POSTGAME: Rd 04 vs Geelong

[Demons11 7,008]

7 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I was asking someone a question thanks.

I have my own opinion on this.

Hogan has done nothing at Freo and seems a shadow of his former self 

[Demons11 7,008]

8 hours ago, Win4theAges said:

If we can't keep the ball locked in for long periods and are being cut open with slow ball movement in this current forward setup, what's the point in a mobile forward setup? the time has come to bring in Weed.

If we are only playing with 1 key tall (Tmac) 2 small forwards (Pickett and Hunt) 3 hybrid forwards (Vanders/Trac, Hannan and Melk) we need to start clunking marks up top.

We are not providing much in the air at all and its getting mopped up to easily. So sacrificing 1 hybrid forward for a tall makes for a better presents in the Forward line.

Example of today Tmac had to compete with a double team on the wing a few times brought the ball to ground we pounced on it and bombed it into Fritta, Hunt and Kosi easily mopped up. No big body presents after Tmac has been pushed up the ground we are too lightweight atm.

Tmac battled hard today improved performance, but he needs help.

?

[dazzledavey36 54,865]

10 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

Hogan has done nothing at Freo and seems a shadow of his former self 

Injury has played a part in that. Against GC he was back to his best playing a good lead up option around the forward half. Something that's currently non existent at our club..

[Wiseblood 24,637]

25 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Injury has played a part in that. Against GC he was back to his best playing a good lead up option around the forward half. Something that's currently non existent at our club..

Hogan wanted out. Yes, we were probably happy to see it happen in the end based on his off field issues, but we can't do much about it when the bloke was 12 months away from leaving anyway. 

Watts was going nowhere with us. If I'm being honest, he would be doing the same stuff for us right now that he always did when the chips were down and he would be copping it big time from us supporters. 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but losing these two isn't the problem. What we do with the ball is. 

Some will say we are a tall forward short right now, and I'd agree. It's time to see what Weid or Brown can give us inside 50 to support T Mac.

[Redleg 40,899]

Any decent side would have beaten the Cats yesterday. 
Stewart was off early and Atkins was injured early, he had one possession and they had another  injury later, as well as Danger off for most of a quarter. 
We don’t convert opportunities and it is because of the selection of the side, the game plan and the lack of skill of the players. 
Other teams have us worked out and that is why the Cats played that chip game yesterday. 
Name one time when we found a forward leading into space and he was given the ball. 
 We are incapable of maintaining possession of the ball. 
We are a team of hard at it players who lack basic disposal skill. 
With our unbending game plan of bomb it in, we are doomed to more losses than wins. 
The dumb mistakes we make have to be down to Coaching.
The Coach seems unwilling or unable to change. 
I love Viney and Oliver’s attack on the footy but they simply turn it over far too often. Watch the game again and you will see Viney swing into his left and kick it to a pack or nowhere near a teammate. Oliver too often kicks without even looking. He is a shadow of himself in his first year. 
People on here are not against their club if they write what they see, despite some attacking others for not simply showing blind loyalty. 
Any fan watching the last half of the Blues game and yesterday’s game would have to be worried and agree that we play ugly footy that is hard to watch and the footy world seems to agree. 
If we don’t fix up our poor skill, poor game plan and poor selection of the team, we will remain the same.

Edited June 28, 2020 by Redleg

[DistrACTION Jackson 8,728]

I definitely don't think the sky is falling in, as it was our 2nd game back after a long lay-off and under unfortunate circumstances. However, there are some key things the coaches and selectors need to look at.

1. How are we utilising our forwards strengths? Obviously we are really struggling in this area, but I feel a lot of it comes down to questionable coaching instructions. Why aren't we getting Fritsch and McDonald to move more up to the wings and half-forward? Is having 4-5 guys in the 185-188cm range a good idea or should we swap one for a better ground ball player or a key tall? 

2. Why did Brayshaw play 67% of game time? I thought he was one of our better players yesterday. Was fairly clean and kicked two important goals. Please Goodwin get him into the game more. Oliver ran around like a bloke who thinks he is a gun, really needs to get back to his bollocking best.

3. Why aren't we utilising Lever's main attribute? The year before we got him he was probably the second or third best intercept player in the comp behind McGovern and Rance. Why then did we get him and try to alter his role? We need to setup so that he can use these talents and start intercepting a lot more.

4. Why can't we do the basics right? We seem to get the basics wrong time and time again. Players not clearing the ball. Moving the ball slowly forward when we have options and quick when we don't. The coaches can't control this, the players need to be smarter.

