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Tackling Down

Demonland
in Melbourne Demons

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Yep. Less stoppages means less contested situations. Contest is our strength and the new rules minimize situations we excel at. 
We’ll likely struggle against highly skilled and well drilled possession based teams like West Coast.

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    Another thing of note, though I don’t have stats, is reduction of boundary throw ins. The Pies vs Dogs match had one boundary thrown in I saw. One.

    For us, less stoppages, less contest, and less opportunity to capitalize on the most dominant tap ruckman in the league.

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    17 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

    Yep. Less stoppages means less contested situations. Contest is our strength and the new rules minimize situations we excel at. 
    We’ll likely struggle against highly skilled and well drilled possession based teams like West Coast.

    Interestingly we did quite poorly at clearance this weekend. Not sure if this is a product of the rule changes or a new mantra fro Yze/Goodwin. Will be interesting to watch.

    With less stoppages in the game have we gone away from a purely contested side?

    I agree with the skills comment though. We are not skillful enough team to be a real threat this year. But I like our core group of youngesters I think there is definite potential along with development of our senior core.

    Edited by Unleash Hell

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    16 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

    For us, less stoppages, less contest, and less opportunity to capitalize on the most dominant tap ruckman in the league.

    Did we finally draft Nic Nat?

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    18 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

    Another thing of note, though I don’t have stats, is reduction of boundary throw ins. The Pies vs Dogs match had one boundary thrown in I saw. One.

    For us, less stoppages, less contest, and less opportunity to capitalize on the most dominant tap ruckman in the league.

    I think the big ruckman is dead under the new rules. I heard gawn basically comment the game is too fast.

    Tigs v blues I didn't see the ruckman in the 2nd half of the game.

    Will be interesting again to see how the afl adjust to their rules.

    They have basically killed a position or type of player.

    I said it before Rd 1 and I'll say it again. Jackson will be our number 1 ruck by seasons end. And that's no offence meant to big Max.

    Edited by Unleash Hell

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    I called to trade Max 2 years ago and was condemned. Rucks aren’t important and nor is first clearance. Just ask Richmond. He needs to adjust his game and be able to play deep forward and deep back. Let Jackson run around with the ball as another mid

    Edited by Roost it far

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    12 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

    I think the big ruckman is dead under the new rules. I heard gawn basically comment the game is too fast.

    Tigs v blues I didn't see the ruckman in the 2nd half of the game.

    Will be interesting again to see how the afl adjust to their rules.

    They have basically killed a position or type of player.

    I said it before Rd 1 and I'll say it again. Jackson will be our number 1 ruck by seasons end. And that's no offence meant to big Max.

    I have also held this view through preseason. If he hasn't been spending enormous amounts of time over pre-season practicing his goalkicking, he might be out of a job by years end.

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    We've never really been a stoppage based side under Goodwin anyway. 

    The first thing he did taking over Roos was to shift to a zone defensive system and to encourage ball movement.

    We probably could've won more games over Goodwins time if we stuck to just banging it down the line and resetting. We did that a couple of times last year and I think it was Montagna or Dal Santo who questioned why we don't make that a bigger part of our plan.

    Goody's always encouraged run and spread and there were patches in 16-18 and again last year where we've done it well. 

    The Richmond model is right. Always make sure the 22 you pick are strong at the contest and don't draft players who can't develop that side of the game, but then make sure they can seriously run and get enough of the right skills in the right positions. 

    We seem to be a bit short on skill and run but we have to keep trying to play in an aggressive manner and taking the game on.

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    6 minutes ago, Roost it far said:

    I called to trade Max 2 years ago and was condemned. Rucks aren’t important and nor is first clearance. Just ask Richmond 

    Nankervis won them a prelim last year. You don't need a superstar but good rucks standing up in finals are a pre-requisite for finals success. Just ask Geelong!

    Max has always been too important to trade even if he's overqualified for the role. I hope what they've done by extending his contract (for far longer than I would've liked) is manage to decrease his salary and spread it out over many years. 

    If he's on a million a year like Grundy that's a waste. If he's soon to be on something like 600k next year like maybe Lycette or Nankervis could be on that's fine by me. 

    The expectations probably need to change for Gawn. I'd like him to sort out the connection with his mids but after that if he beats his opponent and does all the team things with some tackles, blocks, defensive marks etc he doesn't have to dominate games.

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    1 minute ago, DeeSpencer said:

    Nankervis won them a prelim last year. You don't need a superstar but good rucks standing up in finals are a pre-requisite for finals success. Just ask Geelong!

    Max has always been too important to trade even if he's overqualified for the role. I hope what they've done by extending his contract (for far longer than I would've liked) is manage to decrease his salary and spread it out over many years. 

    If he's on a million a year like Grundy that's a waste. If he's soon to be on something like 600k next year like maybe Lycette or Nankervis could be on that's fine by me. 

    The expectations probably need to change for Gawn. I'd like him to sort out the connection with his mids but after that if he beats his opponent and does all the team things with some tackles, blocks, defensive marks etc he doesn't have to dominate games.

    I’d take a class outside mid and a high pick any day 

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    I overall agree but we were definitely a territorial based side imo.

    The effectiveness of the zoning and counter attack style when we lost territory has been debated ad nauseum.

    Regardsless we are talking afl2021... for mine tackling, stoppages are all down meaning the true big man is dead in the current format of the game.

    Edited by Unleash Hell

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    1 minute ago, Roost it far said:

    I’d take a class outside mid and a high pick any day 

    Which I doubt anyone was giving us in 2018 yet alone now.

