CHANGES: Rd 18 vs Essendon

[Demon trucker 1,800]

8 hours ago, DeeZee said:

At the time of finals in 2018 we beat Hawks and Cats who were both rebuilding and not in scathing form.

Hawks since have gone down further, whereas the Cats rebuild turned out a success.

We were good but still young and raw and not the team we are now with May , Lever and Petracca  mk2.

The whole competition has improved  as well and other sides have developed, like Saints, Lions, Freo, Suns and Port.

Geelong were not rebuilding their side has not  changed much, except for a few experience brought in, this is their last chance for a flag, they have a ageing list.

[bing181 9,446]

8 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

If we are really only a 8 or 9 spot team how did we finish 2 two years ago?

This is a genuine question.

a) Tom McDonald. We've lost his 2-3 goals/7 odd marks/15 odd possessions per game

b) Jordan Lewis. Hard, ruthless, experienced. Just having him out there made a difference and the players walk taller.

c) Bernie Vince. See Lewis (though to a lesser extent.)

d) Nathan Jones. See Vince

[forever demons 2,358]

12 minutes ago, bing181 said:

a) Tom McDonald. We've lost his 2-3 goals/7 odd marks/15 odd possessions per game

b) Jordan Lewis. Hard, ruthless, experienced. Just having him out there made a difference and the players walk taller.

c) Bernie Vince. See Lewis (though to a lesser extent.)

d) Nathan Jones. See Vince

Great post spot on bing

[Pates 9,692]

30 minutes ago, bing181 said:

The logical extension of this is that you could put out a VFL-level side with great "attitude and instructions" and have them compete.

Sooner or later you need good players, and to go deep into finals you need a lot of them.

Absolutely, and I made the point that their class players shon through when they needed to. But when you see the top teams win when their list has been hit hard by injury, while we continue to be inconsistent with a relatively fit list, attitude and instruction must play a big part. 

[darkhorse72 1,941]

21 minutes ago, bing181 said:

a) Tom McDonald. We've lost his 2-3 goals/7 odd marks/15 odd possessions per game

b) Jordan Lewis. Hard, ruthless, experienced. Just having him out there made a difference and the players walk taller.

c) Bernie Vince. See Lewis (though to a lesser extent.)

d) Nathan Jones. See Vince

The amount of coaching Goodwin was doing from the bench at the end of the GSW games, indicated to me that the players are not able to make them themselves on the field.  From what I could tell from the tv he was having to direct players to positioning etc.   Lack of a true leadership to organise the troops during games.  Hence why they can't stop run on's. 

[Engorged Onion 10,224]

24 minutes ago, Darkhorse72 said:

The amount of coaching Goodwin was doing from the bench at the end of the GSW games, indicated to me that the players are not able to make them themselves on the field.  From what I could tell from the tv he was having to direct players to positioning etc.   Lack of a true leadership to organise the troops during games.  Hence why they can't stop run on's. 

@Darkhorse72 - it feels like such a valid point (that was my first response to this) AND then I thought about Soccer/Football (EPL etc) managers who every single game do the same actions to gesticulate  for positioning etc etc. 

So these are my questions

Does this mean there is no true leadership on the field? 

How important are the 'runners' who now have limited access to set up structures?

Is it hard to see the woods for the trees if you're out on the field from a structural perspective?

 

Mmmmm plenty to ponder.

 

[Spit Demon 58]

12 hours ago, 58er said:

Yes Spit Dee it's disappointing but it's still reality that we have a better chance than Dr D is giving us and we have no idea how a Finals campaign might go beyond a bit of wishing and hoping.

BUT we did lose by 3,pts vs Lions and Cats so I can dream a little and have beaten Saints Pies and GWS!

Short of flag Potential Yes but nit as short as many think despite your assertion we should be the most feared in yheCompetition. (Or did you mean The Tigers !!)

I'm not entirely sure what the good Doctor said (sorry Doc), but personally I'm not the type to think every kid in the race deserves a ribbon. It would just be nice to see our team finish top two for once, waiting to smash whoever scrapes into the 8, then who ever else gets in the way. And Damn Right they should be the most feared! Has my negativity already rubbed off on you  ???.

[DubDee 26,512]

9 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

I agreed with your comment when I read it.

Now I am trying to reconcile how 2 seasons ago we were 1 win away from a Gf.

Yes we got thumped in the pf but we were well above this uear and especially last years standard.

If we are really only a 8 or 9 spot team how did we finish 2 two years ago?

This is a genuine question.

It really is pretty much the same team as 2018 so I think its reasonabke to assume they are better than our present ladder situation.

