2 minutes ago, Macca said:

Barassi brought in Barry Davis at North Melbourne in the early 70's and immediately made him captain.  The rest is history.

Free agency is now entering its 8th off-season in the AFL so every club (including ours) has had the chance to bring in A grade experienced talent.  But to do so takes a lot of forward thinking not so much as opportunistic thinking. 

Davis went to North (along with Rantall & Wade) under the short-lived 10 year rule.  We picked up Ditterich under the same rule.  So,  in effect,  free agency has just replaced the old model.

Yet he we are with a dearth of experienced talent at the club.  Jones & Jetta are the only real veterans but both have questionable future's.  Injury is a factor with Jetta whilst Jones is near the end.

Older A grade players are often those who are also the leaders at a club.  We don't have them and haven't had them for over a decade. 

I see the lack of a role model as a cascading issue. 

Loved Green, a very good player but he wasn't a leader.  Grimes/Trengove worked hard had good footy IQ but lacked a leadership role model to learn from or senior players to support them.  Jones and Viney lack their smarts and haven't had a leader as a role model either.  TMac and a few others have some smarts but again haven't had a role model. 

Its a catch-22.  Not sure how we break it. 

10 hours ago, Glenn Molloy said:

When I saw the headline, I thought "finally one of the coaches has come out and admitted that we don't have any outside runners!".  And then I see that it's the "no runners" rule?  Please!

Apparently Glenn we have neither!

10 hours ago, Mach5 said:

Funnily enough I was listening to that podcast just a couple of hours ago.

It’s an interesting take-away to conclude that he was blaming our failed season on the lack of runners. Rawling went to pains to point out that it’s a lot of different things, and detailed a few of them. To pick one in isolation like this is the media’s go, but it must have been a slow news day for the author.

Did he mention the Dud coach per chance?

54 minutes ago, monoccular said:

 

Manifestly we need to engage a focus group of committed stakeholders  to progress ideas then set up workshops to actively implement the new direction  consistent with these new values as conveyed by our updated modern  mission statement! 

Yes Minister!

18 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I see the lack of a role model as a cascading issue. 

Loved Green, a very good player but he wasn't a leader.  Grimes/Trengove worked hard had good footy IQ but lacked a leadership role model to learn from or senior players to support them.  Jones and Viney lack their smarts and haven't had a leader as a role model either.  TMac and a few others have some smarts but again haven't had a role model. 

Its a catch-22.  Not sure how we break it. 

If you can't develop A grade leaders then you import them.  Too much emphasis on unproven high school age kids.  Way too much

The model we've often adhered to is flawed.  It's a hit and hope based on hype (and bs)

Acquiring Lever & May was a step in the right direction but we need to continue on that course.  Recruitment can take many forms which includes drafting three or four 18 year old's every season.  But 18 year old draftees are often looked upon as messiah's.  Which again,  is the wrong type of thinking

We need to recruit players of the calibre of Fyfe,  Sloane,  Martin & Dangerfield.  Not easy but do-able if we're serious.

@FlashInThePan and @Mach5 made good points across the board re: this issue.  

It was just one part of why the season went down the toilet so quickly, but I feel this was an area that probably affected us more in the second half of the season than the first.

I do agree that our on field leaders have been disappointing and that changes need to be made in this area.  I think Gawn stands out as someone who not only wants to be a leader, but consistently exhibits these behaviours for others around him.  Lever and May are others who have the potential to do this, but one has dealt with injury and the other came to the club not fit enough so they probably need full seasons under their belts to take that opportunity.

3 minutes ago, Macca said:

If you can't develop A grade leaders then you import them.  Too much emphasis on unproven high school age kids.  Way too much

The model we've often adhered to is flawed.  It's a hit and hope based on hype (and bs)

Acquiring Lever & May was a step in the right direction but we need to continue on that course.  Recruitment can take many forms which includes drafting three or four 18 year old's every season.  But 18 year old draftees are often looked upon as messiah's.  Which again,  is the wrong type of thinking

We need to recruit players of the calibre of Fyfe,  Sloane,  Martin & Dangerfield.  Not easy but do-able if we're serious.

Agreed on both bolded points above. 

Carlton did it with Judd.  He didn't give them on-field success but he taught a young side the behaviours needed for success and he had the IQ to deliver the game plan on field (didn't need runners).  He also had personal and team success to immediately earn their respect.  He gave them an excellent role model and I'm sure Cripps learnt a lot in the few years they had together.