    Patty Ryder wasn't as good as Gawn but he was in his prime when he went to Port and that only cost a later first rounder. McEvoy the same when he went to the Hawks.

    In terms of resource allocation we've got 3 reasonably expensive key forwards in McDonald, Brown and Weid. And a bunch of inside mids on decent money too I'm sure (Oliver, Petracca, Viney, Harmes, Gus). That's where your wing and skilled half forward comes from.

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    Centre bounces/throw ups do not favour any ruckman and, as we have seen, clearances don't necessarily follow ruck dominance in the centre.

    Ball ups at stoppages are also becoming irrelevant as the crowding is too great to allow clean clearances.

    Boundary throw ins are different. If, and when, S Hocking directs the boundary umpires (now that there are 4) to throw the ball in quickly with a low, fast throw (instead of the slow, high loopy throws seen on the weekend) before a crowd forms then a dominant, extra tall ruckman serviced by smart on-ballers can prevail and add  value to the team.

    However, the maximum value to be gained from Maxie is for him to take contested marks around the ground either to frustrate the opposition in our defence, to provide a get out from the backline and to hold the ball in our forward line. To this end we must train to allow Maxie full freedom to contest without interference from team mates. One out or even one against two means that Maxie can win the ball.

    It's all in the coaching and game plan.

     

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    Max was important on the weekend - drawing defenders in contests and allowing TMac to mark cleanly.  He also took some good intercept grabs and provides a matchup headache.  

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    1 hour ago, tiers said:

    Centre bounces/throw ups do not favour any ruckman and, as we have seen, clearances don't necessarily follow ruck dominance in the centre.

    Ball ups at stoppages are also becoming irrelevant as the crowding is too great to allow clean clearances.

    Boundary throw ins are different. If, and when, S Hocking directs the boundary umpires (now that there are 4) to throw the ball in quickly with a low, fast throw (instead of the slow, high loopy throws seen on the weekend) before a crowd forms then a dominant, extra tall ruckman serviced by smart on-ballers can prevail and add  value to the team.

    However, the maximum value to be gained from Maxie is for him to take contested marks around the ground either to frustrate the opposition in our defence, to provide a get out from the backline and to hold the ball in our forward line. To this end we must train to allow Maxie full freedom to contest without interference from team mates. One out or even one against two means that Maxie can win the ball.

    It's all in the coaching and game plan.

     

    We’re virtually at the point where last team to touch it is penalised. The boundary throw in is going the way of the dinosaur

     

    I like Max and as long as he’s not in ridiculous money I’m happy enough to keep him. I just don’t think we get all that much from him the way the game is going. He needs to run deep forward and kick goals and run deep back and save them. That’s where I see his benefit 

    Edited by Roost it far

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    Why is there an emphasis on money? Maxie is a champion who either makes a positive contribution or not. The money is irrelevant.

    I believe he makes a positive contribution and, with some more insight and planning from our coaching department, he could be even more valuable to us, not necessarily by picking up hitouts but by playing a role that maximises his strengths (strategic positioning, contested marking) and allows him to avoid being weighed down by roles that others could play adequately.

    Maxie is more than a typical ruckman - he could be a change the role.

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    15 hours ago, tiers said:

    Centre bounces/throw ups do not favour any ruckman and, as we have seen, clearances don't necessarily follow ruck dominance in the centre.

    Ball ups at stoppages are also becoming irrelevant as the crowding is too great to allow clean clearances.

    Boundary throw ins are different. If, and when, S Hocking directs the boundary umpires (now that there are 4) to throw the ball in quickly with a low, fast throw (instead of the slow, high loopy throws seen on the weekend) before a crowd forms then a dominant, extra tall ruckman serviced by smart on-ballers can prevail and add  value to the team.

    However, the maximum value to be gained from Maxie is for him to take contested marks around the ground either to frustrate the opposition in our defence, to provide a get out from the backline and to hold the ball in our forward line. To this end we must train to allow Maxie full freedom to contest without interference from team mates. One out or even one against two means that Maxie can win the ball.

    It's all in the coaching and game plan.

     

    But we have Lever and May doing that in the back line

    Max mainly contested against T MAc in gthe forward half. So we are an on baller down at the contest and we are covered for marking at either end

    Max looked a little lost and really the game has changed to the extent that Max is no longer as crucial to the teams performance

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    Jesus christ I hate Melbourne supporters..

    We've gone from  questioning Clayton Oliver's worth in the team,  to now wanting to trade Max Gawn.

    Who would have thought a win still brings the worse out in some.

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    15 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

    Jesus christ I hate Melbourne supporters..

    We've gone from  questioning Clayton Oliver's worth in the team,  to now wanting to trade Max Gawn.

    Who would have thought a win still brings the worse out in some.

    If we’re ever fortunate enough to win a flag people will complain that the cup isn’t shiny enough. 

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    The positive for us is if we can keep Lever and May healthy and the add Gawn who can push back to intercept is we can hopefully stem the flow when needed rather than using stoppages but as others have said it’s a 1 rnd sample size coming out of a shortened season with shortened games with less rotations. There is the fatigue factor as well which is one to watch but he’s to quantify.

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    17 hours ago, Lord Travis said:

    Another thing of note, though I don’t have stats, is reduction of boundary throw ins. The Pies vs Dogs match had one boundary thrown in I saw. One.

    For us, less stoppages, less contest, and less opportunity to capitalize on the most dominant tap ruckman in the league.

    Currently we're not taking that opportunity often enough. Max's real value to us at the moment is his marking dominance.

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    Max's only real weakness is his kicking. Unfortunately, he loves to kick and needs to handball it more. There's a reason the opposition give him so much room to kick.

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