Robert Muir

[Adam The God 30,057]

31 minutes ago, robbiefrom13 said:

the thing is, I think, people are all a mixture of things - and we get the idea of "the dominant story", when that's only part of it.  The Robert Muir story in the paper the other day put up some of the "alternative stories" about him.  A lot of us only knew the "mad dog" story, which Northey rightly (wisely) called out early on.  You see things confirming the dominant story, and it becomes the person's identity.  Those in a position to influence opinion need to be making sure dominant stories don't lock people into deep pigeonholes with no way out.  

Coaches can strengthen players by drawing out their alternative stories - and actively opposing negative dominant stories; at the same time, they won't help anyone by trying to force onto a player an alternative story that is not part of that player's make-up.  St Kilda should have seen the negative dominant story of their new guy, and realised how essential it was going to be to counteract that - his talent was surely enough to have created a whole new dominant story.  

Jurrah was characterised as the Warlpiri Warrior, and the Jurrahcane - not helpful, with hindsight.  His particular skillset could have been made the main story, and should have been.  Harping on about defensive skills when he was clearly the most electrifying offensive force in the competition - it was denying his identity, and pushing away what was the dominant story that brought him to Melbourne.

Please let us value Harley Bennell for who he really is.  And all of us refuse these racist stereotyping stories that reduce players to categorised clones.  Not everyone is good at adopting such a required dominant story.  Football teams try to make the most of their players, even though there can be a mixture of parts to the player.  In among the various stories of each individual, there can be stories that are valid and troubling, and needing intelligent care.

Makes you realise what a wonderful person  Robbie Flower was - brilliantly skilled, modest (claimed he was overpaid for what he did!) and always with a smile and time for anyone, unshakable optimist, team-oriented, loyal forever...  Hard to think of a negative story.  But Robbie Muir shared some of those attributes.  People have a mixture of parts, and good management recognises this and brings out the best.  Roos was skilled there.  "Sink or swim" is no management strategy - and nor is "you made your bed - you'll have to lie in it."  Good management will draw the person into their better bits - they are equally as true - and we unfortunately don't always get to choose which bit of us becomes the dominant story.  Community has a responsibility.  

Sorry, too long.  

Great, insightful and thoughtful post.

[dice 692]

On 8/23/2020 at 8:48 AM, Engorged Onion said:

Wasn’t sure where to put this mods. Here is an uncomfortable article dealing with the impact of racism in the VFL, with a very brief portion from a very humanistic John Northey.

Losing makes me sad, but not as a sad as how we treat those ‘different’ from us.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-08-23/persecution-of-robert-muir-story-football-doesnt-want-to-hear/12553554
 

Go Dees.

Appealing for a lenient sentence, O'Shaughnessy said: "He's one of the few Aboriginal players who's got a bit of spirit and go — most of them haven't. They turn it up. He's got more go than the average fellow has of his race, he bounces back. When his name crops up you hear these comments: 'Haven't they hung him yet?' and 'Where's the firing squad?' I often wonder whether people think this player should go on the field bound hand and foot."

Disgraceful comments by the Old Xaverian Brian O'Shaughnessy - the same bloke who was on the 1965 committee at Carlton that seduced and wrested Ron Barassi away from Melbourne, which still curses our Club to this day....

Edited August 24, 2020 by dice

[Sir Why You Little 36,909]

34 minutes ago, dice said:

Appealing for a lenient sentence, O'Shaughnessy said: "He's one of the few Aboriginal players who's got a bit of spirit and go — most of them haven't. They turn it up. He's got more go than the average fellow has of his race, he bounces back. When his name crops up you hear these comments: 'Haven't they hung him yet?' and 'Where's the firing squad?' I often wonder whether people think this player should go on the field bound hand and foot."

Disgraceful comments by the Old Xaverian Brian O'Shaughnessy - the same bloke who was on the 1965 committee at Carlton that seduced and wrested Ron Barassi away from Melbourne, which still curses our Club to this day....