[TRIGON 4,783]

8 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Any decent side would have beaten the Cats yesterday. 
Stewart was off early and Atkins was injured early, he had one possession and they had another  injury later, as well as Danger off for most of a quarter. 
We don’t convert opportunities and it is because of the selection of the side, the game plan and the lack of skill of the players. 
Other teams have us worked out and that is why the Cats played that chip game yesterday. 
Name one time when we found a forward leading into space and he was given the ball. 
 We are incapable of maintaining possession of the ball. 
We are a team of hard at it players who lack basic disposal skill. 
With our unbending game plan of bomb it in, we are doomed to more losses than wins. 
The dumb mistakes we make have to be down to Coaching.
The Coach seems unwilling or unable to change. 
I love Viney and Oliver’s attack on the footy but they simply turn it over far too often. Watch the game again and you will see Viney swing into his left and kick it to a pack or nowhere near a teammate. Oliver too often kicks without even looking. He is a shadow of himself in his first year. 
People on here are not against their club if they write what they see, despite some attacking others for not simply showing blind loyalty. 
Any fan watching the last half of the Blues game and yesterday’s game would have to be worried and agree that we play ugly footy that is hard to watch and the footy world seems to agree. 
If we don’t fix up our poor skill, poor game plan and poor selection of the team, we will remain the same.

Cognitive inflexibility in gamblers is primarily present in reward-related decision making.

[titan_uranus 25,013]

3 hours ago, John Demonic said:

I dislike the notion that teams can lose by a few errors, robbing the opposition a right of reply on field if we didn't make them. eg If we'd touched it on the goal line, then Geelong would've just upped the ante on building a lead sooner instead.

1 mistake wasn't the difference at all. The whole match was littered with poor micro-decisions like taking on a tackle when you should give it off. I question whether some of these players are playing the wrong code.

Anyway, These errors all just accumulate over time and amount to gifting the opposition goals against the play that just bury you. It takes a lot more effort off field to coach those out of the game. To just summarize 100 mins of footy to "we lost because of a few defensive errors that cost goals" is just an absolute understatement.

You're right in that pinpointing one error and trying to extrapolate it out to affect the conclusion of an entire match can be unreasonable.

But the issue with us is that we see, weekly, basic fundamental errors being made. IMO, the issue is that it's a pattern of behaviour. We regularly stuff up our attempts to touch the ball on the goal line. We regularly drop marks. We regularly miss shots from directly in front. We regularly take on tacklers and get caught holding it. They are a feature of our game and when I see them week to week, I get concerned.

[Half forward flank 1,022]

1 hour ago, John Demonic said:

How good was it though? Coupled with the perfect set shot, I think it was worth an entire year of waiting. /s

 

Came in from the side, memory of the great Greg Parkes.  That said I would give TMac one more game in hope.

[poita 3,902]

As I expected we lost that game at the selection table. Lockhart, Hibberd, Hannan and Vandenberg did sweet FA between them. It is laughable that Bennell wasn't considered fit enough, but Hannan and Vandenberg both were. We won't win another game until we bring in another tall forward. 

Salem and Melksham were both awful again and should be next to feel the axe. Salem should have been traded two years ago when he had some value - now he has none. I was wrong about Melksham delivering a half-decent game every few weeks - he has been terrible this year.

None of our players want to take responsibility for taking the game on and trying to make things happen. Instead we'd rather go backwards or sideways, rather than taking a shot at goal. Instead of our forwards being able to compete one out, they end up competing one v three by the time the ball arrives. Salem's effort was abysmal, and Tomlinson didn't make any effort to line up the goals either. 

Six goals in a game of football in perfect conditions, thus making seven in our last six quarters. No wonder we sit last on a combined ladder of seasons 2019 and 2020. Goodwin has taken us backwards at a rapid rate, but his job is safe because the board that gave him a ludicrous contract extension is still in charge. Once again I ask, what is one thing that Goodwin did to change the course of this match?

 

[Cyclops 510]

As someone has already said Oliver kicks blindly on most occasions . I would extend that and say that ours mids are not creative. Lack of onfield talk? Insufficient coaching in this area?

Actually I will extend this and say that most players lack creativity.

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

Amazing how a game of footy can leave you frustrated the next morning. Maybe we should just leave Trac deep forward if we continue not to play Weid. The only one that looked likely in beating his opponent one on one when thrust forward for patches in the third. 

Surprised to see Gus only play 67%, thought he was one of our better players, he and Trac worked well together in a couple of centre clearances but in order to give Gus more midfield time, Trac needs to go forward imo especially with this shortened version of AFL. 

Yeah we got close in the end but we always talk about what could’ve been. 

