Interesting discussion folks.

FWIW I have the feeling Richmond will be far too quick for the Cats tomorrow.

However, there are things the Cats do that Melbourne need to get better at. Their development is excellent. Turning later picks like Guthrie, Stewart, Parfitt, Menegola, JK, Myers, Henry, etc, into decent or even good players is remarkable. I think we've all said over the years that the likes of Bews, Rohan, O'Connor and Stanley were not good players but they'll do what no Melbourne player has done since 2000 and play in a grand final!

That's where Melbourne fails. Our bottom eight players are virtually non-contributors. And most of these guys (except Fritsch, Langdon, Hibberd and Gawn) are draft selections outside of the first round. Is it our development? Our recruiting? Our coaching? Influence of senior players? Why can we easily beat these guys in a semi-final and then go missing for two years?

Fix this and I think we'll be playing in a grand final soon. I think our top end talent is every bit as good or better than Geelongs. 

Edited October 23, 20204 yr by dee-tox

15 minutes ago, dee-tox said:

Interesting discussion folks.

FWIW I have the feeling Richmond will be far too quick for the Cats tomorrow.

However, there are things the Cats do that Melbourne need to get better at. Their development is excellent. Turning later picks like Guthrie, Stewart, Parfitt, Menegola, JK, Myers, Henry, etc, into decent or even good players is remarkable. I think we've all said the likes of Bews, Rohan, O'Connor and Stanley would never make it but they'll play in a grand final!

That's where Melbourne fails. Our bottom eight players are virtually non-contributors. And most of these guys are draft selections out of the first round. Is it our development? Our recruiting? Our coaching? Influence of senior players? Why can we beat these guys in a semi-final and then go missing for two years?

Fix this and I think we'll be playing in a grand final soon. I think our top end talent is every bit as good or better than Geelongs. 

I think it's a coaching and player thing. Not convinced it's development, but perhaps.

The fact we regularly have those bottom non contributors even when we win and everyone seems to contribute, I tend to think it's a poorly designed system.

The players also need to become more consistent and take ownership of consistency within game.

Chris Scott is a good coach. I don't think their system is as good as Richmond's, but he seems to be a bit of an innovator that can turn things around quickly. I like how he remodelled their forwardline in 2019 off the back of their disappointing exit in 2018. In truth, they were lucky to even make it that season. Their two wins after the siren against us basically got them in.

I think we've got 2 years left with this group and then that cliff will come unless they can really renew their midfield.

Their draft hand is artificially propped up by how lucky they got with Tim Kelly. Most clubs would have taken him between 25 and 35, and the cats just swept in. They couldn’t have dreamed he would have been so valuable and netted them so much only 2 seasons later. They got very, very lucky with that.

6 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

$177m of taxpayer money over the course of 15 years to help them monetize their stadium - from which they earn 100% of the signage and naming rights - has been a tremendous 'assistance' in terms of them becoming and maintaining their position as a big club

this is the new battleground

 

Assuming this is the Geelong way....

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.afl.com.au/news/521122/house-fire-shock-for-key-tiger-on-grand-final-eve/amp

9 hours ago, deespicable me said:

I do agree we can be successful, but ours is like the Bulldogs, it will be an outlier, a once off, hard to maintain for the very reason others have made clear (stadium, lifestyle and success over money). But the thing that is a worry and not right is the probability that Geelong finish at least top two and have an era of success, as much as any Melbourne supporter or at least 10 other clubs would love to see and then after that they go into 2021 STRONGER.

That's wrong. I understand it's important to incentivise clubs and give them something to work for but the fact Geelong enter the next season even stronger than their successful 2020 campaign is a complete disincentive to every club below about 6th. Supporters are an optimistic bunch but geez that is just wrong. The very system that was set up to equalize the competition is being manipulated to create a constant outcome that nobody except Geelong supporters want to see.

I don’t like the idea they’ll be stronger either dm but good clubs always find a way unfortunately.

They’ve defied gravity for a while and have a lot of aging players. I’m hoping they come back down to earth with a bang sooner rather than later.

Let’s focus on ourselves. Get some players and coaches in this off=season and go hard in 2021.

13 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

They don't cheat.

They're just very good at what they do.

They have a significant advantage in terms of lifestyle/cost of living, they're culturally ingrained in the Western Districts which is a footy-rich area and known for developing good talent, and they've developed a culture within the club (led significantly by Joel Selwood) by which players accept lower salaries than what the market would otherwise give them to keep the team together.

To assist with that strategy, they target established A-graders from other clubs, often weaker clubs, who want to taste success. Players like Dangerfield, Steven, now Cameron, all spent years at weaker clubs getting paid plenty (thanks to the minimum salary cap requirement) but not winning. Having banked plenty of cash, Geelong sells them a lifestyle and success, but not money. They take it because they're comfortable living off, say, $400,000 instead of $600,000 (I mean, it's not like $400,000 is not a comfortable living wage).

Coupled with a good drafting and development program which sees them get decent kids in the door with whatever picks they've got, and then building those kids up with good coaching and leadership (there's Selwood again), they're able to maintain their performance level.