That is a truly disgusting quote

Thanks for bringing it to prominence 

[Fork 'em 6,983]

Well the 1st thing St.Kilda or the AFL should do is bring out a Robert Muir highlight package displaying some of the skills he possessed.
I know the narrative when I was a kid and you never saw any of that.
It was always Muir losing his sheet.
Playing for the lowly Saints probably didn't help as they very rarely featured in replays.

Just did a You-tube search and found nothing but Muir belting people.
Highly doubt they all called him names.
Sometimes you also have to own your conduct rather than rolling out a list of excuses..

Edited August 24, 2020 by Fork 'em

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

7 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

Just did a You-tube search and found nothing but Muir belting people.
Highly doubt they all called him names.
Sometimes you also have to own your conduct rather than rolling out a list of excuses..

Seriously, that's what you took away from the article?

 

 

[Cranky Franky 2,015]

Lets hope he gets the help he needs & is acknowledged for what he achieved.

He got hit with a triple whammy.  Disfunctional upbringing with a violent father, racism during his footy career and mental health issues.

 

[Robbie57 2,020]

An important story and a reminder we have a long way to go to understand the terrible effects of racism, in all its subtle and not so subtle forms, has on people.  

Edited August 24, 2020 by Robbie57

[Fork 'em 6,983]

4 minutes ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

Seriously, that's what you took away from the article?

 

 

No doubt he copped his fair share of rubbish.
But he also never did himself any favours.
Can't just blame every-one else.

[Adam The God 30,057]

40 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

No doubt he copped his fair share of rubbish.
But he also never did himself any favours.
Can't just blame every-one else.

Such a shallow analysis. Try and put yourself in his shoes. If you'd been beaten by your father, if you'd suffered racism in your day-to-day life, if you were regularly abused for trying to go about your job... how would you react? I don't think you could know without experiencing it. 

 

 

Edited August 24, 2020 by A F

[Fork 'em 6,983]

22 minutes ago, A F said:

Such a shallow analysis. Try and put yourself in his shoes. If you'd been beaten by your father, if you'd suffered racism in your day-to-day life, if you were regularly abused for trying to go about your job... how would you react? I don't think you could know without experiencing it. 

 

 

No worries.
Same with every thug that finds themselves in court for violent crimes.
They shouldn't just get a pass because of their upbringing.
I read Muirs story a couple days ago.
Did he accept responsibility anywhere?
Not sure he did.
 

Edited August 24, 2020 by Fork 'em

[Adam The God 30,057]

42 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

No worries.
Same with every thug that finds themselves in court for violent crimes.
They shouldn't just get a pass.
I read Muirs story a couple days ago.
Did he accept responsibility anywhere?
Not sure he did.
 

No one is saying Robert should get a pass.

But it's far too easy to right off his experiences with, 'well, he did himself no favours'. 

Do we talk about Leigh Matthews or Dermie that way? No. Why is that?

It's exactly the sort of problem our society continues to have, at both sides of the political spectrum. Some people assume our experiences must be everyone else's. Well, no. They're not.

Edited August 24, 2020 by A F

[hardtack 10,506]

On 8/23/2020 at 12:21 PM, binman said:

The footy show episode says everything you need to know about racism in this country. And how far we have to go to even get close to meaningful reconciliation.

 

Yes, reading that reaffirmed every reason that I intensely hate those pond scum!

[Lucifers Hero 39,320]

Surgery Funds Raised

"A GoFundMe page was created for Muir to help try and reach the $28,000 mark required for Muir’s surgery. Incredibly, that figure was reached in under five hours, with more than $100,000 has been raised".

Great to see people rally and support.

[Fork 'em 6,983]

11 hours ago, A F said:

No one is saying Robert should get a pass.

But it's far too easy to right off his experiences with, 'well, he did himself no favours'. 

Do we talk about Leigh Matthews or Dermie that way? No. Why is that?

It's exactly the sort of problem our society continues to have, at both sides of the political spectrum. Some people assume our experiences must be everyone else's. Well, no. They're not.

Matthews and Brereton eh.
Now let me see ......
 
One played over 300games, won 4 flags as a player, another 4 as a coach and is decorated like few others. 
The other got his 5 flags from 200games and commentates to this day.
Both are regarded as a couple of the best players who have played the game.
I can type their names into You-tube and come up with clips like these.

