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Dissecting the List


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55 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

What I like to do is read back at some of the 'experts' talking about sides the year before they won a flag.

2016 Richmond - A lot were saying they need a full rebuild.

2017 West Coast - Terry Wallace said they would finish last.

 

Plough had an absolute mare on that West Coast call, most of what he has to say on list management is usually spot on.

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8 hours ago, AaronDaveyChipsAndGravey said:

Can anyone summarise what Buckenara said? Article is paywalled

RATING THE LIST

A-grade: Gawn

B: Brayshaw, Fritsch, Lever, May, T. McDonald, Melksham, Oliver, Petracca, Salem, Viney, Weideman

C: Baker, Brown, Hannan, Harmes, Hibberd, Hore, Hunt, Jetta, Jones, Kolodjashnij, Langdon, Lockhart, O. McDonald, Neal-Bullen, Preuss, Smith, Tomlinson, Vandenberg

Developing (with A-B grade potential): Jackson, Pickett, Rivers

Developing: Bedford, Bradtke, Chandler, Jordan, Nietschke, Petty, Spargo, Sparrow

WHAT THE RATINGS MEAN:

A-grade: Elite player on any AFL list

B: Top 10-18 player on most lists

C: An 18-30 player on a list

Developing: Aged 21 or under

 

imo

TMac/Melk --> C

May, Petracca --> A

Petty --> Dev (A/B)

pretty hard to argue with the rest

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42 minutes ago, Turner said:

RATING THE LIST

A-grade: Gawn

B: Brayshaw, Fritsch, Lever, May, T. McDonald, Melksham, Oliver, Petracca, Salem, Viney, Weideman

C: Baker, Brown, Hannan, Harmes, Hibberd, Hore, Hunt, Jetta, Jones, Kolodjashnij, Langdon, Lockhart, O. McDonald, Neal-Bullen, Preuss, Smith, Tomlinson, Vandenberg

Developing (with A-B grade potential): Jackson, Pickett, Rivers

Developing: Bedford, Bradtke, Chandler, Jordan, Nietschke, Petty, Spargo, Sparrow

WHAT THE RATINGS MEAN:

A-grade: Elite player on any AFL list

B: Top 10-18 player on most lists

C: An 18-30 player on a list

Developing: Aged 21 or under

 

imo

TMac/Melk --> C

May, Petracca --> A

Petty --> Dev (A/B)

pretty hard to argue with the rest

I think its probably not a great way to rate the lists and as a result its a poor effort:

  • Langdon, Lever, May, Oliver, Petracca are comfortably in the top 9 players on almost every AFL list, which would make them A grade in this rating system. Oliver and Langdon have finished top 5 in his clubs bnf the last 3 years. May is a gun and was his club captain. Petracca just finished =3rd in the Brownlow. Lever hasn't performed as well as hoped, but is recognised as being a player of that quality.
  • Arguments could be made for Brayshaw, Salem and Viney to be in the top 9 of many lists. Probably not enough to meet the A grade on this scale?
  • Hibberd is getting old, but he would still get a game in most teams, therefore the B grade is reasonable.
  • Tomlinson has played 140+ games in the last few years, he is definitely in the 10-18 player list
  • Harmes would get a game for all teams, therefore he is in B grade
  • Preuss is about to be drafted into a club and become their ruckman, and probably play most games, therefore is B grade on that scale.

My biggest issue if probably their choice of scale than anything.

 

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2 minutes ago, deanox said:

I think its probably not a great way to rate the lists and as a result its a poor effort:

  • Langdon, Lever, May, Oliver, Petracca are comfortably in the top 9 players on almost every AFL list, which would make them A grade in this rating system. Oliver and Langdon have finished top 5 in his clubs bnf the last 3 years. May is a gun and was his club captain. Petracca just finished =3rd in the Brownlow. Lever hasn't performed as well as hoped, but is recognised as being a player of that quality.
  • Arguments could be made for Brayshaw, Salem and Viney to be in the top 9 of many lists. Probably not enough to meet the A grade on this scale?
  • Hibberd is getting old, but he would still get a game in most teams, therefore the B grade is reasonable.
  • Tomlinson has played 140+ games in the last few years, he is definitely in the 10-18 player list
  • Harmes would get a game for all teams, therefore he is in B grade
  • Preuss is about to be drafted into a club and become their ruckman, and probably play most games, therefore is B grade on that scale.

My biggest issue if probably their choice of scale than anything.

