On 23/09/2020 at 13:34, DeeSpencer said:

Is Shaw attempting to build good habits or is he a desperate young coach preaching a mantra of contest and physicality because he doesn't have the ability to teach skills and ball movement?

Shaw has decided that at age 27 despite playing the same way for his career Polec needs to add hardness and contested ball winning. So he sends him to tag Cripps. A move that pretty much anyone would suggest isn't smart. It's a disaster. He then frees up Polec from the tag - but still has him play on ball - and he gets 25 touches and is key part to North's comeback.

David Teague gave Polec the 4 coaches votes in that game. So he was clearly aware of his value.

Polec is nearly 28 and on a fat contract for 3 more years that will likely still be chunky no matter which was you slice it, so that's a concern. And whether it's the defensive running, lack of hardness at the contest of very left sided-ness there's certainly some concerns. But it's also an opportunity where you've got a coach putting his foot down for whatever reason and very much devaluing an asset. 

If we're smart we down play it and don't show any more interest than the possibility of doing North a favour and taking a bit of cash from their books. Like the Cats with Josh Jenkins. Have it all happen late and with a minimum of interest. But if we get him stuff all there's no way he's not a huge improvement on what we have.

I read somewhere (apologies can’t remember where) that he was dropped following the Carlton game because he was suppose to tag Cripps the entire game. Instead he went against the coaches orders and stopped tagging him. 

Would be interesting to have Jaws (from the Bond films) in the team, no doubt. 

Edited September 23, 20204 yr by Mel Bourne

I never liked the way he tackled Shuey high in the finals with 10 seconds to go that cost Port their season a few seasons ago. I know it's only 1 piece of play but we need guys with high IQ because we already have far too many dumb players on our list.

At his best he is a very, very good footballer.  He has weaknesses (mainly in mindset) but would fit in perfectly on the opposite wing to Langdon.

If it’s a salary dump and costs next to nothing in trade, then it’s a yes from me.

 

  On 23/09/2020 at 22:55, Dr.D said:

I never liked the way he tackled Shuey high in the finals with 10 seconds to go that cost Port their season a few seasons ago. I know it's only 1 piece of play but we need guys with high IQ because we already have far too many dumb players on our list.

You mean the way he tackled Shuey almost around his waist before Shuey flat out cheated?

 

  On 23/09/2020 at 22:29, Ethan Tremblay said:

I read somewhere (apologies can’t remember where) that he was dropped following the Carlton game because he was suppose to tag Cripps the entire game. Instead he went against the coaches orders and stopped tagging him. 

Jed Anderson played on him for the next 3 quarters so unless Polec and Anderson took it upon themselves to do what they should've done from the start of the game I don't think that's true. Polec certainly didn't try very hard to tag him in the first quarter though.

He is well good enough to be our 2nd wing, across the ground from Langdon. Would only take him if North paid half his ridiculous salary.

Also, it sounds like Shaw has made a number of player blunders this year trying to establish himself coaching a list he knows needs to be turned over, so Polec wanting out of North might be a reasonable response.

The issue that rings alarm bells for me, is this would be his 4th club. Sounds a bit Mitch Clark-ish to me; a very talented footballer whose approach to team sport is too mercenary.

There are others I would pursue before him.

It comes down to this for me, would you trade him for Tom McDonald? Yes you would.

We have barely no bargaining chips in terms of draft picks, and we cannot trade future picks either as far as I know, as we already did this year. 

So it will come down to a player trade, and in which case, I would take an outside runner with good skills to fill that second wing spot, and get rid of a slow lumbering tall who hasn't done anything since 1987 and is on big dollars. 

  On 23/09/2020 at 13:34, DeeSpencer said:

Is Shaw attempting to build good habits or is he a desperate young coach preaching a mantra of contest and physicality because he doesn't have the ability to teach skills and ball movement?

