On 16/07/2019 at 02:14, Lord Nev said:

He's definitely got a bit of his 'burst' back. Have noticed he's more able to break away from congestion lately.

Perhaps that burst is what is affecting delivery. Forwards structure for a short release and instead have a burst kick sail over their heads.

  On 16/07/2019 at 02:06, Ouch! said:

Posted on a different thread about this same Data fromt he AFL site.... interesting that the move to half back has seen Nathan Jones actually become the most effective kick (using this same stat) in the team for those players who have kicked more than 100 times this season. That's ahead of Salem and Fritsch who we all know have good skills.

I know that Viney and Clarry both play inside mid and they typically throw the ball onto their boot and that impacts this stat somewhat, but they need to work on executing kicks better under pressure, and often they seem to have more time than they realise...

My concern is his poor kicking when not under pressure. The under-pressure kicks are somewhat excusable if they fail to hit a target; the kicks when not under pressure are not.

  On 16/07/2019 at 03:29, Lord Nev said:

As far as I've heard we're into Langdon in a big way, also keen on Hill but doesn't seem as likely. Obviously we'd all prefer some genuine pacy wingers who are fantastic kicks, but I guess you have to settle for what's realistically available at some stage.

I'd look at Harley Bennell as well, late pick or rookie spot and wouldn't cost too much. 

  On 16/07/2019 at 03:41, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

My concern is his poor kicking when not under pressure. The under-pressure kicks are somewhat excusable if they fail to hit a target; the kicks when not under pressure are not.

I agree. From stoppages it's more on the coaches and forwards to create a structure that sees a bombed or hacked kick contested. 

One of the worst errors we make at the moment is we pass up simple short kicks on slow plays that would get an easy 15-20m of field position AND worst of all we go long down the line not to talls advantage. Whether it's boundary side or more corridor if we're going long to Gawn or Preuss (or other tall) they have to be in position for that kick. Nothing annoys me more than the bomb that lands 15m from Gawn for no good reason and Viney is one who does it a lot.

  On 16/07/2019 at 03:35, Lucifer's Hero said:

Viney was a 'captains call' by Goodwin and if ircc he didn't consult the players, advise the existing captain and don't think he consulted the CEO or the Board. 

Viney will be a capt/co-capt for as long as his father and Goodwin are at the club.  Todd and Simon are very good mates.  Afterall, Todd recommended Simon for coach.  And they are good mates with Mahoney. 

So any impetus for change needs to come from someone else which I just don't see happening. 

A real leader as co-capt is the best we can hope for.  Let Viney do his 'beast' thing, retain the title but someone else with an IQ does the footy thinking and media parts.

Yep, there's a whole other thread that could be filled with the very current 'talk' going around about 'Goodwin's Boys'...

 

  On 16/07/2019 at 02:57, poita said:

Viney's biggest problem this year has been his obsession with trying to break tackles or bust through packs of players. In these circumstances, if he doesn't get caught holding the ball, he is inevitably going to kick off balance and under pressure.

That said, I thought Sunday's game was his best for the year and I'm not sure that he got caught holding the ball at all. Perhaps the penny has finally dropped.

He actually did get pinged for HTB once in either the second or third quarter but agree with you that it was by far his best game of the year which was pleasing. Hopefully he can end the year on a high, enjoy a healthy pre-season and have a career best 2020.

  On 16/07/2019 at 04:14, Lord Nev said:

Yep, there's a whole other thread that could be filled with the very current 'talk' going around about 'Goodwin's Boys'...

Interesting. There’s clearly some kind of disharmony down there. 

  On 16/07/2019 at 04:14, Lord Nev said:

Yep, there's a whole other thread that could be filled with the very current 'talk' going around about 'Goodwin's Boys'...

That sounds tasty.... so, what's the schism?

Great post. For me it’s about players knowing their limitations and working within them ie short kick/handball to better distributors. Obvious problem is that’s what we lack and need to address by some good trading. Also think we should be getting Salem up the ground to help with this problem so he can feed it into the forward line - he weights his kicks perfectly

  On 16/07/2019 at 05:57, Engorged Onion said:

That sounds tasty.... so, what's the schism?