 

lever and langdon wouldn't even be top 9 players in their position across the competition tbh, same goes for salem and brayshaw so theyre all comfortably B's at best. and langdon has had one like noteworthy season but if he backs it up again i'd scale him up

hibbo is a C coz he could easily be out of the team by round 8 who knows, age can catch up to you at any time definitely a C going into next season as a veteran and consistant performer week in week out without ever starring

tomlinson couldn't get a game for half the season, doesn't have a best position and if ur saying top 10-18 well thats half one teams list, thats not B grade in the competition.

harmes couldn't get a game for us, due to coaching and poor management but still, hard to argue he'd walk into a couple of the other sides in the comp

preuss has 18 games in 6 years in the system, hardly screams B, could easily flop we dont actually know, especially if they sign Sav as well

i agree its a pretty limited scale, but its a good way to break top talent away from the pack pretty simply and we do have a pack thats too full

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Buckenara is spot on. It really is a depressing but accurate assessment. We have been bad for years and a seven year rebuild has changed nothing. Bartlett is delusional about this list. An absolute non negotiable if we are to improve is offload TMac and get B Brown. 

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9 minutes ago, Turner said:

lever and langdon wouldn't even be top 9 players in their position across the competition tbh, same goes for salem and brayshaw so theyre all comfortably B's at best. and langdon has had one like noteworthy season but if he backs it up again i'd scale him up

hibbo is a C coz he could easily be out of the team by round 8 who knows, age can catch up to you at any time definitely a C going into next season as a veteran and consistant performer week in week out without ever starring

tomlinson couldn't get a game for half the season, doesn't have a best position and if ur saying top 10-18 well thats half one teams list, thats not B grade in the competition.

harmes couldn't get a game for us, due to coaching and poor management but still, hard to argue he'd walk into a couple of the other sides in the comp

preuss has 18 games in 6 years in the system, hardly screams B, could easily flop we dont actually know, especially if they sign Sav as well

i agree its a pretty limited scale, but its a good way to break top talent away from the pack pretty simply and we do have a pack thats too full

I'm only going by the rankings they used.

A-grade: Elite player on any AFL list

B: Top 10-18 player on most lists

C: An 18-30 player on a list

Langdon has finished top 5, 3 years running, of course its reasonable to assess him as "probably top 9 on most lists".

 

I'm not arguing that our players are good, i'm saying I think the system is terrible.  

I would have thought that A grader was at best 3-5 per team, and B grade would be top 10. C could see you out to top 18, and D below that. 

 

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33 minutes ago, deanox said:

I think its probably not a great way to rate the lists and as a result its a poor effort:

  • Langdon, Lever, May, Oliver, Petracca are comfortably in the top 9 players on almost every AFL list, which would make them A grade in this rating system. Oliver and Langdon have finished top 5 in his clubs bnf the last 3 years. May is a gun and was his club captain. Petracca just finished =3rd in the Brownlow. Lever hasn't performed as well as hoped, but is recognised as being a player of that quality.
  • Arguments could be made for Brayshaw, Salem and Viney to be in the top 9 of many lists. Probably not enough to meet the A grade on this scale?
  • Hibberd is getting old, but he would still get a game in most teams, therefore the B grade is reasonable.
  • Tomlinson has played 140+ games in the last few years, he is definitely in the 10-18 player list
  • Harmes would get a game for all teams, therefore he is in B grade
  • Preuss is about to be drafted into a club and become their ruckman, and probably play most games, therefore is B grade on that scale.

My biggest issue if probably their choice of scale than anything.

 

You are so far off the mark its not even funny

-lever struggled this year and didn't offer more than frost was offering. C grade at best

-langdon is a b grader-cant kick

-viney is a butcher, would struggle to get a game at Richmond

-brayshaw can only play one position and can't kick, again would be a fringe player at a top side

-hibberd struggled to get a consistent spot in our team this year, c grader

-tomlinson struggled to get a game too-c grader

-harmes couldn't even get a game

-luke jackson and tmac were preferred over press, he has no tank and is a liability once the ball hits ground

 

Sorry but you really need to re analyse the list, we would be winning flags if the list was as good as you're saying 

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A grade (excels week to week): Petracca, May
A- (high quality but showing flaws): Gawn, Oliver
B (does a solid job most weeks) : Salem, Viney, Langdon
B- (has the talent but too inconsistent): Weid, Lever, Brayshaw, Harmes
C+ (mixes talent and flaws): Jackson, Rivers, Pickett
C (has some good and bad but can do a job): Hibberd, Melksham, Sparrow
C- (not regularly up to the job): Spargo, Tomlinson, J. Smith, Vanders, Lockhart, T Mc and plenty of others

Unranked: Hore, Petty and the other kids

I'm judging Max harshly for the end of his season and lack of coordination with his mids. Oliver the same, too many games where he didn't impact to be a true A grader right now.