Clearly he's setting standards to his players as he tries to instill a defensive 'team first' culture, just like Roos did with us and multiple other coaches have done as well. Roos brought in Vince and Cross to alter the culture of the side, and clearly Rhyce is trying to do the same thing. 

He's been given a clear remit to rebuild the team after a decade of topping up under Scott. They're bottoming out and that involves building the team around the values the coach wants. The second part of your question about 'doesn't have the ability to teach skills and ball movement' is complete rubbish and just trying to shoehorn an excuse for Polec. Wins are irrelevant to North this year, just as they were to us in 2014.

  On 23/09/2020 at 13:34, DeeSpencer said:

Shaw has decided that at age 27 despite playing the same way for his career Polec needs to add hardness and contested ball winning. So he sends him to tag Cripps. A move that pretty much anyone would suggest isn't smart. It's a disaster. He then frees up Polec from the tag - but still has him play on ball - and he gets 25 touches and is key part to North's comeback.

You're looking at the move from a single game perspective, which is not how Shaw or North would be looking at it. They're in rebuild mode, where the results aren't as important as the system and habits. If Polec won't follow instructions and his young team mates see that it doesn't make any difference, then why should they? And it may result in an extra win or two now this year, but you're building a team on foundations of sand. North know, more than most, that being a 'near enough' team sucks and they'll do the rebuild properly this time. 

  On 24/09/2020 at 00:30, Axis of Bob said:

Clearly he's setting standards to his players as he tries to instill a defensive 'team first' culture, just like Roos did with us and multiple other coaches have done as well. Roos brought in Vince and Cross to alter the culture of the side, and clearly Rhyce is trying to do the same thing. 

He's been given a clear remit to rebuild the team after a decade of topping up under Scott. They're bottoming out and that involves building the team around the values the coach wants. The second part of your question about 'doesn't have the ability to teach skills and ball movement' is complete rubbish and just trying to shoehorn an excuse for Polec. Wins are irrelevant to North this year, just as they were to us in 2014.

So what did Shaw do last year when he changed the North game plan to long bombs down the line and ground out a number of wins and talked up their finals chances?

Not a single person said rebuild with North this year until they started losing. And the first thing Shaw started talking about was toughness, a vague and mostly useless term when talking about AFL footballers.

Justin Longmuir is a guy who has clearly stamped a culture on Freo. All the malingerers went straight out of the side. A clear game plan that is defensive first but still moves the ball was implemented. And guess what - Freo won a number of games, so they've changed the culture towards winning. Shaw has just created a cultural vacuum that he now needs to fill.

  On 24/09/2020 at 00:30, Axis of Bob said:

You're looking at the move from a single game perspective, which is not how Shaw or North would be looking at it. They're in rebuild mode, where the results aren't as important as the system and habits. If Polec won't follow instructions and his young team mates see that it doesn't make any difference, then why should they? And it may result in an extra win or two now this year, but you're building a team on foundations of sand. North know, more than most, that being a 'near enough' team sucks and they'll do the rebuild properly this time. 

Jed Anderson can't kick at all. Why didn't Shaw ask him to play half back flank and have 20 kicks a game? 

Trying to make Polec tag Cripps as a way of stamping your authority on a playing group is just BS.

I've got no issue with Polec getting dropped. Or even have him play half back flank and deal with the poor up field defending or cover a man.

And I absolutely hope the Melbourne coaches are very thorough determining if Polec does do enough defensive running and contested work. But I won't hold it against Polec that a young coach tried to fit a square peg in a round hole and then found out it didn't work.

  On 24/09/2020 at 00:48, DeeSpencer said:

So what did Shaw do last year when he changed the North game plan to long bombs down the line and ground out a number of wins and talked up their finals chances?

Not a single person said rebuild with North this year until they started losing. And the first thing Shaw started talking about was toughness, a vague and mostly useless term when talking about AFL footballers.

They delisted 11 players before they even got a chance to get to the trade table ..... I think it's clear that they've been pretty set on a rebuild. 

