12 hours ago, McQueen said:

Brayshaw’s performance is directly linked to the current game plan and team rules. 
He’s a good footballer being wasted in another flawed campaign. 

Spot on Steve, he has been played as a half forward numerous times in the past and he is poor in that position. Play him as a mid it’s that simple. This playing people out of their natural positions is killing several players. 

1 hour ago, binman said:

If true that is an indictment on Brayshaw.

A skilled, talented professional footballer - a 2nd draft pick no less - should be able to play to a high level even if the game plan, team rules and even the position they are played in don't 'suit' them.

Sure they may not have optimal output in those scenarios but it speaks of a lack of mental strength and rubbish attitude if they can't  - or worse, won't perform to an acceptable level. Or alternatively they are one dimensional and simply not that good.

The second best junior in the country should be able to play top footy wherever he plays and whatever the team system or rules are.

That’s all well and good Binman but some plays have a set of skills that work well in some positions and not in others. Not all players can just play in any position in fact not many can. Our FD seem to be trying to make players fit a game plan that struggles to work rather than have a game plan that the players can implement. Why after four years are we still bombing it  into the forward line?

1 hour ago, binman said:

If true that is an indictment on Brayshaw.

A skilled, talented professional footballer - a 2nd draft pick no less - should be able to play to a high level even if the game plan, team rules and even the position they are played in don't 'suit' them.

Sure they may not have optimal output in those scenarios but it speaks of a lack of mental strength and rubbish attitude if they can't  - or worse, won't perform to an acceptable level. Or alternatively they are one dimensional and simply not that good.

The second best junior in the country should be able to play top footy wherever he plays and whatever the team system or rules are.

Maybe I should’ve expanded on what I meant by Brayshaw is ‘affected’ by not only his, but other teammates roles and and following of team rules. 
The only reason we looked good in the first quarter is because Carlton were asleep at the wheel.

Maybe I’m missing something and it’s all going to click one day but  Atm Foodwin has his best opportunity with a full list to find the right ingredients to execute the game plan. 
If that’s not achievable, then his game plan sucks or the players aren’t that good and I personally think the cattle aren’t the problem. 

39 minutes ago, old dee said:

That’s all well and good Binman but some plays have a set of skills that work well in some positions and not in others. Not all players can just play in any position in fact not many can. Our FD seem to be trying to make players fit a game plan that struggles to work rather than have a game plan that the players can implement. Why after four years are we still bombing it  into the forward line?

For pete's sake they're not asking him to play full back or in the ruck. He is still spending some time in the middle. And yes that is where he plays his best footy.

But as result of (what i think has been) too much emphasis on drafting contested ball winners at the expense of skilled outside players (why oh why did we not go after suckling when he was on the market?) we have Viney, Oliver, Brayshaw and now Tracc all fighting for the same position.

So he has to perform in another position at times? Ones that don't perfectly suit his skill set. Big deal. Suck it up and do what you're paid good coin to do. Play good footy

18 minutes ago, McQueen said:

Maybe I should’ve expanded on what I meant by Brayshaw is ‘affected’ by not only his, but other teammates roles and and following of team rules. 
The only reason we looked good in the first quarter is because Carlton were asleep at the wheel.

Maybe I’m missing something and it’s all going to click one day but  Atm Foodwin has his best opportunity with a full list to find the right ingredients to execute the game plan. 
If that’s not achievable, then his game plan sucks or the players aren’t that good and I personally think the cattle aren’t the problem. 

Fair enough. Leaving aside the goody discussion i worry many of the players simply are not that good. 

Team balance. Get tough and professional  Pick either Brayshaw or Viney but not both. Maybe even recruit a rover to the best ruck in the comp.

This thread is stupid because:

1) Brayshaw was excellent with his pressure and played a good solid game on Saturday.

2) We are stacked with inside midfielders, who are also our best players, so players like Brayshaw, Petracca and Harmes need to be able to play secondary positions.

2 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

This thread is stupid because:

1) Brayshaw was excellent with his pressure and played a good solid game on Saturday.

