On 26/03/2025 at 09:30, binman said:

You don't think there is an element of overreacting to one game in the whole 'our midfield bulls set up has ti change' palaver?

I mean, yes we need more speed and outside run in the middle. Which is why they are using Langdon (by the by many people are arguing we should end that experiment) and koz as permanent mids.

BUT:

- maxy had his least impactful game for a long time. 

- tracc, our best midfield bull only spent 77% TOG and basically played deep forward for half a game

- Chandler played on ball in the last and we got smashed out of the middle

- in the previous match we almost beat a top 4 team in large part because of our ability to score from stoppages BECAUSE of our bulls

- the roos absolutely obliterated us at centre bounces and stoppages with a midfield full of bulls!

Our last 11 games we have won clearance twice.

I'd say its a fairly important part of the game that we have dropped dramatically

What is it? Do the players know? How about Goody? He flipped back to the old one mid season 2023 as they were losing in the same way! Yet what’s the 2025 version get smashed out of the middle, & 10 goal loses, he hasn't evolved needs to go as he’s destroying the list

20 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

Our last 11 games we have won clearance twice.

I'd say its a fairly important part of the game that we have dropped dramatically

Your words will fall on deaf ears. Some ppl on here just refuse to believe that there may be a reality out there that suggests we're not on the right path. And you're quoting the king of them!

To me, today clearly shows that Goodwin is losing the players. Our most senior and experienced players. It was beyond putrid. Effort, skill, execution. Just unbelievable.

I could count on the fingers of one hand the amount of times we decided to hit up hard at the ball carrier today

13 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

We clearly don’t have the foot skills to chip the ball around in the backline. May, Rivers, Lever, Petty, Oliver, Viney and Langdon can’t maintain possession and will turn it over. I know kicking down the line to Max isn’t a modern way forward but we don’t have the list profile to play any other method.

Agree with most of what you have said. We overuse the ball in and coming out of the backline. And the inevitable turnover happens and we concede a score. Honestly I would rather a chaos ball clearing the ball out of the backline out to the wing to the advantage side of Langdon/ Sharp/Chandler/Kozzie/Lindsay (fingers crossed) . But the way we set up ahead of the ball sets us up to fail, there is no imagination. Forwards pushing up the ground so high with no targets forward of the ball. Hold some back which creates space in the midfield / corridor as it would force the hand of the opposition to hold players back. If they play a plus one we need to identify that and have a target 20 metres ahead of the plus one and use the short option instead of blazing away. Our ball Movement is too slow, leading to congestion in our forwardline.

Everyone in the AFL has known for years that our forwardline and its functionality and midfield to forward connection has been our Achilles heal. Sick of hearing the same platitudes “ we will leave no stone unturned”, “need to be better in all 3 phases of the game” etc. Goodwin cannot coach offence. He has coached any attacking flair out of the players and the team as a whole. Nothing has changed here and unfortunately I have no faith that it will. Would need a massive over correction in his mindset to do so. I mean offence based on setting up defensively. Release the shackles and let the players play and have some fun with their football, see what happens.

The possession game tactic doesn't suit our forward setup (lack of tall marking options) for while we are possessing it the opposition (which is faster than us) are flooding back. This clogs up the middle while transitioning back, then delivers them an outnumber in our forwards when we finally enter. Our best option consequently is to lead to the high pocket for a tough shot on goal if we get it.

A small forward line needs speed on the ball (get it in quick), and for entries to he low, our in front or even on the ground. Of course it requires rhe forwards to lead up at the ball ( even if it's to create space behind for another to lead up at the ball or for a ground ball!

The aim should be to move the ball quickly to a high forward 50 entry (think about 40-50 metres out). Which is harder to defend.

Of course a SLOW small/medium forward line offers nothing!!!!!

Modern football is attacking from a turnovet or the backline in a wave of runners, with quick ball movement, and if a turnover occurs fanatic pressure to create a ballup (unfortunately this outcome no longer favours us).

Edited Saturday at 22:142 days by Ungarieboy

Absolutely no synergy in the team at the moment. Players either haven't bought into the new gameplan, don't understand it or simply cant execute it.

Can someone explain to me why Clarry wrestles with his player at every single centre bounce?

I can't see the benefit.

15 hours ago, Redleg_Knowledge said:

Your words will fall on deaf ears. Some ppl on here just refuse to believe that there may be a reality out there that suggests we're not on the right path. And you're quoting the king of them!

2 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Can someone explain to me why Clarry wrestles with his player at every single centre bounce?