 

I think people are thinking we were a better team in 2018 than we really were. We were 14-8. If we beat bombers we’ll be 9-8 - which is equivalent to a 12-10 record in a normal season

so we are two wins off. Take into account some close losses this year we are not that different. Admittedly we scored a lot more freely in 2018 as we had good key fwds in form

[Lord Nev 13,512]

2 minutes ago, DubDee said:

I think people are thinking we were a better team in 2018 than we really were. We were 14-8. If we beat bombers we’ll be 9-8 - which is equivalent to a 12-10 record in a normal season

so we are two wins off. Take into account some close losses this year we are not that different. Admittedly we scored a lot more freely in 2018 as we had good key fwds in form

Not a maths expert by any stretch, but saying "we are two wins off" does not seem accurate. It's a 4 game turnaround, not 2. We'd need two more wins AND two less losses.

[Dr.D 1,771]

7 minutes ago, DubDee said:

I think people are thinking we were a better team in 2018 than we really were. We were 14-8. If we beat bombers we’ll be 9-8 - which is equivalent to a 12-10 record in a normal season

so we are two wins off. Take into account some close losses this year we are not that different. Admittedly we scored a lot more freely in 2018 as we had good key fwds in form

you've got to include 2 promising wins in the finals though. 

[DubDee 26,512]

2 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Not a maths expert by any stretch, but saying "we are two wins off" does not seem accurate. It's a 4 game turnaround, not 2. We'd need two more wins AND two less losses.

I think my brain just exploded trying to consider this ?

we won 2 games in 2018 we lost in 2020. So if Vanders kicked straight and we kicked another goal against the lions. That’s the difference 

[DubDee 26,512]

If Jackson is fully fit I would play him. He adds a new element to our team. Drop Weed if he needs a rest or Brown 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

2 minutes ago, DubDee said:

I think my brain just exploded trying to consider this ?

we won 2 games in 2018 we lost in 2020. So if Vanders kicked straight and we kicked another goal against the lions. That’s the difference 

Ok, so going by 64%, which was our winning percentage in 2018, we would have to be 11-6 this year to equal that. So yeah, 2 more wins, but also 2 less losses, if you get what I'm saying? If this year was a normal amount of games our record would be 11.6-10.4... My brain is wrecked too now!

Also, our percentage is telling:

2018 - 131.4

Currently - 106.2

[WERRIDEE 5,636]

B: SALEM, MAY, LEVER

HB: RIVERS, TOMLINSON, HIBBERD

C : LANGDON, PETRACCA, BAKER

HF: MELKSHAM, JACKSON, FRITSCH

F: PICKETT, WEIDEMAN, SPARGO

FOLL: GAWN, OLIVER, VINEY

IC: HUNT, NEAL-BULLEN, JETTA, VANDENBERG

EMRG: SMITH, BROWN, SPARROW, HARMES

[Pates 9,692]

1 hour ago, bing181 said:

a) Tom McDonald. We've lost his 2-3 goals/7 odd marks/15 odd possessions per game

b) Jordan Lewis. Hard, ruthless, experienced. Just having him out there made a difference and the players walk taller.

c) Bernie Vince. See Lewis (though to a lesser extent.)

d) Nathan Jones. See Vince

I think a lot of people underestimate how important those three were to the side. Jones is still with us but has lost a lot of his ability to make contests and be effective around the ball. 

Lewis was huge for us in the two finals we won with moments of leadership and experience. His aggression and the way he stood up to pressure has never been properly replaced (May being the only one I could say has lifted the team like that). 

[Demon17 5,240]

20 minutes ago, WERRIDEE said:

B: SALEM, MAY, LEVER

HB: RIVERS, TOMLINSON, HIBBERD

C : LANGDON, PETRACCA, BAKER

HF: MELKSHAM, JACKSON, FRITSCH

F: PICKETT, WEIDEMAN, SPARGO

FOLL: GAWN, OLIVER, VINEY

IC: HUNT, NEAL-BULLEN, JETTA, VANDENBERG

EMRG: SMITH, BROWN, SPARROW, HARMES

Good call. Jackson/Weideman is the future. Lets see how they go in a crunch game.

[Pates 9,692]

I know he has been quiet in recent weeks but I’m genuinely miffed at the suggestions of dropping Weid. This is our last chance dance, he’s clearly made a positive impact on the team this year and a key forward target, and people want to drop him to bring in TMac who has shown exactly sweet FA?

I don’t get it at all. 

[forever demons 2,358]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Ok, so going by 64%, which was our winning percentage in 2018, we would have to be 11-6 this year to equal that. So yeah, 2 more wins, but also 2 less losses, if you get what I'm saying? If this year was a normal amount of games our record would be 11.6-10.4... My brain is wrecked too now!

