ago, bobby1554 said:

Keep hoping mate. It ain’t gonna happen. And if you are seriously comparing him with Tom Hawkins, you sir, are a fool. Just for the record, the stats DO back up my immature and embarrassing assertion. He hasn’t fired a shot, other than a final in 2018. Averaging a goal, whoopee do!

...and to think we gave up on King. Who is next? Petty? 

[Deemania since 56 6,636]

3 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Like the rest of the team he just needs to play his role.

That would suffice - otherwise we might think (as is the current thinking) that we are a man down per match due to repeated selection.

[Nasher 33,616]

1 hour ago, Deemania since 56 said:

...and to think we gave up on King. Who is next? Petty? 

King?

[binman 42,951]

10 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

 

Weid also averaged 3 marks and 1.5 goals in 2020. Not terrible given his main forward partner was horribly out of form and we continued our poor delivery inside 50.

Yes, well part of the problem with the vale of this number is the other stat you put up about the distance he covered in 2020.

I suspect most of his marks in 2020 were taken well up the ground and mist were uncontested. 

The threevreal stats you want to know for a key forward is marks inside 50  contested marks total AND contested marks inside 50.

How did Sam fare in 2020 on those metrics?

[Lord Nev 13,512]

22 minutes ago, binman said:

Yes, well part of the problem with the vale of this number is the other stat you put up about the distance he covered in 2020.

I suspect most of his marks in 2020 were taken well up the ground and mist were uncontested. 

The threevreal stats you want to know for a key forward is marks inside 50  contested marks total AND contested marks inside 50.

How did Sam fare in 2020 on those metrics?

Averaged 1.3 contested marks, 1.9 marks inside 50.

So basically, half is marks were contested, and the majority were inside 50.

[binman 42,951]

2 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Averaged 1.3 contested marks, 1.9 marks inside 50.

So basically, half is marks were contested, and the majority were inside 50.

Ta. They're pretty good numbers.

In terms of the question of the thread I'm actually of the view that it is in large mental. My gut feeling is he puts too much pressure on himself. And gets down on himself too quickly and too often , so gets tight.

In 2020 tmac was out of the side and Jackson was a baby (still is). So Sam's spot was locked in. Played with some freedom.

This season he probably feels he is in competition and has to take every chance. 

He is a good cricketer. Batting is all about getting into the flow state. Freeing the mind and focusion on each ball, and only on rhe ball. He should try and bring that accross to footy.

But marking isn't my concern really. My issue with Sam is i don't think he plays with enough intensity. That applies to his attack on players with the ball and one on one. Too many half efforts. That is totally fixable.

[Chook 15,013]

I rewatched the game last night and Sam was much better than I remembered. I think his key issues are lack of intensity and putting too much pressure on himself to perform. The two seem paradoxical, but they’re not. When he attacks everything and everyone with more ferocity he would stop thinking about himself and how well he “has to” perform. Once he does that, he’ll perform. 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Chook

[Chook 15,013]

I rewatched the game last night and Sam was much better than I remembered. I think his key issues are lack of intensity and putting too much pressure on himself to perform. The two seem paradoxical, but they’re not. When he attacks everything and everyone with more ferocity he will stop thinking about himself and how well he “has to” perform. Once he does that, he’ll perform. 

[Webber 10,468]

10 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

An old school fav amongst some of the best forwards to ever play including Derm.

Tomahawk is always dabbing this (or similar) on his guernsey pre-match & quarter time breaks.  Can't quite recall if i've seen Reiwoldt / others use it but i recall one or two others dabbing it from their guernsey after a goal etc out of the present day forwards.  T-Mac as well?  Obviously more to marking than just this but is the Weid taking advantage of every possible avenue to improve i wonder?

Good stuff, Grippo. I used to use it, and on slippery days it was a huge help in marking. Waterlogged days and perfectly dry days not so much. Sam’s issue is confidence. Timing and belief are everything, both fly out the window when you’ve had some time out, and are finding the rhythm of the team. He’ll get it back, and it will grow with each mark. The bigger issue is, as some have said, his intent without the ball. Needs to get more urgency in wanting to get the ball back. 

[Red and Blue realist 2,051]

Coming back into the side I'm sure most would have just asked that he competes hard in the air, and at a minimum brings the ball to ground so our pressure forwards can go to work. We all would love him to come in and clunk huge grabs and kick 6 a week of course, but realistically he's doing what he's needed for. If you watch him attack the ball in the first contest against the dogs, he didn't mark it, but he split the pack open which allowed our ground ball guys to do what they do, the ball spits out the back and Harmes goals in 20 seconds. If you also watch him closely (just watch the goals highlights) he's indirectly involved in around 4 or 5 of our goals, again hitting packs, but also pressuring, blocking and also he did well corralling the macrae kick that resulted in one of Fritta's goals - he also stood up for Fritta after he Cordy was going after him when he gave away a free kick so he could kick his 2nd. Is he a superstar at the moment, no, is he playing his role in the team, that's a big yes. I thought his final against the cats might have been his Maxy style break out game, but I think if he keeps doing everything he is now then that will come. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 hour ago, binman said:

Ta. They're pretty good numbers.

