No plan B?

[DeeZee 7,493]

We don’t seem to have a plan B Incase the opposition is getting on top of us like last night against Port.

opposition teams since the 2018 Prelim have various plans to beat Melbourne and it’s usually built around Max Gawn.

They will try and body him heavily, tag him, shark his tap outs or ring around our inside kids to pressure them and stop them getting it out.

Why not try Maxy  at full forward with Jacko in the ruck and May at centre half forward and TMac at full back.

We need something radical to throw them off and still play to our strengths with Max being a very good Mark one on one

Plan C could be Maxy thumping the ball way out of the centre square but have our mids ready for it ready to run to that point centre , left or right.
Im just tired of seeing games slip away with opposition tactics as clear as day and always being too late in the last quarter to do anything about it.

[deebug 1,754]

You have to have a plan A before you can have a plan B

[Demonland 74,244]

The Plan actually works except that other clubs have worked it out. The FD are just too stubborn to recognise it.

I was in the "We have no Plan B" camp but honestly our issues are so fundamental that they would just transfer from one plan to the next.

 

[Adam The God 30,687]

I reckon we have 2 plans. One is fully formed but one dimensional and the other is half baked and inconsistent. Plan A is contested, clearance footy as we all know. The half baked plan B is where we go long down the line to a contest with crumbers at the foot of the pack (see Richmond’s ball movement), with a wave of support runners or we look to hit up short passes from centre wing towards half forward.

It is very rare that we get that last part right, i.e. short passes from centre wing towards half forward. We don't work hard enough or take the game on enough. Teams know this is an area of weakness and if they play 1v1 in a cluster, we won’t look to switch or use the ground to its full width. We were big on angles a few seasons ago, but we’ve never been good on width and we also (for mine) lose patience too quickly. 

Our kicking over 20-30m is also too inconsistent to play the chipping game Clarkson made so famous and successful. I do think Collingwood showed you don’t have to have brilliant kickers if you’ve got players who are prepared to work hard into space though.

The problem with our brand is it is so labour-intensive in winning the ball in the first place, when we do then we don’t have the legs to work into space, with the exception of Langdon. It’s a massive problem and I think we got too cute with selection. Tomlinson’s running power is absolutely needed for the modern game and particularly our game style.

I don’t think teams worked us out in the prelim, I think teams knew how to beat us prior to that game, we just managed to bring the pressure in the games we won (those finals against Geelong and Hawthorn, our pressure was excellent). But as soon as our pressure drops even 10%, we’re in trouble. If it drops off even more and we fail to lay tackles like last night, we get mauled.

I think it’s too simplistic to say we have no plan B, but I reckon Plan A is too flawed and one dimensional.

Edited July 31, 2020 by A F

[Tricky 341]

3 hours ago, Demonland said:

The Plan actually works except that other clubs have worked it out. The FD are just too stubborn to recognise it.

I was in the "We have no Plan B" camp but honestly our issues are so fundamental that they would just transfer from one plan to the next.

 

Too stubborn or too stupid - it's hard to tell.

I'm completely disillusioned with the club.

They are incredibly talented and embarrassingly stupid. It's like watching a bunch of robots who cannot think beyond their programming.

You can see them entering the forward 50, with no options (a problem in itself), realising that and just hurrying the ball in anyway when Blind Freddy can see it will be a wasted opportunity.

One example of many....Can they really be this dumb or is their programming just plain wrong?

Edited July 31, 2020 by Tricky

[DeeZee 7,493]

Plan A worked in 2018, but had since been worked out by good opposition 

[Adam The God 30,687]

1 hour ago, DeeZee said:

Plan A worked in 2018, but had since been worked out by good opposition 

I think everyone has worked us out. I don't think Port are a particularly good side. We fumbled and fumbled early in the peace last night (never seen Oliver so sloppy - I'm not talking about his kicking, I'm talking about his fumbling of the ball) when the game was still absolutely there for the taking. Oliver kicks that one at quarter time and we're two goals down after being pathetic all quarter. But we made Port look like a top side. I think in the wash up, they'll end up being the equivalent of a top 6 team, but who knows, in a year when there are no stand out teams, maybe they'll make a prelim or a grand final. I doubt it though.

As for us, we haven't tweaked enough since 2018. Yeah, we've brought in May and now Lever is fit, but what game style changes have we made in two years? At a point, you've gotta go, nope, this plan isn't working, let's try something else.

There's no doubt Goodwin is coaching for his career here, but what other ideas does he have to implement other than let's win contested footy and convert that into scoreboard pressure?

[deanox 10,069]

I honestly don't think it's anything to do duty plans: it's all about execution. 

We couldn't win the clearances, we didn't take marks, we didn't run into space for uncontested possessions. That's not plan.