I can't see the benefit.

He got monstered by Rowell as well. Didn't show anywhere near the desperation Rowell did both at ball and man and Rowell left Clarry in his wake on multiple occasions at centre bounce.

Edited Sunday at 01:082 days by Redleg_Knowledge

2 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Can someone explain to me why Clarry wrestles with his player at every single centre bounce?

I can't see the benefit.

This does my head in. FFS Clarrie focus on the ball. Kozzie does the same.

I watched our centre square set ups closely yesterday. We have gone back to bees at the honeypot.

This to me is everyone trying too hard to do it themselves with teamwork or trust in your teammate to get the ball.

In the past 11 games we have won clearance twice.

Our vaunted mid-field is nothing of the sort.and we'd be better running Chandler, Sparrow, Laurie and Max through there.

Edited Sunday at 01:322 days by jnrmac

Hey @binman , serious questions, can you please explain to me just what our game plan is supposed to be. Because what I’m seeing is just a mass of confusion and contradictions.

For example, the keeping’s off game down back is so slow that it allows the opposition time to flood back and block up any forward entry. There is no room for forwards to lead- hence we are always bombing to a pack. So that form of entry is self defeating surely.

Whatever it is, do you believe our game plan is suited to and is appropriate for today’s game style? What we are doing looks different to all other teams I’ve watched this year. And it certainly doesn’t look like it is a winning game plan so far.

Do you think it’s time for Goody to be honest and admit it’s not working and change our approach? Not easy, and there would be initial pain, but perhaps we’d see some light at the end of the tunnel There is certainly no light at present And the players look and are playing like they are none believers.

I know we have injuries to key players, but that doesn’t account for the unacceptable skill levels we are seeing, or the complete lack of awareness being shown (or lack of on field communication) by players with the ball, or simply the confusion demonstrated by the players on how to play the game.

They have had the whole preseason to get the game plan working Its now coming up to round 4, we are 0/3, and looking confused and utterly bereft of any shred of confidence. Do you feel that the players have lost confidence in the game plan and, by extension, Goody as well?

What, IYO, is the best way forward?

Thanks

What was one of the more interesting and objective threads on Demonland has, like so many others, been hacked by the "let's bag Goody" brigade. Such a shame.

On a more objective note, why does everyone seem to want us to play the "modern game" of fast movement etc? If we choose to play that way, don't we have to become the BEST at it if we want to win a flag? And if we're are starting from behind in terms of playing personnel, skills etc, then our chances of becoming the best are slim or nil. Wouldn't it be better to play our own game of contest and defence, and rely on that to be capable of beating the alternative game style?

45 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Hey @binman , serious questions, can you please explain to me just what our game plan is supposed to be. Because what I’m seeing is just a mass of confusion and contradictions.

For example, the keeping’s off game down back is so slow that it allows the opposition time to flood back and block up any forward entry. There is no room for forwards to lead- hence we are always bombing to a pack. So that form of entry is self defeating surely.

Whatever it is, do you believe our game plan is suited to and is appropriate for today’s game style? What we are doing looks different to all other teams I’ve watched this year. And it certainly doesn’t look like it is a winning game plan so far.

Do you think it’s time for Goody to be honest and admit it’s not working and change our approach? Not easy, and there would be initial pain, but perhaps we’d see some light at the end of the tunnel There is certainly no light at present And the players look and are playing like they are none believers.

I know we have injuries to key players, but that doesn’t account for the unacceptable skill levels we are seeing, or the complete lack of awareness being shown (or lack of on field communication) by players with the ball, or simply the confusion demonstrated by the players on how to play the game.

They have had the whole preseason to get the game plan working Its now coming up to round 4, we are 0/3, and looking confused and utterly bereft of any shred of confidence. Do you feel that the players have lost confidence in the game plan and, by extension, Goody as well?

What, IYO, is the best way forward?

Thanks

With out any data to back this up I'd guess kozzie, mcVee and Windsor are the quickest players on our list. They are all missing. Chandler would be up there with them and no surprise he is excelling at the moment.

A game plan is reliant on the cattle and at the moment we don't have it.

40 minutes ago, Ollie fan said:

What was one of the more interesting and objective threads on Demonland has, like so many others, been hacked by the "let's bag Goody" brigade. Such a shame.

On a more objective note, why does everyone seem to want us to play the "modern game" of fast movement etc? If we choose to play that way, don't we have to become the BEST at it if we want to win a flag? And if we're are starting from behind in terms of playing personnel, skills etc, then our chances of becoming the best are slim or nil. Wouldn't it be better to play our own game of contest and defence, and rely on that to be capable of beating the alternative game style?