Unfortunately Cross, Vince and Lewis weren't with us long enough to become the role models.  Some hope that Lever or May will be our leaders.  But they need to bed-down their game and roles in the team.  Unfortunately injuries have stopped them both doing that. 

Given it is the current coaches and administration that appointed a very young Viney as co-captain and who are showing no signs of filling the leadership void, I'm not optimistic of importing the person we need.

Max is our best bet but given he has been on field all year and performed magnificently he hasn't been able to help overcome the problem of not having runners.

14 hours ago, Damo said:

I thought I would see Nat Jones handing in his captaincy by now. That would be leadership.

In which case, he should immediately have his Captaincy reinstated!

12 hours ago, KingDingAling said:

If fit, Lever should be our captain. He is a wise head, comes across as very decisive, and is a natural leader. He would make a great captain.

Max is the obvious choice......lets get back to tradition, one captain! T Mac for me should be vice captain & has shown maturity both on & off the field & is well liked.

Lever needs to earn his stripes & needs to focus more on playing consistent regular footy.

Plonking the captaincy on Gawn isn't necessarily the answer either.  We actually need 7 or 8 real leaders who are also automatic inclusions in the team because of their talent levels.  In an ideal world. 

So we are a fair way off.

There are players like Oliver & Brayshaw but both are too young.  Lever maybe but he needs to stay fit and it's the same story with May. Maybe T-Mac but he often can't adhere to basic principles as a forward

 And leadership is not berating your teammates out on the field in an innecessary manner.  In actual fact,  those 2 incidents we saw this season shows up our lack of true leadership.

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Agreed on both bolded points above. 

Carlton did it with Judd.  He didn't give them on-field success but he taught a young side the behaviours needed for success and he had the IQ to deliver the game plan on field (didn't need runners).  He also had personal and team success to immediately earn their respect.  He gave them an excellent role model and I'm sure Cripps learnt a lot in the few years they had together.

Unfortunately Cross, Vince and Lewis weren't with us long enough to become the role models.  Some hope that Lever or May will be our leaders.  But they need to bed-down their game and roles in the team.  Unfortunately injuries have stopped them both doing that. 

Given it is the current coaches and administration that appointed a very young Viney as co-captain and who are showing no signs of filling the leadership void, I'm not optimistic of importing the person we need.

Max is our best bet but given he has been on field all year and performed magnificently he hasn't been able to help overcome the problem of not having runners.

Judd did give Carlton on field success ... finals

Just not a GF victory but that was always a tall order from unrealistic types anyway

As if 1 player was ever going to make Carlton a premiership hope.  Again,  the messiah thinking at play again.

But Carlton made the right move by recruiting Judd.  They just needed 4 or 5 more Judd types (which is easier said than done of course)

Edited September 11, 20195 yr by Macca

37 minutes ago, Macca said:

Judd did give Carlton on field success ... finals

Just not a GF victory but that was always a tall order from unrealistic types anyway

As if 1 player was ever going to make Carlton a prsmiership hope.  Again,  the messiah thinking at play again.

All the benefits Judd brought evaporated 2 seconds after he retired.

It's cultural. One import only gives it a quick coat of varnish. Looks great but if the wood underneath is full of worm holes ...

16 hours ago, Kelpien said:

This is an indictment on our leaders and or coaching staff to use the players rotating through to pass on messages. 

Agree with this comment  above by Kelpien but Geez Jade - tell us something we don't know.

Was obvious for all to see this year.

1 hour ago, Mazer Rackham said:

All the benefits Judd brought evaporated 2 seconds after he retired.

It's cultural. One import only gives it a quick coat of varnish. Looks great but if the wood underneath is full of worm holes ...

If Judd had have come to Melbourne instead of Carlton we might have played finals over being absolute crud

I'll take finals (however short-lived) over crud any day of the week.

In that time that Carlton became relevant we were completely irrelevant.

Cultural issues ... look no further than your own team Rack-em.

7 minutes ago, Macca said:

Cultural issues ... look no further than your own team Rack-em.

That's who I was talking about with my last sentence.

9 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

That's who I was talking about with my last sentence.