Also they were aiming for finals last year. 2019 was a bit of a 'last chance saloon' for them, and when it became clear that they couldn't do it Brad Scott left. The fact the Shaw got a short term bump wouldn't have altered their view .... you don't change coaches mid-season to make finals that year!!

  On 24/09/2020 at 00:48, DeeSpencer said:

Jed Anderson can't kick at all. Why didn't Shaw ask him to play half back flank and have 20 kicks a game? 

Trying to make Polec tag Cripps as a way of stamping your authority on a playing group is just BS.

I've got no issue with Polec getting dropped. Or even have him play half back flank and deal with the poor up field defending or cover a man.

Because Jed Anderson isn't going to perform a skill better because he tries harder to do it but Jared Polec can play more defensively if he tries harder to do it. One's a skill and the other is a behaviour. It's like a talented batsman who throws his wicket away (Polec) going for a slog, rather than a tail ended  (Anderson) trying to defend but just not being good enough. You can't change the skill much, but you might open with the slogger for a few games (even if it isn't his best role) with the simple instruction of 'I don't care how many runs you score, just be there after 20 overs' because you get a long term benefit. That's what Shaw is doing. 

  On 23/09/2020 at 22:29, Ethan Tremblay said:

I read somewhere (apologies can’t remember where) that he was dropped following the Carlton game because he was suppose to tag Cripps the entire game. Instead he went against the coaches orders and stopped tagging him. 

If that's the case, get him in ASAP. Anyone who does the opposite of what Goodwin tells them will win a Brownlow!

  On 24/09/2020 at 01:17, Axis of Bob said:

They delisted 11 players before they even got a chance to get to the trade table ..... I think it's clear that they've been pretty set on a rebuild. 

Also they were aiming for finals last year. 2019 was a bit of a 'last chance saloon' for them, and when it became clear that they couldn't do it Brad Scott left. The fact the Shaw got a short term bump wouldn't have altered their view .... you don't change coaches mid-season to make finals that year!!

It’s been reported multiple times that by about round 5 last year Scott said we need to aggressively rebuild. Whilst the North staff and Shaw thought the list was good enough to keep going with what they got.

They did a pick swap with us but didn’t make significant list moves last year. Imagine what they would’ve got for Brown, Polec and Higgins last year? Goldy and Higgins had deals on the table from Geelong and North said no.

Im certainly not sold on Polec but if I were him I’d be struggling for motivation too. He’s come to a club that’s not only shifted their intentions but taken a year longer than they needed to. 

 

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.theage.com.au/sport/afl/debate-over-north-melbourne-rebuild-as-fagan-defends-charlie-cameron-20200815-p55m01.html

 

Upon taking over as senior coach after Brad Scott departed last season, Shaw had faith the Roos did not need a major overhaul, something Scott reportedly felt was the case. However, now in his first full season in charge and dealing with life in a hub, Shaw admitted on Saturday his mindset had changed.

"I was really confident going into the pre-season of where we stood. I don't think injuries have helped our situation. We have been decimated by injuries throughout the year," he said pre-match on Fox Footy.

"We found out about a few people and we will continue to find out. I think it (his mindset) has probably changed a bit but, in saying that, I am clearly adapting to what the situation entails. I am really looking forward to what we can do. We have a great young list ... I am really excited about that and looking forward to the future."

  On 24/09/2020 at 02:03, DeeSpencer said:

They did a pick swap with us but didn’t make significant list moves last year. Imagine what they would’ve got for Brown, Polec and Higgins last year? Goldy and Higgins had deals on the table from Geelong and North said no.

Fair enough. That misreading of the list (how?!?!) was clearly a mistake. 

As it relates to Polec, the misreading of the list doesn't make me less concerned. I think he's worth speaking to but I'd be really concerned about his time at north this year. In a game that's now so heavily built on team defence, I'd be worried about bringing in a kick chaser. I think you'd need to be really clear on what the issues were and whether you could fix/manage them. 4 clubs in 11 years across 3 states .....