A couple of decades ago the Italian football team were bagged for playing the ultra defensive physically aggressive “Catenaccio” game. It was not pretty fast flowing football the critics told us. It was boring and a blight on the game. That said it brought Italy two World Cup victories and they were one of the most dominant world teams for decades. Then they changed their game to be more attacking and attractive in the modern style and duly became just another average team which can’t even make the World Cup competition any more.

We're trying to play a new game style. The players didn't keep at it for long enough yesterday. It was an ordinary performance. Absolutely no doubt about that. Listless.

We are using the chipping game at half back that Geelong and then Hawthorn last year used.

When we played Hawthorn last year, we beat them by 9 goals. They spent most of the game chipping it uncontested across half back to free themselves up from our zone. It didn't work and they looked listless. Sound familiar?

Hawthorn also lost their first five games last year. They were pummelled. It took time to build confidence and trust in their system. They lost to Essendon by 4 goals, to us by 9 goals, Geelong by 6 goals, Collingwood by 5 points, Suns by practically 9 goals, before finally beating a hopeless, bottom of the table North in Round 6.

To me, our players look like they don't trust the system. Yet.

Go back to the start of 2022 and Collingwood trying to learn their new run and gun game style under McRae. They were 5 wins, 5 losses to Round 10, and at times looked completely hopeless. They got on a roll after that.

The point I'm obviously making is this will take time.

To start talking about rebuilding or sacking the coach at Round 3 is ridiculous.

Even if we were to sack Goody, the coach who would replace him would be trying to play the transition game we're trying to implement.

I think it's perfectly fine to have this conversation at the end of the season, and I think we'll know earlier, but the idea that we pack it all in after we've been trying to implement a new game style based on quick, accurate ball use (utilising Windsor, McVee, Lindsay and Kozzy), when most of them have failed to get on the park is folly IMO.

Is our list build at its conclusion? Of course it b loody isn't. We'll need to keep adding guys that can run and have clean skills like those aforementioned guys (and be aggressive with our trading), but that doesn't mean this season is over. If Hawthorn had thought that after Round 5 2024, they'd be nowhere, and Collingwood after Round 10 2022, no flag for them.

The key stumbling block is the potential mental fragility of our players, which is being mirrored by some supporters who want to rebuild after 3 rounds.

We need to execute on game day and build trust in the system, at least for 2025.

A guy like Langford who was hitting those angled kicks into the corridor yesterday, we need more of, Kozzy is capable of them too. Instead of going back slowly, because the movement ahead of the ball and around the ball carrier is stagnant or uncertain, we start hitting those kicks more, and the ball movement becomes more instinctive, which means players start to trust the game style more.

I still think Viney needs to play forward (he won't be dropped), Trac needs to play majority forward and Sparrow needs to make way or (as @rjay has previously suggested), we try him in the Hibberd lockdown defensive role, which might free McVee up to play high half back. Rivers needs to play midfield too, because he butchers it too often at half back.

Our starting midfield should be Oliver, Langford and Kozzy, with support coming from Trac, Rivers and Viney.

Edited Sunday at 03:012 days by Adam The God

10 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

We're trying to play a new game style. The players didn't keep at it for long enough yesterday. It was an ordinary performance. Absolutely no doubt about that. Listless.

We are using the chipping game at half back that Geelong and then Hawthorn last year used.

When we played Hawthorn last year, we beat them by 9 goals. They spent most of the game chipping it uncontested across half back to free themselves up from our zone. It didn't work and they looked lilistless. Sound familiar?

Hawthorn also lost their first five games last year. They were pummelled. It took time to build confidence and trust in their system. They lost to Essendon by 4 goals, to us by 9 goals, Geelong by 6 goals, Collingwood by 5 points, Suns by practically 9 goals, before finally beating a hopeless, bottom of the table North in Round 6.

To me, our players look like they don't trust the system. Yet.

Go back to the start of 2022 and Collingwood trying to learn their new run and gun game style under McRae. They were 5 wins, 5 losses to Round 10, and at times looked completely hopeless. They got on a roll after that.

The point I'm obviously making is this will take time.

To start talking about rebuilding or sacking the coach at Round 3 is ridiculous.

Even if we were to sack Goody, the coach who would replace him would be trying to play the transition game we're trying to implement.