In terms of the question of the thread I'm actually of the view that it is in large mental. My gut feeling is he puts too much pressure on himself. And gets down on himself too quickly and too often , so gets tight.

In 2020 tmac was out of the side and Jackson was a baby (still is). So Sam's spot was locked in. Played with some freedom.

This season he probably feels he is in competition and has to take every chance. 

He is a good cricketer. Batting is all about getting into the flow state. Freeing the mind and focusion on each ball, and only on rhe ball. He should try and bring that accross to footy.

But marking isn't my concern really. My issue with Sam is i don't think he plays with enough intensity. That applies to his attack on players with the ball and one on one. Too many half efforts. That is totally fixable.

Yeah, I definitely think the overthinking and consistency of confidence discussion has merit.

I believe he just needs to find a way to get more reward for effort, easier opportunities, especially at the start of games until he feels it more consistently. He's clearing putting in the effort to get around the ground, but when you're overthinking it prevents you from having that singular focus which would manifest itself externally as intensity.

A bit like some forwards with goal kicking, if he gets some more open/easy opportunities early I think it will impact positively on his more contested situations. Once that has happened a few games in a row it becomes the norm rather than a necessity.

[Harrisonrules 273]

Marking is a talent. It's in the hands. The Weid has modest talent and is unlikely to improve to any significant level. Naughton showed how much better he is. If he gets the hands on it, it sticks even under pressure. Those who talk about grabbing the second grab, know little about being a good mark. Good marks don't needed a second grab. There are a range of players of all sizes in our team who are great competative marks, May Lever Salem, Rivers, possibly Petty, Brayshaw, Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Fritzsche, Gawn Tom Mac. They will mark in a competative situation, against comparatively similar size. I would not trust the following to consistently win a marking competition, Hibberd, Hunt, Spargo, Neil Bullen.  Some players are ok  Langdon, Harmes. Not sure about Jordon yet. 

Talented marks display it from early days eg Rivers. Weid has been in the system some 7 years and he still is little more than modest. Yes experience and confidence  will help, but he'll never be great. It's a talent some have and some don't (Unfortunately Jack Watts did't have it) just like kicking for goal. Jack Watts did have the kicking talent, Max Gawn doesn't but Tom Mac does. The Weid has a beautiful kicking style, but beyond 30 metres he is merely a 50 50 chance. He's got an awful lot of work to do to meet our hopes.

[Deemania since 56 6,636]

3 hours ago, Nasher said:

King?

Max King, StKilda full forward, ex Demon down at Casey - not selected for the big time. Bit of a gun, better than the Weed.

 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Deemania since 56

[Deemania since 56 6,636]

1 hour ago, Webber said:

Good stuff, Grippo. I used to use it, and on slippery days it was a huge help in marking. Waterlogged days and perfectly dry days not so much. Sam’s issue is confidence. Timing and belief are everything, both fly out the window when you’ve had some time out, and are finding the rhythm of the team. He’ll get it back, and it will grow with each mark. The bigger issue is, as some have said, his intent without the ball. Needs to get more urgency in wanting to get the ball back. 

Save yourself a fortune, if still playing and wish to improve the sticky hands situation. Buy some Kiwi Dubbin, use that and carry a rag in your socks. 

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,754]

13 hours ago, faultydet said:

I've noticed that he is quite often capable of taking a 1v1 mark while standing next to his opponent, but absolutely hopeless in a pack marking contest where he needs to run at the ball. Always seems to run under the ball.

Has the club assessed his depth of vision? Does he have a problem figuring out where the ball will land when he is running towards it? Maybe he needs a trigonometry tutor?

 

Or maybe he is just not cut out to be a senior AFL footballer?

 

 

What's Ken Emselle doing these days? Taught me maths in about year 10 which would have been in the early 1970s. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

20 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Max King, StKilda full forward, ex Demon down at Casey - not selected for the big time. Bit of a gun, better than the Weed.

Ummmmmm......

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,754]

14 hours ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Always something cynical. Oh well, I liked Greg Parke despite his kicking being erratic. He gave us terrific possessions and his handball was excellent across distances to a teammate. 

If you think I've dissed Parke too much about his kicking let me add that I still believe he was the best contested mark I've ever seen in red and blue. I remember a game at Moorabbin where it seemed like he took 16 marks on a muddy ground and almost all of them contested. (This is back in the days when statistics on "contested marks" probably weren't collected.)  I also appreciate that memory plays tricks - so his kicking might be better than I remember.