  On 24/09/2020 at 02:23, Axis of Bob said:

Fair enough. That misreading of the list (how?!?!) was clearly a mistake. 

As it relates to Polec, the misreading of the list doesn't make me less concerned. I think he's worth speaking to but I'd be really concerned about his time at north this year. In a game that's now so heavily built on team defence, I'd be worried about bringing in a kick chaser. I think you'd need to be really clear on what the issues were and whether you could fix/manage them. 4 clubs in 11 years across 3 states .....

I'm sure we'd be chatting to Polec and North to work out what's going on but my opinion is that he's an icing on the cake type player, and would really add to our best 22 as an attacking weapon that we really lack. 

for me the only serious concern i have about pursuing him is the price tag, if North are willing to pay some of his salary and it's no more than a third round pick, i would absolutely be recruiting him. 

It's poor by North though, being seen as publicly pushing guys out the door i think puts you in a position where you really have to just take what you can get. 

On this i'd also be keen to have a chat to Shaun Higgins, beautiful kick and we could really use the on field leadership. it sounds like he's a long way down the path with Geelong, but potentially we could talk him into it. 

  On 23/09/2020 at 23:53, DeeSpencer said:

You mean the way he tackled Shuey almost around his waist before Shuey flat out cheated?

 

Gee watching that in slow motion, the decision is outrageous.

  On 24/09/2020 at 03:05, deanox said:

Gee watching that in slow motion, the decision is outrageous.

It was a clear duck by Shuey, but it was a limp old effort of a tackle by Polec. Reminds me of Melksham’s effort last weekend.

  On 24/09/2020 at 02:34, Patches O’houlihan said:

I'm sure we'd be chatting to Polec and North to work out what's going on but my opinion is that he's an icing on the cake type player, and would really add to our best 22 as an attacking weapon that we really lack. 

for me the only serious concern i have about pursuing him is the price tag, if North are willing to pay some of his salary and it's no more than a third round pick, i would absolutely be recruiting him. 

It's poor by North though, being seen as publicly pushing guys out the door i think puts you in a position where you really have to just take what you can get. 

On this i'd also be keen to have a chat to Shaun Higgins, beautiful kick and we could really use the on field leadership. it sounds like he's a long way down the path with Geelong, but potentially we could talk him into it. 

The salary balances out if we trade TMac for him. Both need a scenery change,  both on big money in the reserves. If we think Polac offers us more than TMac then its an easy decision. 

If we think TMac can get back to his best, then it's not a good deal.

 

  On 23/09/2020 at 13:40, Moonshadow said:

Was it Jeff's fault Pike punched out the young woman who was the coach's PA when she said he wasn't in the office?

Don't know who's fault was who's just that I preferred Pike to Hilton. Jeff was a beast at Dromana I think it was when I used to watch the local finals, just didn't translate to senior footy. I thought that Pike went after giving Hilton a belting. Apologies if I didn't get my facts straight just preferred one over the other. 

  On 24/09/2020 at 03:13, 3183 Dee said:

It was a clear duck by Shuey, but it was a limp old effort of a tackle by Polec. Reminds me of Melksham’s effort last weekend.

Nah Polec got him on the arm/elbow and started to wrap, but Shoey shrugged his arm up. 

  On 23/09/2020 at 23:53, DeeSpencer said:

You mean the way he tackled Shuey almost around his waist before Shuey flat out cheated?

 

hardly around the waist. the waist is the top of the footy shorts. his arms go nowhere near it. 

He would fit our needs, particularly with longer quarters on the MCG.

  On 23/09/2020 at 22:45, Mel Bourne said:

Would be interesting to have Jaws (from the Bond films) in the team, no doubt. 

Is that the big fella from Happy Gilmour?

If we sign him his first stop has to be a visit to Salem's Barber Shop

  On 24/09/2020 at 04:15, Cheesy D. Pun said:

Is that the big fella from Happy Gilmour?

Indeed.