We're too light on for good solid B graders. In 2018 Hibberd, Melksham, Gus, Harmes, Jetta were all solid or better (T Mc) B graders, now they aren't.

Same goes for C graders, there's a whole lot of the list that can't hold their spot in the side. Tomlinson is the only one who does and that's because our defensive depth is rubbish.

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1 hour ago, Turner said:

RATING THE LIST

A-grade: Gawn

B: Brayshaw, Fritsch, Lever, May, T. McDonald, Melksham, Oliver, Petracca, Salem, Viney, Weideman

C: Baker, Brown, Hannan, Harmes, Hibberd, Hore, Hunt, Jetta, Jones, Kolodjashnij, Langdon, Lockhart, O. McDonald, Neal-Bullen, Preuss, Smith, Tomlinson, Vandenberg

Developing (with A-B grade potential): Jackson, Pickett, Rivers

Developing: Bedford, Bradtke, Chandler, Jordan, Nietschke, Petty, Spargo, Sparrow

WHAT THE RATINGS MEAN:

A-grade: Elite player on any AFL list

B: Top 10-18 player on most lists

C: An 18-30 player on a list

Developing: Aged 21 or under

 

imo

TMac/Melk --> C

May, Petracca --> A

Petty --> Dev (A/B)

pretty hard to argue with the rest

Not sure how Oliver can be anything but A. Would be a walk up start as number 1 mid in pretty much every AFL team bar a couple. It's actually ridiculous how underrated he is in the media and part of me is sceptical that it's because he plays for Melbourne. Put him in an Essendon or a Collingwood jumper and I bet people would be raving about him.

The fact that Petracca and May aren't listed as A-grade also suggests that his opinion is not worth much. 

p.s. Langdon as C?? really?

As deanox has pointed out he has been top 5 in BnF's three years running. Not sure how that puts him in the 18-30 group.

 

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15 minutes ago, Nascent said:

Not sure how Oliver can be anything but A. Would be a walk up start as number 1 mid in pretty much every AFL team bar a couple. It's actually ridiculous how underrated he is in the media and part of me is sceptical that it's because he plays for Melbourne. Put him in an Essendon or a Collingwood jumper and I bet people would be raving about him.

The fact that Petracca and May aren't listed as A-grade also suggests that his opinion is not worth much. 

p.s. Langdon as C?? really?

As deanox has pointed out he has been top 5 in BnF's three years running. Not sure how that puts him in the 18-30 group.

 

It's silly to call Oliver a B grader but there's no doubt he's not seen as the force he once was.

Teams Oliver wouldn't be the number 1 mid for: West Coast (Shuey/Yeo or Kelly), Freo (Fyfe), Port (Boak), Bris (Neale), Coll (Pendles, Adams), Carl (Cripps), Geel (Danger), Melb (Tracc), Rich (Dusty), St Kilda (Steele), WB (Bont)

Teams he would: Ess (McGrath is close though), GWS (Kelly 2 down years), North, Haw, GC (until Rowell), Adel, Syd

Oliver has to take a step back up next year to show his ball use can be far more damaging. Or at least that he's playing the right way and doing his best to maximise his ball winning. A lot of his disposals were harming the side and Bucky might've caught wind of that (or might just be an [censored]).

Langdon gets to a B grade for super consistent high effort footy but he's a C grade talent doing his absolute best. Top 5 BnF's are coming in sides that can't make finals. 

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3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

It's silly to call Oliver a B grader but there's no doubt he's not seen as the force he once was.

Teams Oliver wouldn't be the number 1 mid for: West Coast (Shuey/Yeo or Kelly), Freo (Fyfe), Port (Boak), Bris (Neale), Coll (Pendles, Adams), Carl (Cripps), Geel (Danger), Melb (Tracc), Rich (Dusty), St Kilda (Steele), WB (Bont)

Teams he would: Ess (McGrath is close though), GWS (Kelly 2 down years), North, Haw, GC (until Rowell), Adel, Syd

Oliver has to take a step back up next year to show his ball use can be far more damaging. Or at least that he's playing the right way and doing his best to maximise his ball winning. A lot of his disposals were harming the side and Bucky might've caught wind of that (or might just be an [censored]).

Langdon gets to a B grade for super consistent high effort footy but he's a C grade talent doing his absolute best. Top 5 BnF's are coming in sides that can't make finals. 

I agree that his disposal has let him down at times this year, but his in close contested work and handball skills over the last 3-4 years has largely gone unnoticed/under-appreciated. 