I didn't read it that nor might anyone else

It looked like you were quite clearly talking about Carlton.  You didn't mention Melbourne at all

Too quick with the whole Judd/Carlton supporter-hat-on supporter-speak. 

 

3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I see the lack of a role model as a cascading issue. 

Loved Green, a very good player but he wasn't a leader.  Grimes/Trengove worked hard had good footy IQ but lacked a leadership role model to learn from or senior players to support them.  Jones and Viney lack their smarts and haven't had a leader as a role model either.  TMac and a few others have some smarts but again haven't had a role model. 

Its a catch-22.  Not sure how we break it. 

Macca and yourself have covered this nicely to some extent below.

3 hours ago, Macca said:

If you can't develop A grade leaders then you import them.  Too much emphasis on unproven high school age kids.  Way too much

The model we've often adhered to is flawed.  It's a hit and hope based on hype (and bs)

Acquiring Lever & May was a step in the right direction but we need to continue on that course.  Recruitment can take many forms which includes drafting three or four 18 year old's every season.  But 18 year old draftees are often looked upon as messiah's.  Which again,  is the wrong type of thinking

We need to recruit players of the calibre of Fyfe,  Sloane,  Martin & Dangerfield.  Not easy but do-able if we're serious.

Agree with the first part but Roos is no longer here.  We wont be getting A graders (multiple or probably even one under Goodwin).

3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Agreed on both bolded points above. 

Carlton did it with Judd.  He didn't give them on-field success but he taught a young side the behaviours needed for success and he had the IQ to deliver the game plan on field (didn't need runners).  He also had personal and team success to immediately earn their respect.  He gave them an excellent role model and I'm sure Cripps learnt a lot in the few years they had together.

Unfortunately Cross, Vince and Lewis weren't with us long enough to become the role models.  Some hope that Lever or May will be our leaders.  But they need to bed-down their game and roles in the team.

This is the answer but the likes of those five need to come into the team plus two to three more over the period of a few seasons and play 'together' for at least the next 5 or so to make a difference and change the culture permanently.

Roos was on the right track.  He just never got them all in at once or enough of them, to make a permanent change to the culture.

Import B+ graders (wont get better under Goodwin) from clubs with ongoing success based culture until we get to base camp.  Base camp = successive and successful finals appearances (two or three) aka Geelong/Hawks/Tigers/Pies/Eagles.

Only recruit mature age players still in their prime (24ish to 27ish) B plus from known success based clubs where you know the disciplines/ structures / professionalism and work ethic is already built in.  Provided they bring what we need, including AFL level kicking standards as a base minimum and are filling a required role.

Once you hit base camp, with present coach or other (i suspect we will need other eg; Lyon or similar respected coach with runs on the board), you then top up with occasional A grader and fill the bottom rungs with clever drafting / strong development to take us to the summit with a mix of A / B plus graders and a few talented rookies.

Two of those A graders should be internal IF still there ie;  Big M & Clarry (with some adjustments and being well over his two shoulder opps from last season).

Edited September 11, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Agreed on both bolded points above. 

Carlton did it with Judd.  He didn't give them on-field success but he taught a young side the behaviours needed for success and he had the IQ to deliver the game plan on field (didn't need runners).  He also had personal and team success to immediately earn their respect.  He gave them an excellent role model and I'm sure Cripps learnt a lot in the few years they had together.

Unfortunately Cross, Vince and Lewis weren't with us long enough to become the role models.  Some hope that Lever or May will be our leaders.  But they need to bed-down their game and roles in the team.  Unfortunately injuries have stopped them both doing that. 

Given it is the current coaches and administration that appointed a very young Viney as co-captain and who are showing no signs of filling the leadership void, I'm not optimistic of importing the person we need.

Max is our best bet but given he has been on field all year and performed magnificently he hasn't been able to help overcome the problem of not having runners.

I'm not sure I agree with you. Judd was a superstar player but I'm not convinced he was a particularly good leader. That's not intended to be a criticism of Judd as a person. Some people are leaders, and some just aren't. And that's OK.

 

17 hours ago, Lord Nev said:

Think a lot of us thought it might have been a factor, but geez when a former assistant coach says you're lacking leadership it's a bit of a (correct IMO) whack on the directional abilities of the leaders we had out there this year.

Rawlings, who this week accepted a new job at North Melbourne, said a lack of on-field leadership left the Dees exposed when coaches couldn't get a message out.