2) We are stacked with inside midfielders, who are also our best players, so players like Brayshaw, Petracca and Harmes need to be able to play secondary positions.

Thankfully Petracca is a solid gold forward and Harmes uses the footy well (but I want him in the middle as much as possible). Brayshaw on the other hand isn't overly quick or skilful by foot, which leaves him exposed at half back. I think he's got so much to offer but Goodwin needs to find the right balance.

1 hour ago, binman said:

Fair enough. Leaving aside the goody discussion i worry many of the players simply are not that good. 

It’s that age old debate isn’t it but I see North, St Kilda, Suns seemingly improving rather than going backwards. 

17 minutes ago, McQueen said:

It’s that age old debate isn’t it but I see North, St Kilda, Suns seemingly improving rather than going backwards. 

I watched the suns and saints game. Jeez both clubs have some brilliant field kicks. More than us.

18 minutes ago, binman said:

I watched the suns and saints game. Jeez both clubs have some brilliant field kicks. More than us.

Yes, and you dont watch us to see a good game of footy skills. That is left for other teams and viewing. If it wasnt for the fact I get attached as soon as I see the red and blue jumpers....

22 minutes ago, binman said:

I watched the suns and saints game. Jeez both clubs have some brilliant field kicks. More than us.

That Rivers play where he streamed off half back and hit an isolated leading target was equal parts beautiful and confusing.

It's not something we have seen in 18 months

38 minutes ago, McQueen said:

It’s that age old debate isn’t it but I see North, St Kilda, Suns seemingly improving rather than going backwards. 

I suppose it looks like that after the weekends football. But those clubs you mentioned like us have been dreadfully inconsistent the last few seasons. They bob up for a big win then get belted a week later. We shouldn't be in the same boat but we are.

 

2 minutes ago, Half forward flank said:

Yes, and you dont watch us to see a good game of footy skills. That is left for other teams and viewing. If it wasnt for the fact I get attached as soon as I see the red and blue jumpers....

Strangely enough I thought our skills weren't too bad on the weekend. I don't remember seeing as many eye rolling/groaning dumb mistakes that we have seen so often with this team. We made some bad decisions especially moving forward in the second half. But thats more due to decision making/structures. 

I am also one who thought Brayshaw played an ok game. Didn't star, some sloppy ball movement but overall seemed to play his role putting pressure on the opposition and was involved with some nice link up play.

If you're looking at stats it was a low disposal game overall so I wouldn't read too much into him lacking there. He had an impact on the game. He looks lethargic yes but he is also one of a few players that don't panic with the ball and goes hard every time IMO.

3 hours ago, binman said:

For pete's sake they're not asking him to play full back or in the ruck. He is still spending some time in the middle. And yes that is where he plays his best footy.

But as result of (what i think has been) too much emphasis on drafting contested ball winners at the expense of skilled outside players (why oh why did we not go after suckling when he was on the market?) we have Viney, Oliver, Brayshaw and now Tracc all fighting for the same position.

So he has to perform in another position at times? Ones that don't perfectly suit his skill set. Big deal. Suck it up and do what you're paid good coin to do. Play good footy

Then the only alternative I see is to trade him for what we need because at present he is wasted  as a Wing/  HFF . If we have too many of the one sort trade one out.

Edited June 15, 20204 yr by old dee

3 hours ago, binman said:

Fair enough. Leaving aside the goody discussion i worry many of the players simply are not that good. 

On this we are in total agreement Binman. Like most supporters tend to over rated their players.

Quite a few have average skills, our inability to hit targets kills us week in week out.

Then we have key position players like Tmac he is a third level KPF IMO, when he was geeting the second or third defender he was ok.

Now everyone is awake to him and he gets the first defender. Never though I would say this but please put the Weid back in the team.

He will come good. Just needs to find his niche in our midfield. But he can adjust. Ideally we could boost his value before years end and move him on for a first round pick.

I'll judge him when they put him back in an inside mid role where he belongs.