Also, our percentage is telling:

2018 - 131.4

Currently - 106.2

tried to do that and now going for a ly down

[forever demons 2,358]

29 minutes ago, Pates said:

I know he has been quiet in recent weeks but I’m genuinely miffed at the suggestions of dropping Weid. This is our last chance dance, he’s clearly made a positive impact on the team this year and a key forward target, and people want to drop him to bring in TMac who has shown exactly sweet FA?

I don’t get it at all. 

 

[forever demons 2,358]

Just now, forever demons said:

 

the weid is our future for sure took hawkins at geelong years to become a power forward when weid grows balls he will a champ hope he stays at mfc

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 11,051]

2 hours ago, bing181 said:

a) Tom McDonald. We've lost his 2-3 goals/7 odd marks/15 odd possessions per game

b) Jordan Lewis. Hard, ruthless, experienced. Just having him out there made a difference and the players walk taller.

c) Bernie Vince. See Lewis (though to a lesser extent.)

d) Nathan Jones. See Vince

Cherry picking the losses and not counting the gains there.

I don't disagree that those guys were somewhat of a loss (though Vince had about the same level of influence as Jones has this year), but it's discounting that we have had players like May, Lever and Langdon come into the side at the expense of guys like Frost.  Patracca has gone to new levels this year which somewhat offsets some of the downsides.

The way Hogan played in 2018, he is another big loss, but somewhat offset by the improvement in Weid.

Players come and go and get in and out of top form.  I personally don't think the change in level of personal between 2018 and 2020 is that substantial.  I actually think we are close to the same level of performance this season as what we were in 2018, which is compeditive, but not world beaters.

At the heart of the issue is that the core of the team is just entering an age of maturity that puts us in the frame to be a genuine contender IF we can take the next step and go from an average side to a true champion side that puts together a consistent season which puts us into the top 4 and a genuine premiership contender, not just a top 8 contender.

[DeeSpencer 26,631]

1 hour ago, Pates said:

I think a lot of people underestimate how important those three were to the side. Jones is still with us but has lost a lot of his ability to make contests and be effective around the ball. 

Lewis was huge for us in the two finals we won with moments of leadership and experience. His aggression and the way he stood up to pressure has never been properly replaced (May being the only one I could say has lifted the team like that). 

Lewis aggressive? At Melbourne or South Warrnambool?

He played well against the Cats from memory. Went to ground and water against the Hawks. Barely fronted up against the Eagles.

We miss his on field organisation. Or more correctly we miss a coach who can get all senior players to bring on field organisation.

Jones wasn't exactly great on a wing back then but he did his job and that's certainly the level of player that we need a few more of, especially hard runners with decent enough kicking skills.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 11,051]

2 hours ago, DubDee said:

I think people are thinking we were a better team in 2018 than we really were. We were 14-8. If we beat bombers we’ll be 9-8 - which is equivalent to a 12-10 record in a normal season

so we are two wins off. Take into account some close losses this year we are not that different. Admittedly we scored a lot more freely in 2018 as we had good key fwds in form

It's not an apples and apples season though.  2018, we had a ~22 round season, played a bunch of bottom teams twice and didn't have the 6-6-6 rule, before which we had a game style which ideally suited our team with ruck dominance.  I don't think the shorter quarters and more defensive, lower scoring games this season has necessarily suited our team either.

Whether we make finals or not, I measure our 2020 as being pretty close to 2018, by the fact that we have performed about the same against the top sides, thrashed/beat up pretty much all the bottom most sides and dropped a few games to middle of the road teams like Freo and Sydney that we did to St Kilda and Sydney in 2018.  This year we have been compeditive with most of the top teams, but just haven't been able to get over the top of them at crucial moments or been quite good enough.

Edited September 16, 2020 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[Pates 9,692]

3 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Lewis aggressive? At Melbourne or South Warrnambool?

He played well against the Cats from memory. Went to ground and water against the Hawks. Barely fronted up against the Eagles.

We miss his on field organisation. Or more correctly we miss a coach who can get all senior players to bring on field organisation.

Jones wasn't exactly great on a wing back then but he did his job and that's certainly the level of player that we need a few more of, especially hard runners with decent enough kicking skills.

Twice Lewis put his body on the line hard against the Hawks at crucial moments. He may not have been amazing, I would’ve called it a serviceable performance, but he did things that you expect of leaders at the right time  

Nobody front up against Eagles, if you can pick one player out of the 22 that day that did anything positive I’ll be impressed. 

[layzie 34,493]

I don't understand the dropping Weid theory either. He's played some very poor games lately granted but surely he plays this week.