I think it's perfectly fine to have this conversation at the end of the season, and I think we'll know earlier, but the idea that we pack it all in after we've been trying to implement a new game style based on quick, accurate ball use (utilising Windsor, McVee, Lindsay and Kozzy), when most of them have failed to get on the park is folly IMO.

Is our list build at its conclusion? Of course it b loody isn't. We'll need to keep adding guys that can run and have clean skills like those aforementioned guys (and be aggressive with our trading), but that doesn't mean this season is over. If Hawthorn had thought that after Round 5 2024, they'd be nowhere, and Collingwood after Round 10 2022, no flag for them.

The key stumbling block is the potential mental fragility of our players, which is being mirrored by some supporters who want to rebuild after 3 rounds.

We need to execute on game day and build trust in the system, at least for 2025.

A guy like Langford who was hitting those angled kicks into the corridor yesterday, we need more of, Kozzy is capable of them too. Instead of going back slowly, because the movement ahead of the ball and around the ball carrier is stagnant or uncertain, we start hitting those kicks more, and the ball movement becomes more instinctive, which means players start to trust the game style more.

I still think Viney needs to play forward (he won't be dropped), Trac needs to play majority forward and Sparrow needs to make way or (as @rjay has previously suggested), we try him in the Hibberd lockdown defensive role, which might free McVee up to play high half back. Rivers needs to play midfield too, because he butchers it too often at half back.

Our starting midfield should be Oliver, Langford and Kozzy, with support coming from Trac, Rivers and Viney.

I hear you re: patience and building trust and confidence in the system, but this mediocrity has been going on for quite a while now, so the time is rapidly running out. And the appalling skills is not helping. It shows a team completely bereft of confidence.

1 minute ago, Spargonicus said:

I hear you re: patience and building trust and confidence in the system, but this mediocrity has been going on for quite a while now, so the time is rapidly running out. And the appalling skills is not helping. It shows a team completely bereft of confidence.

I agree. Wasn't Shand meant to be this guiding mental force now?

5 hours ago, Dee Viney Intervention said:

Agree with most of what you have said. We overuse the ball in and coming out of the backline. And the inevitable turnover happens and we concede a score. Honestly I would rather a chaos ball clearing the ball out of the backline out to the wing to the advantage side of Langdon/ Sharp/Chandler/Kozzie/Lindsay (fingers crossed) . But the way we set up ahead of the ball sets us up to fail, there is no imagination. Forwards pushing up the ground so high with no targets forward of the ball. Hold some back which creates space in the midfield / corridor as it would force the hand of the opposition to hold players back. If they play a plus one we need to identify that and have a target 20 metres ahead of the plus one and use the short option instead of blazing away. Our ball Movement is too slow, leading to congestion in our forwardline.

Everyone in the AFL has known for years that our forwardline and its functionality and midfield to forward connection has been our Achilles heal. Sick of hearing the same platitudes “ we will leave no stone unturned”, “need to be better in all 3 phases of the game” etc. Goodwin cannot coach offence. He has coached any attacking flair out of the players and the team as a whole. Nothing has changed here and unfortunately I have no faith that it will. Would need a massive over correction in his mindset to do so. I mean offence based on setting up defensively. Release the shackles and let the players play and have some fun with their football, see what happens.

Agree on chaos ball. Not as a plan but an alternative to putting it on the head of a pack of players.

Whilst the players do look confused, I don't think we should conflate a chronic, pervasive lack of confidence with a bad game plan.

I don't know what the new game plan is....I'm not sure we've seen it....perhaps glimpses in round 1 (but it was wet).

Those that go to training may know what it is but the rest of us can't possibly judge it at this point.

One thing we do know for sure is that no game plan would be successful when players can't make simple passes, fumble the ball at ground level, don't work for each other and show little effort off the ball. These are the issues we currently face and they are rooted in no confidence, no joy, no connection.

I think between losing at the death and capitulating to north Melbourne, they're shellshocked. Off the back of such a tumultuous 18 months, it doesn't take much to wedge open a crack in a fragile group. That's what's happened ...and whilst we might think the suns at home was a good chance to respond ..it's almost perversely worse ..we couldn't do it again could we? Then it began....and kept going....and the lack of confidence spiralled even deeper. Causing more fumbling, less talk, less joy.

Carlton are in a similar albeit perhaps less dramatic place. They are clearly better than Richmond but being scared to lose in that 2nd half was like a virus that infected all of them. They're still struggling to shake it.

Bad leadership perhaps, but I think what we are seeing is a group that has not healed from last year. Perhaps they never will.