Agree.

Will be interesting to see when Selwood retires. Might be a bit like the Lions after Voss finished. Selwood’s don’t grow on trees.

13 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

$177m of taxpayer money over the course of 15 years to help them monetize their stadium - from which they earn 100% of the signage and naming rights - has been a tremendous 'assistance' in terms of them becoming and maintaining their position as a big club

they have massive advantages that no other club has, from lifestyle through to training venue (their own home ground) and facilities, not to mention the constant rumours that cotton on deals 'help' with recruitment and retention

from wikipedia re the stadium:

A A$28 million redevelopment of the ground was announced in 2003, with A$13.5 million in funding from the Victorian Government, A$4.5 million from the Geelong Football Club, and A$2 million from the AFL.

In September 2007, Skilled Stadium received a further total of A$25 million towards the rebuilding of the Ross Drew Stand on the south western side of the ground. Funding for the project included A$14 million from the Federal Government and A$6 million from the Victorian Government.

April 2011: redevelopment cost $33 million, of which $11.7 million was spent on the new lighting.

The total cost of the fourth stage of redevelopment was $91 million, of which $75m came from the Victorian Government, $6m from the City of Greater Geelong, $6 million from the Geelong Football Club and $4 million from the AFL.

In April 2017, the Victorian Government announced an investment of $3.9 million in the upcoming state budget to fund the planning and design stage for Stage 5 of the redevelopment. The proposed redevelopment would be the final part of the more than decade-long process to increase the capacity of Kardinia Park to 40,000 and will result in the Ford Stand and Gary Ablett Terrace being removed for the new stand to ring around the remaining open-air section of the stadium.

Hopefully the Vic government will be as charitable towards us when we're fund raising for our MCG precinct HQ project. 

Edited October 23, 20204 yr by Better days ahead

13 hours ago, Half forward flank said:

Must diagree. 

Carry the name of the city means nothing when the suburban names are themselves Clubs. Others play at the G, no advantage. Financially secure until we spend and maintain  a home base. We are nowhere near Top 4.  The rise to be Richmond like starts with an honnest assessment.

2021  Our best player and coach will likely be gone if we dont go deep into  finals.

I guess I’m glass half full and you’re glass half empty.

They've been given an absolute handjob from the league in an attempt to boost the city's economic growth. That they can now lure the likes of Cameron to the club absolutely has to raise some suspicions. Dangerfield, Selwood, Hawkins, and now Cameron all likely to be on $700k+. They're doing something.

I think they need to win today or things will start to come apart at the seams.  Most clubs would love their continuous contending but it's situation normal for them and they'll definitely see 2nd as failure.  There will be massive pressure on Chris Scott and at least some of the players will start to doubt the message.

No doubt they'll be thereabouts for the next couple of years but that won't be enough. Closing on 10 years bridesmaids.

There will be a big winner today, but there will be a big loser too.

Geelong are successful due to their approach with young players. Each senior player is given a young player to mentor and help develop. Their club environment is such that no player is really over payed compared to what the bottom clubs pay . GWS is the classic example of money verses success. Most players want a flag and then money comes. There will never be equality until the rules of players changing club is made fairer. All draftees should be on 2x2 contracts with the clubs only allowed to delist recruits after 3 years and players become free agents after 4 if they haven’t played at least 25 games. Restricted and unrestricted rules remain the same except clubs taking these players lose draft picks according to their trade value . Example Geelong would lose two first round picks for Cameron.Then Geelong would have to trade with GWS with the draft picks they have left. The lost draft go back in the draft order . Also no father son , no academy preference  or compromise.The draft is the draft as per your position at years end .

 

 

Well they’ve been up for almost 15 years so who knows when they’ll slide or if they’ll slide. I was so sure they were done after 2018 and now look at them

It's fair to say I don't overly rate them even though they're on the cusp of another flag.  

Do I put it down to 2020 being such an unusual year ?  Great coaching ?  Or the lack of great teams due to the affects of equalisation ?  I suspect the latter with a sprinkling of the first two.

Seventeen of the 22 who run out tonight were part of the team that looked cooked as they trudged off the ground having lost an elimination final to Melbourne in 2018.  The new five are the flaky Stanley, a pacy small in Miers, the 8 possession/1 goal per game Rohan, third year improver 14 gamer Sam Simpson, and Dahlhaus, who's having a down year.  They certainly addressed forward-half pressure and pace.

But it's hardly a star-studded injection of talent.  I'd like to be able to say that it shows the value of role players, but they're not overly inspiring fringe players, who'd be bottom 8 or 9 players at just about every other club.  That said, who am I to argue ?  They play a role and their team is in the GF.

The bulk of the improvement must have come from the 17 who took their place against the Dees in 2018.  Guthrie and Menegola have stepped up, while their evergreens have had good years, including career best years for Hawkins and Duncan.  But it's fair to say I still don't overly rate them, although they are certainly well-drilled and predictable to each other (coaching).  