[binman 42,903]

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Hogan wanted out. Yes, we were probably happy to see it happen in the end based on his off field issues, but we can't do much about it when the bloke was 12 months away from leaving anyway. 

Watts was going nowhere with us. If I'm being honest, he would be doing the same stuff for us right now that he always did when the chips were down and he would be copping it big time from us supporters. 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but losing these two isn't the problem. What we do with the ball is. 

 

Agree on Hogan, he wanted to go home.

Watts was a mistake. I said so at the time and say so now. Sure he may not have been as super committed as he might have been and didn't fit the Goodwin robot mould. But teams need different personalities. And good coaches get the best out of players and recognise not everyone can be the same. Arguably that was Phil Jackson's greatest strength. 

Clarkson would have made it work

Going nowhere with us? He didn't need to do anymore than he was doing to be valuable. Just play a role.

People said fritter was a like for like. Please. Time has shown that to be bollocks. And besides it we could have had both - it wasn't either or.

Wattsy's skill set is exactly what we are missing. We are the worst kicking side in the league and we get rid of one of the best in the league. Stupid.

When the chips were down? Name one player in our side who kicks that goal against the pies?

Or one who kicks the set shot against the suns to save us from a ignominious loss?

Or any of his perfectly weighted kicks to a forward?

Or one who has his ability to assess options, to have time and space, to make smart decisions and most criticaly of all to execute, to hit targets.

Tomlinson and Langdon filled an important need. But both are rubbish kicks. Same goes for lever. And I thought may was a better kick.

Bennel is the only elite kick we have drafted or recruited in the last 8 years with Fritter and salem not being far off elite and rivers looking good. That is simply not enough and in my view is the key reasons for our current issues.

In the Roos/Goodwin era we have put way too much emphasis on drafting for grunt not skill, in large part because of their belief in an inside out, contest based game plan. But both have got it badly wrong.

Their game plan is now old hat and with zones and all ground manic pressure now being so effective the ability to hit targets by foot has never been more important. 

And with the need to sometimes play tempo footy and keep possesion by kicking the ball around or the need to tic tac the ball down the ground you need players who can be relied on not to break that chain. 

Yesterday's game was the perfect example of the issue we have created for ourselves. The cats (who were nearly as poor as us it must be said) chipped it around all day, completely controlled the tempo and then made better entries inside 50. We won the contested ball and inside 50s but butchered the ball and wasted so many chances.

Watson kept saying we needed to change angles to give us better looks. The problem is we dont have players who can reliably do that as it takes skill to cross, weight a ball into a pocket of space, hit a lead up player who has someone right on him, kick flat, kick to advantage etc. In the last 10 years the only player who had the ability to reliably execute these skills was Watts. 

How many press conferences do we need to hear goody say we just need to tidy up our forward entries, connect etc etc. Last night, seemingly with no irony, he embellished that by saying when we do fix that problem 'look out'. Really?

Goodwin is in his fourth year as senior coach after being the senior assistant. The problem should have been well fixed by drafting and recruiting the right players.

We should have targeted players like suckling. Instead we focused on inside players with poor foot skills and got rid our best kick and decision maker in Watts.

It was stupid then. And in hindsight it is even more so.

Edited June 28, 2020 by binman

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Amazing how a game of footy can leave you frustrated the next morning. Maybe we should just leave Trac deep forward if we continue not to play Weid. The only one that looked likely in beating his opponent one on one when thrust forward for patches in the third. 

Surprised to see Gus only play 67%, thought he was one of our better players, he and Trac worked well together in a couple of centre clearances but in order to give Gus more midfield time, Trac needs to go forward imo especially with this shortened version of AFL. 

Yeah we got close in the end but we always talk about what could’ve been. 

We are 1-1 since the restart.  It could so easily be 0-2... but then it could very easily have been 2-0 as well.  At least we aren't getting smashed like others are.

[binman 42,903]

I just read your post red. Great minds and all that.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, binman said:

Watts was a mistake.

I'll respectfully disagree on that one, bin.

I won't argue that his skill set is what we are missing.  He was a great kick of the footy and he was capable of being a game changer for us on occassion.

However, we all know that he could be laconic, bordering on the lazy at times, and when things got tough, he rarely got going.  Think back to his time at the club and he would go missing more than he would make an impact, and in the games where we needed him most, he wouldn't do a lot and most would be in here berating his performance for hours on end.

Moving on Watts is not a mistake and nor is it the problem.  He wouldn't make a lick of difference to our side right now.

And of course Clarkson might have made it work... but the bloke is at Hawthorn.  Not Melbourne.  And he is the greatest coach of the modern era.  