[DistrACTION Jackson 10,663]

The problem is we don't have enough strings to our bow, other than a strong inside mid group.

If the inside mid group is down then we struggle, last night being a prime example.

What we are missing:

1. Leg speed - The tigers would probably have 3 or 4 players that are quicker than our quickest.

2. Pressure forwards - Fritsch, Hannan and Melksham are too similar. We should only be playing 2 of these three.

3. Precision kicking - I'd say the only players that are above average kicks are Pickett, Salem and Bennell. You could potentially throw in Fritsch and Rivers but they are borderline.

We need to trade out one of our mids and get a quality outside runner. We also need to look at drafting another high pressure forwardto compliment Pickett.

Too many holes to fix this season, but one good off season and another pre-season into Pickett, Rivers and Jacko will go a long way to getting this list up to scratch.

We've shown we can do it when we belted the Hawks. But once top sides pressure us we go to water.

[poita 3,941]

1 hour ago, DeeZee said:

Why not try Maxy  at full forward with Jacko in the ruck and May at centre half forward and TMac at full back.

Gawn can't kick, so it is pointless him being in the forward line. More importantly it takes him away from playing a kick behind play.
lso, Jackson is useless in the ruck, unless he is going to stay down and rove to the opposition ruckman. Not his fault, he just isn't tall enough to be a modern day ruckman.

[DistrACTION Jackson 10,663]

Just now, poita said:

Gawn can't kick, so it is pointless him being in the forward line. More importantly it takes him away from playing a kick behind play.
lso, Jackson is useless in the ruck, unless he is going to stay down and rove to the opposition ruckman. Not his fault, he just isn't tall enough to be a modern day ruckman.

Jacko will be fine. He will beef up after 1 or 2 more pre-seasons.

[roy11 4,057]

13 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

The problem is we don't have enough strings to our bow, other than a strong inside mid group.

If the inside mid group is down then we struggle, last night being a prime example.

What we are missing:

1. Leg speed - The tigers would probably have 3 or 4 players that are quicker than our quickest.

2. Pressure forwards - Fritsch, Hannan and Melksham are too similar. We should only be playing 2 of these three.

3. Precision kicking - I'd say the only players that are above average kicks are Pickett, Salem and Bennell. You could potentially throw in Fritsch and Rivers but they are borderline.

We need to trade out one of our mids and get a quality outside runner. We also need to look at drafting another high pressure forwardto compliment Pickett.

Too many holes to fix this season, but one good off season and another pre-season into Pickett, Rivers and Jacko will go a long way to getting this list up to scratch.

We've shown we can do it when we belted the Hawks. But once top sides pressure us we go to water.

I did enjoy watching Bedford and Pickett in Round 1 (despite the scoreline), wouldn't mind seeing that again. 

[Young Blood 2,642]

It's really clear how the midfield has been beaten the last two weeks. The physicality of opposition mids of both Port and Brisbane overwhelmed out mids and I don't mean tackling necessarily. I've noticed their mids getting early contact with our playing before they even have the ball. So often even if Max does tap it down to Viney, they're knocking him off balance before or as he's getting possession. It's a pre meditated plan that means Viney is rushed into giving an errant handball where another one of our players is under duress. 

Teams might be sharking Max's taps but I think there's more to it. It's almost as if every mid of ours in the centre square is being tagged so the ball can be tracked and the opposition can win the clearance from pressuring us to turn it over. They're setting up so well when this happens that they're able to spread and move the ball quickly while our mids are left stratching their heads saying "wait didn't we win the ball from the tap?" thinking they had forward momentum.

[3183 Dee 2,917]

2 hours ago, DeeZee said:

opposition teams since the 2018 Prelim have various plans to beat Melbourne and it’s usually built around Max Gawn.

They will try and body him heavily, tag him, shark his tap outs or ring around our inside kids to pressure them and stop them getting it out

I was thinking this last night. How is it that our greatest asset is becoming our greatest liability? Most teams don’t have a ruck that can compete with Max, so they just effectively use him as their ruckman. This works for the good teams (Port, Lions) but not so much for the weaker teams. My question would be two-fold:

 

- How do we get around this? Play Max in a varied role?

- Do other teams with superior rucks (Collingwood, West Coast) experience the same issues? I can’t remember seeing this? So, what do they do, that is so different?

I don’t actually have any solutions, but, knowing that there are some tactically astute Demonlanders, would be interested to hear what others think.

[DeePressed 114]

Plan A is to win the contested footy.

Plan B,C,D or whatever is to tinker with certain things still revolving around Plan A.

There is no plan if we lose contested footy, it's all guess work.

Strategy for when they know Gawn will be overly dominant is needed. Too easy for oppo to plan for.