He isn't an outside player, and to force him to be one is just setting him up to fail. It's like asking Steven May to win centre clearances and wondering why he's not playing as well as he did at FB. 

3 hours ago, Fat Tony said:

This thread is stupid because:

1) Brayshaw was excellent with his pressure and played a good solid game on Saturday.

2) We are stacked with inside midfielders, who are also our best players, so players like Brayshaw, Petracca and Harmes need to be able to play secondary positions.

I don't agree with the first point so much, but I do agree with the second.

IMO priority number 1 needs to be the reintroduction of Harmes into the midfield as a tagger. He was so good in that role in 2018, and he's so ineffectual in the backline at the moment.

One of the problems of doing that is it reduces the amount of time we can have Oliver, Viney and Brayshaw in the middle. So, as you say, we need to be able to put those players in other spots on the ground and they need to be able to contribute there.

Oliver can go forward, he's done that well (IMO an underrated part of his game). I'd increase Oliver's time spent in the forward line to give Harmes more room in the middle. We'll lose out a bit on not having Oliver in the stoppages but we can cope.

Viney and Brayshaw are more problematic. Neither of them look particularly good anywhere other than in the guts. I think Brayshaw could play Harmes' half-back role just as well as Harmes, or Jones half-forward role just as well as Jones, so I'd try that a bit. 

Brayshaw has played his best footy on the ball. However, he has other talents that can make him useful elsewhere. Despite his best footy being as an inside mid can anybody hand on heart say he is better or more consistent than Oliver or Viney?Given the nature of the game and our bevy of inside mids he needs to learn to play other positions and be effective. If he was consistently our best inside mid the position would be his. 

21 hours ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

unfortunately it's not something that makes me happy

i completely understand why we signed him up but north were prepared to offer him big coin so we could've got a decent trade for him at the time

all his 'value' has diminished as @DeeSpencer said

i really thought after his first year that he was going to be a ripper for us off half-back more than thru the midfield, but his disposal has somehow got worse since then and his lack of accountability defensively is atrocious

This reply is spot on.......✅

The 666 rules seems to have had a negartive impact on Gus too......

 

Gus has the talent, he needs to be played in a role he can excel at. He played his best footy when Viney was out for an extended period of time. Coincidentally we also played our best footy with Gus on ball and Viney out. With Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Petracca, Harmes all playing inside, it's the old adage too many cooks spoil the broth. We've just got too many inside midfielders and need to offload one for team balance.

Personally, I'd keep Oliver and Petracca. Oliver is the best, and Petracca is the most dynamic and versatile. I'd keep Gus ahead of Viney, but one of those two are tradable to improve our team IMO. I'll get shot down for suggesting it, but it's hard to ignore the facts of our performance since 2018.

9 minutes ago, Lord Travis said:

Gus has the talent, he needs to be played in a role he can excel at. He played his best footy when Viney was out for an extended period of time. Coincidentally we also played our best footy with Gus on ball and Viney out. With Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, Petracca, Harmes all playing inside, it's the old adage too many cooks spoil the broth. We've just got too many inside midfielders and need to offload one for team balance.

Personally, I'd keep Oliver and Petracca. Oliver is the best, and Petracca is the most dynamic and versatile. I'd keep Gus ahead of Viney, but one of those two are tradable to improve our team IMO. I'll get shot down for suggesting it, but it's hard to ignore the facts of our performance since 2018.

viney is a free agent at the end of this season

given that his teammates don't want him as their leader, he may yet choose to walk to a better offer

Round two just completed with a win, yet we have posters wanting to lynch the coach, swap one of our best for a 1st round pick, denigrate our VC with claims that he is not wanted as a leader, shoot our one true warrior for being 'past it' and drop a bloke who kicked 3 of our 7 goals. The cumulative effect is to paint a picture of a bunch of headless chooks!

What happened to the player that once managed a 37 possession/3 goal game in 2018?

How does someone go from potential stardom to an average plodder?

Is he being played out of position, is he being poorly coached or did he peak as a player way before his prime years.