 

Type in Robbbie Muir however.
Well .... Find me a good one.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=robbie+muir

Edited August 24, 2020 by Fork 'em

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

Are you providing Youtube highlights of Dermie and Matthews to argue that Muir's life of violence, mental illness and abuse was purely self-inflicted and in no way linked to underlying racial disadvantage and discrimination?

Everyone's responsible for their own actions, sure. No one's said otherwise. But facts are that if Muir was born white, he would have copped far less abuse, been more likely to succeed in the AFL and less likely to spiral out of control off-field (statistically speaking).

That's troubling.

[rjay 24,814]

8 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Matthews and Brereton eh.
Now let me see ......
 
One played over 300games, won 4 flags as a player, another 4 as a coach and is decorated like few others. 
The other got his 5 flags from 200games and commentates to this day.
Both are regarded as a couple of the best players who have played the game.
I can type their names into You-tube and come up with clips like these.

 

Type in Robbbie Muir however.
Well .... Find me a good one.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=robbie+muir

...and there lies the problem.

If you can't see it, I can't help you.

Edited August 24, 2020 by rjay

[Cranky Franky 2,015]

41 minutes ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

Are you providing Youtube highlights of Dermie and Matthews to argue that Muir's life of violence, mental illness and abuse was purely self-inflicted and in no way linked to underlying racial disadvantage and discrimination?

Everyone's responsible for their own actions, sure. No one's said otherwise. But facts are that if Muir was born white, he would have copped far less abuse, been more likely to succeed in the AFL and less likely to spiral out of control off-field (statistically speaking).

That's troubling.

If he was born white & had a dysfunctional childhood, with a violent father and had mental health issues as well he might well have had a similar outcome.

There was less welfare support from Clubs & the AFL back then & less support for mental ilness.

 

[Fork 'em 6,983]

1 hour ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

Are you providing Youtube highlights of Dermie and Matthews to argue that Muir's life of violence, mental illness and abuse was purely self-inflicted and in no way linked to underlying racial disadvantage and discrimination?

Everyone's responsible for their own actions, sure. No one's said otherwise. But facts are that if Muir was born white, he would have copped far less abuse, been more likely to succeed in the AFL and less likely to spiral out of control off-field (statistically speaking).

That's troubling.

Good onya.
I was providing highlights responding to the odd question as why Matthews and Brereton aren't talked about the same way.
But like it or not, regardless of what issues Muir had he did himself no favours throughout his short career.
Nor after.
He went on the Footy show for eg.
Could have shown himself in a different light but .... No.
But that was all Sam and Eddies fault for waving a few hundred extra bucks at an alcoholic drug abuser.
Hope he's abit wiser with his latest windfall.
Playing the old race card in this environment sure pays.

Did he ever get on Marngrook?
Not sure he did .... Wonder why.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Fork 'em

[hemingway 7,615]

Some excellent posts. 

We are a product of our times. We accept now that this country and all others have accepted, tolerated and reinforced racism. We accept that governments, institutions and individuals all had a popular and  prevailing view of indigenous populations, which went to genetics, appearance and customs.  Differences in values and behaviours all formed part of our beliefs.  With the benefit of time, education and understanding , the majority of us accept that our beliefs of yesteryear were sadly wrong, and lead to prejudice, intolerance and incorrect government policies. 

In many cases, White Australia thought it was doing the right thing when clearly this was not the case. 

Regarding footy, racial stereotypes persisted for a long time. Going walkabout was the term commonly used to describe indigenous players. Not tough enough was another.  Now we recognise that all clubs seek to recruit talented indigenous players because of their X factor. The ability to see the game differently, to instinctively know where the ball is going and to create something special. What Demon supporter can forget the magic of Jeff Farmer. He was truly a wizard. 