"The runner thing absolutely killed us, as a young group," Rawlings said on RSN radio.

"The AFL, I'm sure, didn't do it to discriminate against younger lists but we were quite immature across the ground at Melbourne, (there were) some leaders at certain parts but overall quite inexperienced, so the runner thing really kills you."

AFL Daily: Runner crackdown cost Demons

 

Love the post-mortems and re-writing history.

Fact is pure and simple is: 1. we built a list that lacked outside speed, and yet recruited guys like Lewis and later Preuss who are essentially dinosaurs with their movement.  Yet we pass on Saad and others.  Roos finally questioned why we would go after Tomlinson WHEN WE LACKED OUTSIDE SPEED.

2. The smalls that we have recruited are absolute lightweights that can't stick a tackle and are easy to tackle.  How Spargo got the gig ahead of Garlett in the latter part of 2018 is still beyond me.

 

Even in the great 2018 year, a few teams (eg. St. Kilda) exposed us badly for pace.  We were lucky coming up against the slowest teams in the comp in finals in Haw and Geel circa 2018.

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

 

Agree with the first part but Roos is no longer here.  We wont be getting A graders (multiple or probably even one under Goodwin).

Well you can't say that for sure Rusty

Despite my views on what has happened previously I still believe that all things are possible with regards to recruiting.

23 minutes ago, Macca said:

Well you can't say that for sure Rusty

Despite my views on what has happened previously I still believe that all things are possible with regards to recruiting.

Bar selling the farm in another 'Lever' type deal i'm happy to disagree on that one Macca.  Under a different regime with a recognised respected coach after a few years of playing finals (and success in at least one of those appearances)...sure.

At this stage we need to replace about eight to twelve on the current list over the next few years and there's no way we will be able to replace with imported A graders.  Even clubs at the top would struggle doing so with that sort of clean out.

Need to be realistic and build a camp first, then top up later with the odd A graders where posible.  Alot more likely if we can work our way up the ladder and become a half decent destination club.  No rediculous sell out required on the trades either.

Edited September 11, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

42 minutes ago, Rusty Nails said:

Bar selling the farm in another 'Lever' type deal i'm happy to disagree on that one Macca.  Under a different regime with a recognised respected coach after a few years of playing finals (and success in at least one of those appearances)...sure.

At this stage we need to replace about eight to twelve on the current list over the next few years and there's no way we will be able to replace with imported A graders.  Even clubs at the top would struggle doing so with that sort of clean out.

Need to be realistic and build a camp first, then top up later with the odd A graders where posible.  Alot more likely if we can work our way up the ladder and become a half decent destination club.  No rediculous sell out required on the trades either.

See I don't believe we sold the farm for Lever - at all RN

My view of possible drafting results isn't ever overly opttmistic though.

Time might tell us that the Lever trade was a bargain.  Watch this space

And we all view footy differently. 

Edited September 11, 20195 yr by Macca

1 hour ago, TGR said:

Love the post-mortems and re-writing history.

Fact is pure and simple is: 1. we built a list that lacked outside speed, and yet recruited guys like Lewis and later Preuss who are essentially dinosaurs with their movement.  Yet we pass on Saad and others.  Roos finally questioned why we would go after Tomlinson WHEN WE LACKED OUTSIDE SPEED.

2. The smalls that we have recruited are absolute lightweights that can't stick a tackle and are easy to tackle.  How Spargo got the gig ahead of Garlett in the latter part of 2018 is still beyond me.

Even in the great 2018 year, a few teams (eg. St. Kilda) exposed us badly for pace.  We were lucky coming up against the slowest teams in the comp in finals in Haw and Geel circa 2018.

 

 

Call it that if you wish, but I did raise this (not on here) early in the season as a possible contributing factor for our poor form, but it was generally dismissed due to not being a significant enough factor, including by myself.

In the end, I believe 2019 has been a case of death-by-a-thousand-cuts. No singular reason, but a combination of many factors. And if you keep doing the right things, and work hard enough for long enough, the wheel will turn.

7 hours ago, Kent said:

Did he mention the Dud coach per chance?

He did in fact mention the coach - in glowing terms.

Well well well. Color me shocked.

No on field leadership. Complete shambles in the coaching ranks,

Is it any surprise the Dees finished 17th.

And there'll still be some muppets saying it was all pre-season injuries