It wasn't going to work at Melbourne. 

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

7 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

We are 1-1 since the restart.  It could so easily be 0-2... but then it could very easily have been 2-0 as well.  At least we aren't getting smashed like others are.

Yes Wise, it’s not all doom and gloom here, I thought we played poorly and funnily enough we still had a chance to win the game when it looked lost. That’s the frustrating part for me, if we can get consistency for an entire game we will be alright. 

[Redleg 40,899]

They beat us with two players effectively out of the whole game and even Danger off for nearly a quarter.

Getting close is not the issue here and those who think we did ok, are sadly mistaken IMO..

Edited June 29, 2020 by Redleg

[Fat Tony 5,228]

12 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

They're not "very good", as @Fat Tony suggests, but they're not a terrible side. They seem to me to be mid-table and a clear chance of finals.

They belted Hawthorn, who are undefeated outside of that match. Yes they lost to Carlton, but Carlton have shown signs of improvement (we played them into form).

We did a few things right today to keep them from getting the ball into their forward half and from scoring. The way we defended the MCG today was not as bad as we saw in many of our 2019 losses.

Cats finished top of the ladder in the home and away last season and missed the finals only twice since 2003.

[Fat Tony 5,228]

A real positive was Pickett's speed, balance and skill. Every game he has played he has looked better and better. As painful as every loss is given North have our pick this year, we have got a beauty.

[Demon3 2,541]

My concerns with this team are plenty.. but Max wa steh only player that stood up and got us going yesterday, which is great, great captains do that.. but he wa sone out. Although i though May and Lever and Hibbo were really good, in fact our defence held up remarkbly well. I blame our midefield again.. they are such front runners.. it is very frustrating.. the anmount of free space their mids got on rebound contributed to the match being a stinker.. i watched countless times as players ran past Oliver, Viney, Trac to get on the end of the ball.

Its something that has to change a mindset.. when its not on our terms then its a disaster. Also Melk is downright selfish, Fritsch thinks he is Wayne Carey and can wrestle his opponent, AVB was so far off teh pace, strange selection, Hannan was good first up and we need a secong big. Brown must play, he leads at teh ball.. only him and Hunt do it.

Positive we did not get smashed and should have won, negative is we didnt and not alot has changed when it comes to be agile in games to change the course of teh match.

Also how we dont have a fwd coach is shocking!

[rolling fog 1,207]

9 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

Salem appears to have taken a few backward steps since the back end of 2019 imv.  No spark, flat footed far too often and kicking lacks penetration.

Off the mark he's turned into a tortoise.  Was never a big burst player but gee he just looks to have lost half a yard on top if that's possible.

He might come out and put in a blinder next week and i'll look like a goose but his recent form isn't great.

Couldn't agree more RN.

[binman 42,903]

18 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

I'll respectfully disagree on that one, bin.

I won't argue that his skill set is what we are missing.  He was a great kick of the footy and he was capable of being a game changer for us on occassion.

However, we all know that he could be laconic, bordering on the lazy at times, and when things got tough, he rarely got going.  Think back to his time at the club and he would go missing more than he would make an impact, and in the games where we needed him most, he wouldn't do a lot and most would be in here berating his performance for hours on end.

Moving on Watts is not a mistake and nor is it the problem.  He wouldn't make a lick of difference to our side right now.

And of course Clarkson might have made it work... but the bloke is at Hawthorn.  Not Melbourne.  And he is the greatest coach of the modern era.  

It wasn't going to work at Melbourne. 

All fair and reasonable points wise, with possible exception of him not making a lick of difference to our side right now.

What I wouldn't give to have have has watts plsy in all 3 games this year and actually hit a target going inside 50. Remember he led goal assists in almost every year he played with us. Hogan loved him.

But I understand the cultural reasons for goody trading him. Perhaps the real issue is that he has not replaced what we lost in terms of skills. The opposite in fact. Bennell is the only player we have drafted or recruited that has his foot skills and he is a gamble. Ryan, Martin , hill, jetta, suckling, are the sort of players we should have moved heaven and earth to get. 

[dazzledavey36 54,865]

3 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

A real positive was Pickett's speed, balance and skill. Every game he has played he has looked better and better. As painful as every loss is given North have our pick this year, we have got a beauty.

Pickett and Rivers for me.

Yes Rivers made some mistakes but didn't drop his head and continued to take the game on.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

Pickett and Rivers for me.

Yes Rivers made some mistakes but didn't drop his head and continued to take the game on.

Two terrific selections from our recruiters at the moment.

I love that Rivers is a natural back flanker - he knows when to run and knows when to defend.