On his 2020 statistics - a step back in your words - he is ranked #1 in contested possession #1 in clearances and #9 in total disposal across the entire competition.

From your list I would say that Neale, Boak, Bont and Dusty are the only ones he wouldn't displace as number 1 mid. I'd argue that he is at least on par with Cripps if not ahead based on this year.

Dangerfield and Fyfe spend more time split between the forward 50 to be counted as genuine midfielders. Pendles has slowed with age and is not as damaging as he used to be, and I'd take Oliver easily over Adams, Steele, Shuey, Yeo, Kelly as well as the rest of the teams you named.

All semantics really, but fact is Oliver is a star and not widely appreciated as such in the media.

 

Edited by Nascent
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8 hours ago, Turner said:

RATING THE LIST

A-grade: Gawn

B: Brayshaw, Fritsch, Lever, May, T. McDonald, Melksham, Oliver, Petracca, Salem, Viney, Weideman

C: Baker, Brown, Hannan, Harmes, Hibberd, Hore, Hunt, Jetta, Jones, Kolodjashnij, Langdon, Lockhart, O. McDonald, Neal-Bullen, Preuss, Smith, Tomlinson, Vandenberg

Developing (with A-B grade potential): Jackson, Pickett, Rivers

Developing: Bedford, Bradtke, Chandler, Jordan, Nietschke, Petty, Spargo, Sparrow

WHAT THE RATINGS MEAN:

A-grade: Elite player on any AFL list

B: Top 10-18 player on most lists

C: An 18-30 player on a list

Developing: Aged 21 or under

 

imo

TMac/Melk --> C

May, Petracca --> A

Petty --> Dev (A/B)

pretty hard to argue with the rest

Good work Turner I agree But would have Clarry as an A grader based on his 5 years total form and stats.

Would   def have Langers as a  B or B+ After his great season born out in the B and F .

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I hate to accept it but I think the article is pretty spot on, on most points although Trac and Oliver are definitely A grade and no way we trade ether of them.

I am a little worried the pies are trying to free up cap space for a shot at Trac, so we need to extend both these boys quick smart

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8 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

A grade (excels week to week): Petracca, May
A- (high quality but showing flaws): Gawn, Oliver
B (does a solid job most weeks) : Salem, Viney, Langdon
B- (has the talent but too inconsistent): Weid, Lever, Brayshaw, Harmes
C+ (mixes talent and flaws): Jackson, Rivers, Pickett
C (has some good and bad but can do a job): Hibberd, Melksham, Sparrow
C- (not regularly up to the job): Spargo, Tomlinson, J. Smith, Vanders, Lockhart, T Mc and plenty of others

Unranked: Hore, Petty and the other kids

I'm judging Max harshly for the end of his season and lack of coordination with his mids. Oliver the same, too many games where he didn't impact to be a true A grader right now.

We're too light on for good solid B graders. In 2018 Hibberd, Melksham, Gus, Harmes, Jetta were all solid or better (T Mc) B graders, now they aren't.

Same goes for C graders, there's a whole lot of the list that can't hold their spot in the side. Tomlinson is the only one who does and that's because our defensive depth is rubbish.

That’s a pretty good assessment, although I think a touch harsh on both Max and Clarrie.

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10 hours ago, Turner said:

RATING THE LIST

A-grade: Gawn

B: Brayshaw, Fritsch, Lever, May, T. McDonald, Melksham, Oliver, Petracca, Salem, Viney, Weideman

C: Baker, Brown, Hannan, Harmes, Hibberd, Hore, Hunt, Jetta, Jones, Kolodjashnij, Langdon, Lockhart, O. McDonald, Neal-Bullen, Preuss, Smith, Tomlinson, Vandenberg

Developing (with A-B grade potential): Jackson, Pickett, Rivers

Developing: Bedford, Bradtke, Chandler, Jordan, Nietschke, Petty, Spargo, Sparrow

WHAT THE RATINGS MEAN:

A-grade: Elite player on any AFL list

B: Top 10-18 player on most lists

C: An 18-30 player on a list

Developing: Aged 21 or under

 

imo

TMac/Melk --> C

May, Petracca --> A

Petty --> Dev (A/B)

pretty hard to argue with the rest

Buckenara has lost the plot. Plenty of howlers here but rating Langdon and Baker at the same level has to be the worst. Harmes looks well out of place in C grader company and rating Tracc a B is laughable coming off a season where he was top 3 in the comp. 
 

It’s not clear from this list if Buckenara’s even watched us play. But I can see how people with a glass half empty mindset might like the assessment.

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