This brings me to my frustration re Melbourne.  We really should be a top 4 side based on list talent.  Yes, our depth may not be as good as some others and no doubt there was too much left to too few this year, but with a few savvy additions we really should be competing for top 4 next year.  

Fwiw, the departed five from their 2018 team are Tim Kelly, Abbott, Scott Selwood, Murdoch, and Menzel.  As a collective, the five that have come in are definitely better than the five going out.  Kelly has been replaced perhaps better than they expected. 

Edited October 23, 20204 yr by Hannibal Inc.

The Cats have realised that the key with Free Agency is really salary cap management - not drafting - and this is only possible by consistently making the finals. They obviously got lucky with Father Sons and superstars wanting to come ‘home’, but they also recruited well out of the draft over a long period. They also have one of the best coaches and a massive home ground advantage. 

While Geelong’s list demographics look terrible and it looks a bit like a Ponzi scheme on the edge of collapse, it looked the same pre Dangerfield. 

I wouldn’t be betting on a big dramatic fall given the Cats’ structural advantages and superior management. 

1 hour ago, Better days ahead said:

I guess I’m glass half full and you’re glass half empty.

Insulting to say to someone who has experienced nearly 60 years of ineptitude and failure.

20 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Well they’ve been up for almost 15 years so who knows when they’ll slide or if they’ll slide. I was so sure they were done after 2018 and now look at them

I remember the good days 2006 we finished above them

The two clubs have since taken divergent paths

 

5 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Insulting to say to someone who has experienced nearly 60 years of ineptitude and failure.

I wasn’t trying to be insulting.

Have a nice day HFF.

They are basically like an interstate club, they target players with a go home factor, but the target a lot form not only the Geelong/surf coast region but and good country vic player.

They go after players that want to move to that large country town or want country or beach lifestyle.

Massive advantage especially after what we have been through in 2020

27 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

It's fair to say I don't overly rate them even though they're on the cusp of another flag.  

Do I put it down to 2020 being such an unusual year ?  Great coaching ?  Or the lack of great teams due to the affects of equalisation ?  I suspect the latter with a sprinkling of the first two.

Seventeen of the 22 who run out tonight were part of the team that looked cooked as they trudged off the ground having lost an elimination final to Melbourne in 2018.  The new five are the flaky Stanley, a pacy small in Miers, the 8 possession/1 goal per game Rohan, third year improver 14 gamer Sam Simpson, and Dahlhaus, who's having a down year.  They certainly addressed forward-half pressure and pace.

But it's hardly a star-studded injection of talent.  I'd like to be able to say that it shows the value of role players, but they're not overly inspiring fringe players, who'd be bottom 8 or 9 players at just about every other club.  That said, who am I to argue ?  They play a role and their team is in the GF.

The bulk of the improvement must has come from the 17 who took their place against the Dees in 2018.  Guthrie and Menegola have stepped up, while their evergreens have had good years, including career best years for Hawkins and Duncan.  But it's fair to say I still don't overly rate them !  But they are certainly well-drilled and predictable to each other.  

This brings me to my frustration re Melbourne.  We really should be a top 4 side based on list talent.  Yes, our depth may not be as good as some others and no doubt there was too much left to too few this year, but with a few savvy additions we really should be competing for top 4 next year.  2021 is a very big year for the MFC.  Will the MCF ever be well-drilled, consistent, and predictable to each other ?

Fwiw, the departed five from their 2018 team are Tim Kelly, Abbott, Scott Selwood, Murdoch, and Menzel.  As a collective, the five that have come in are definitely better than the five going out.  Kelly has been replaced perhaps better than they expected. 

It amazes me that people don’t rate Geelong. 
The Cats finished 2018 in eighth but with the second highest percentage and then came up against a side that was white hot in the finals. 
They then won the minor premiership in 2019 and blew a half time lead in the preliminary final against the Tigers. 
This year they are in the GF. 
And they nearly always beat us. 

Called getting great people with clear strategies & sticking with them... not just trying to survive & doing debt demolitions, having a home base, no band aid approaches which the mfc have done over the last 50+ years, Nth Melb is another example of not what to do & we went through it in late 2000s & up to 2013 

Edited October 23, 20204 yr by Hogan2014

42 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

It amazes me that people don’t rate Geelong. 
The Cats finished 2018 in eighth but with the second highest percentage and then came up against a side that was white hot in the finals. 
They then won the minor premiership in 2019 and blew a half time lead in the preliminary final against the Tigers. 
This year they are in the GF. 
And they nearly always beat us. 

Are you aware of their finals record since 2011 ?

They're a good and consistent team, but they're hardly a great team and over recent years many of their finals teams have just been making up the numbers.

Edited October 23, 20204 yr by Hannibal Inc.

16 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

Are you aware of their finals record since 2011 ?

They're a good and consistent team, but they're hardly a great team and over recent years many of their finals teams have just been making up the numbers, albeit playing finals.

They are a great team if they win tonight. 

10 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

They are a great team if they win tonight. 

Not for me.

Just a team that had a great year.

16 minutes ago, Hannibal Inc. said:

Not for me.

Just a team that had a great year.

More like a consistently great team that finally put it together in the finals.