At the same time, we can view things differently and not be seen as a racist. The Adam Goodes story is a case in point. Sure the ignorant and stupid minority used racist taunts and descriptions. Perhaps some booed him because of the colour of his skin. But many booed him simply because of the way he played. They would have booed him whether he was white or black. Footy spectators have always responded negatively to those traits that are inconsistent with the prevailing view of the way footy should be played. Show boating, staging, appealing to the umpire, the kick to me thing. The show pony has always attracted the ire of the crowd. Think of the way that opposition supporters booed Buckley when he played. Think of his nick name. Fig jam. Perhaps if he was black many would regard it as a racist view or have racist undertones. Think of the way opposition supporters abused Big Carl or Rodney Grinter. They were regarded as dirty players and at times played not only outside the rules but outside the values and moral code regarding the way the game should be played. 

In the case of Robbie Muir, he played in a similar vein to many others. However, there are rules and we expect transgressors to be punished for doing the wrong thing. 

So we need understanding and balance. Understanding the childhood influences, the prejudice  and an appreciation that difference is sometimes not tolerated by the mainstream. But for the game to function we need rules and a moral compass that forms part of the way we view the game and how it should be played.

Was Muir abused and taunted because of the colour of his skin or the way he played the game. For some it was one or the other or a combination of both. 

But we need understanding and a sense of balance in forming our views and opinions. Some times things can be seen in black and white terms ( yes, including our view of Collingwood!) but most of the time we need to explore and understand all the shades of grey. The uncertainties are what life is all about.  

[Red and Blue realist 2,051]

On 8/24/2020 at 8:42 AM, Half forward flank said:

Never met Robbie, wish I had, and I will do what I can to reach out and give him a personal letter of support. Perhaps Demonland could offer their support as well? If possible it was made ever more harrowing for me as I knew the second in charge of the Collingwood Cheer Squad and also have spent considerable time with quite a few of the members of a Champion team who Robbie had an outburst against. The players are  regarded as good knock about blokes. It is hard to know what they were thinking. And boy, what a player he may have been. He had the most lightning reflexes I have ever seen. 

He used to get around Ballarat when I was in my early 20s, and you'd run into him at the various pubs normally earlier in the day (between 12pm and 4pm - I can't recall seeing him out and about much after that), but he'd always stop by and have a chat/share a joke. Seemed like a nice guy, completely different to that fearsome reputation. I think he used to take himself home, or at least away from the public, before they got too rowdy and started any sort of trouble. 

[Half forward flank 1,022]

5 minutes ago, Red and Blue realist said:

He used to get around Ballarat when I was in my early 20s, and you'd run into him at the various pubs normally earlier in the day (between 12pm and 4pm - I can't recall seeing him out and about much after that), but he'd always stop by and have a chat/share a joke. Seemed like a nice guy, completely different to that fearsome reputation. I think he used to take himself home, or at least away from the public, before they got too rowdy and started any sort of trouble. 

Nice post. Red and Blue. I would imagine he would be tickled pink to receive a letter of support from opposition Clubs. Who knows what went on in Saints/ Dees games back then. Regardless we are the football community.  I gre up with some ethnic kids. They were abused every game we played. They also went to a Private school where the teachers treated them like animals. Some thirty years later at a reunion the school issued an informal apology. I know it meant a lot to them.

[Fork 'em 6,983]

3 hours ago, rjay said:

...and there lies the problem.

If you can't see it, I can't help you.

Don't need your help.
But I could set up a Go Fund Me if ya wanna throw me a few bucks anyway.

Edited August 25, 2020 by Fork 'em

[Lucifers Hero 39,320]

A very gracious and heartfelt response by Muir to St Kilda's reaching out and to the support he has received from so many.

i-ve-been-overwhelmed-healing-begins-for-robert-muir-saints-make-contact

[Lord Nev 13,512]

15 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Matthews and Brereton eh.
Now let me see ......
 
One played over 300games, won 4 flags as a player, another 4 as a coach and is decorated like few others. 
The other got his 5 flags from 200games and commentates to this day.
Both are regarded as a couple of the best players who have played the game.

One of them is also the only VFL/AFL player to be arrested for something they did on the field.

You just proved everyone else's point.

[Rab D Nesbitt 8,336]

I found it a horrendous read and hard to finish the article. Fair play to St K for making an unequivocal apology to the guy.