Honestly we had to take the chance to start fresh. I love Trac and clarry but our problems are clearly starting at centre bounce. They once played for each other...they certainly don't anymore.

The dogs did the right thing moving on Baz ..even if they got unders. He's now someone else's distraction (a stronger club, that can handle it) whilst the dogs are playing team oriented footy with some lesser lights and newbies feeling ownership and purpose.

What I hate is we are desperate. We push them out, then beg them to stay. We rush back injured starts. We play the first rounders right away. We throw the skipper under the bus looking for excuses. We throw two VFL boys in the hope they are diamonds in the rough.

For a good few years there ...we took our time. Petty was given a long apprenticeship in the VFL. Trac came back from his knee thru the vfl. Etc. etc....we played long term games.

Weak clubs look for short term solutions. And we are a very weak club.

18 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

We're trying to play a new game style. The players didn't keep at it for long enough yesterday. It was an ordinary performance. Absolutely no doubt about that. Listless.

We are using the chipping game at half back that Geelong and then Hawthorn last year used.

When we played Hawthorn last year, we beat them by 9 goals. They spent most of the game chipping it uncontested across half back to free themselves up from our zone. It didn't work and they looked listless. Sound familiar?

Hawthorn also lost their first five games last year. They were pummelled. It took time to build confidence and trust in their system. They lost to Essendon by 4 goals, to us by 9 goals, Geelong by 6 goals, Collingwood by 5 points, Suns by practically 9 goals, before finally beating a hopeless, bottom of the table North in Round 6.

To me, our players look like they don't trust the system. Yet.

Go back to the start of 2022 and Collingwood trying to learn their new run and gun game style under McRae. They were 5 wins, 5 losses to Round 10, and at times looked completely hopeless. They got on a roll after that.

The point I'm obviously making is this will take time.

To start talking about rebuilding or sacking the coach at Round 3 is ridiculous.

Even if we were to sack Goody, the coach who would replace him would be trying to play the transition game we're trying to implement.

I think it's perfectly fine to have this conversation at the end of the season, and I think we'll know earlier, but the idea that we pack it all in after we've been trying to implement a new game style based on quick, accurate ball use (utilising Windsor, McVee, Lindsay and Kozzy), when most of them have failed to get on the park is folly IMO.

Is our list build at its conclusion? Of course it b loody isn't. We'll need to keep adding guys that can run and have clean skills like those aforementioned guys (and be aggressive with our trading), but that doesn't mean this season is over. If Hawthorn had thought that after Round 5 2024, they'd be nowhere, and Collingwood after Round 10 2022, no flag for them.

The key stumbling block is the potential mental fragility of our players, which is being mirrored by some supporters who want to rebuild after 3 rounds.

We need to execute on game day and build trust in the system, at least for 2025.

A guy like Langford who was hitting those angled kicks into the corridor yesterday, we need more of, Kozzy is capable of them too. Instead of going back slowly, because the movement ahead of the ball and around the ball carrier is stagnant or uncertain, we start hitting those kicks more, and the ball movement becomes more instinctive, which means players start to trust the game style more.

I still think Viney needs to play forward (he won't be dropped), Trac needs to play majority forward and Sparrow needs to make way or (as @rjay has previously suggested), we try him in the Hibberd lockdown defensive role, which might free McVee up to play high half back. Rivers needs to play midfield too, because he butchers it too often at half back.

Our starting midfield should be Oliver, Langford and Kozzy, with support coming from Trac, Rivers and Viney.

Geelong don’t play like that at all. They play a fast ball movement game in straight lines.

We don’t have the list to play a possession game. Bowey and McVee and the only defenders with the kicking skills required to play that way.

All our key unskilled players are on big money, long contracts and are in decline. This is a problem without a clear solution.

In the last play of the first game Max did the most exquisite tap to the running Langdon. He moved to position beautifully like an old time rover. However he slightly fumbled the ball. Playing midfield to Max gives or has given our stars an armchair ride. Now Max is not dominating but our mids are still playing totally offensively seemingly unaware the chances of max winning the centre bounce has gone from high probability to even money.

16 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

Geelong don’t play like that at all. They play a fast ball movement game in straight lines.

I didn't say they did. They used to. And they were pilloried for it, and then they shifted their game to territory like ours. And now they've shifted again.

49 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

We're trying to play a new game style. The players didn't keep at it for long enough yesterday.

Think we’re scored 4 goals and 17 conceded so far in the 4th quarters this season. Out of steam or swords down when game’s gone?