 

[Laughing Goat 308]

Everyone keeps saying 'we are incredibly talented'....really! I don't see it & how do you measure talent! High draft picks, number of games or the amount of stats the players get each week? Maybe we are not as talented as we think.....

Two things astound me.....

1/Why is it that most other clubs can win possession at the stoppage/centre bounce etc & distribute the ball out to the runners who then penetrate the line & impact forward entries? We panic & kick blindly creating on most occasions, turnovers. We have 2 or 3 players that absolutely kill us every week & nothing has changed recently.

2/ Why is Max Gawn kicking? His work around the ground is sensational, no question of that, but for god sake, don't kick especially in defence. Why are we not instructed to have runners like Salem, Hibbard, Petracca, Harmes, Jones or Langdon running past for the hand ball to run & transport the ball 100m. All other clubs ruckmen do this especially Nic Nat & Grundy & even when Grundy does kick, most of the time its safe & short. We need Max tapping the ball to our advantage & taking intercept marks.

The dees need elite ball users not good ball users & that's what we have...'B' grade users. We also need a power forward to take us up the ladder & at this stage I can't see any improvement unless something changes dramatically.....

Goodwin has to go.....forget about plan B, there is no plan A. 

[DeeZee 7,493]

What I am mainly talking about is that he has no counter measures to what’s been going on for a while.

Its too easy to beat Melbourne if you limit Gawns influence and put pressure on the mids.

[Demonland 74,244]

This is the way they want to play. This is the plan A that they probably train for. This does not happen often enough. 

[loges 6,767]

Sides have us worked out but why don't we have them worked out so we can at least turn the game into a dog fight. Surely we put just as much work into them as they put into us

[dee-tox 4,835]

There there seems to be two types of midfields. One, like us is filled with see-ball-get-ball types (Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Petracca, etc). Like bees to a honeypot, we fight hard for first possession but often can't get space or a clean possession and have no one on the outside to give it to. If we do get possession our way forward is often via series of backward handballs or via a hack kick forward.

Then there's the second type, like Brisbane that have a good mix of inside and outside midfielders who are often happy to wait for us to get first possession and then sweat on them rugby-style in congestion to get a turnover. They are then so well structured/positioned that they are able to get clean possession out of the congestion and kick to their forwards before our midfield comes flooding back.

Most of our problems this year come from the midfield.

[DeeZee 7,493]

1 hour ago, dee-tox said:

There there seems to be two types of midfields. One, like us is filled with see-ball-get-ball types (Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Harmes, Petracca, etc). Like bees to a honeypot, we fight hard for first possession but often can't get space or a clean possession and have no one on the outside to give it to. If we do get possession our way forward is often via series of backward handballs or via a hack kick forward.

Then there's the second type, like Brisbane that have a good mix of inside and outside midfielders who are often happy to wait for us to get first possession and then sweat on them rugby-style in congestion to get a turnover. They are then so well structured/positioned that they are able to get clean possession out of the congestion and kick to their forwards before our midfield comes flooding back.

Most of our problems this year come from the midfield.

Exactly, even Port, who had guys like Amon, Gray and Rozee who run and use the ball well on the outside once the ball is stripped from us on the inside.

[Biffen 12,949]

In the words of Mike Tyson ;

"Everybody has a plan until they get pushed in the face".

Nearly everybody.

[layzie 34,514]

Our plan F isn't much chop either. 

[Fork 'em 7,052]

4 hours ago, Demonland said:

This is the way they want to play. This is the plan A that they probably train for. This does not happen often enough. 

With our deplorable skills too much can and does go wrong.
Especially when the opposition turn on the heat.
And the oppostion know it.
i can hear their coaches ....

"Put them under pressure and they'll fork up and turn it over ...... I know it , and you know it."

Edited July 31, 2020 by Fork 'em

[picket fence 18,128]

8 hours ago, DeeZee said:

We don’t seem to have a plan B Incase the opposition is getting on top of us like last night against Port.

opposition teams since the 2018 Prelim have various plans to beat Melbourne and it’s usually built around Max Gawn.

They will try and body him heavily, tag him, shark his tap outs or ring around our inside kids to pressure them and stop them getting it out.

Why not try Maxy  at full forward with Jacko in the ruck and May at centre half forward and TMac at full back.

We need something radical to throw them off and still play to our strengths with Max being a very good Mark one on one

Plan C could be Maxy thumping the ball way out of the centre square but have our mids ready for it ready to run to that point centre , left or right.
Im just tired of seeing games slip away with opposition tactics as clear as day and always being too late in the last quarter to do anything about it.

Lets start with plan A! Worked for a short period of time till we got deep into 2018

Then we got found out and now no plan B, C, D or E

We perennially lurch from disaster to disaster, one match to a season, season by season, decade by decade , Millennium to Infinite.

We are eons away from Premiership if at ever all EVER!