Just second hand rumours really, but there's some tension mounting it seems, involving selection and management. Nothing most Dees fans wouldn't have already assumed probably.

  On 16/07/2019 at 03:26, Sir Why You Little said:

Does this mean we are stuck with Viney as Captain for the next 10 years. Both Viney and Jones should lose the Captaincy on the performance of this year. 

Why, simply because they are not up to the task....

We will finish this season in 17th position, unless there is a minor miracle. 

I fully agree. In an ideal world Viney would would demote himself on his own accord. No reason he can't just be part of the "leadership group", which I think would be fitting. 

  On 16/07/2019 at 06:42, Smokey said:

I fully agree. In an ideal world Viney would would demote himself on his own accord. No reason he can't just be part of the "leadership group", which I think would be fitting. 

Does captaincy actually matter anymore? As teenagers say "Like, actually?'

  On 16/07/2019 at 06:52, Engorged Onion said:

Does captaincy actually matter anymore? As teenagers say "Like, actually?'

My own view is that captaincy doesn't matter as much on-field as we might expect because all players today would be drilled to such an extent that there would be little for a captain to do. However, I think off-field the role of the Captain may be quite significant but more for the ceremonial (meeting sponsors, speaking to the media, etc) rather than the practical.

  On 16/07/2019 at 07:10, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

My own view is that captaincy doesn't matter as much on-field as we might expect because all players today would be drilled to such an extent that there would be little for a captain to do. However, I think off-field the role of the Captain may be quite significant but more for the ceremonial (meeting sponsors, speaking to the media, etc) rather than the practical.

Well, with all due respect to Jack, give me Mr Lever for those ceremonial positions.... But moreso - Marty Hore of the chiseled looks (ROLF) - come on - how can that NOT be captaincy material. It's like he is 1940's fighter pilot against the Luftwaffe. 

 

  On 16/07/2019 at 06:52, Engorged Onion said:

Does captaincy actually matter anymore? As teenagers say "Like, actually?'

 

  On 16/07/2019 at 07:10, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

My own view is that captaincy doesn't matter as much on-field as we might expect because all players today would be drilled to such an extent that there would be little for a captain to do. However, I think off-field the role of the Captain may be quite significant but more for the ceremonial (meeting sponsors, speaking to the media, etc) rather than the practical.

Definitely agree that a captain's importance is not as high as it has been in the past, but I do think it still has a high importance during games, mostly from a game style reinforcement perspective. For mine, it's specifically the job of the captain(s) to model the actions the coach has talked about during the week, especially now that there's no runners most of the time.

This is part of my worry with Viney. Either he is implementing the instructions of the coach and just bombing away inside 50, or he is going against the coach's instructions about 'lowering the eyes' and improving 'connection'. Either way there's a problem.

Given neither Viney or Jones are 'instructional' in their leadership style, then the way they play and decisions they make are how they lead. Viney being such a bad decision maker would have to be part of the reason why the onfield performances of the midfield have headed in the same direction as his style of play.

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Lord Nev

  On 16/07/2019 at 06:09, Lord Nev said:

Just second hand rumours really, but there's some tension mounting it seems, involving selection and management. Nothing most Dees fans wouldn't have already assumed probably.

We're 5 & 11 after coming into the season where the expectations were very high (from most)

So it stands to reason that there would be mounting tensions.  A shake-up of the assistants with at least 10 changes to the list is my tip. 

As for Viney,  when he is fit and raring to go is when we see his value.  His kicking efficiency drops away when he plays hurt. 

At his best he's a bull who can break tackles and then deliver the ball unimpeded (it's then up to the forwards to produce) 

His value decreases quite sharply when not fully fit.  He's not the most accurate of field kicks so he needs to be 'freed up' to hit targets (or kick to advantage or space)

Being co-captain he'd want to always play and he strikes me that that is how he is wired anyway.  Which in turn makes it tough for the selectors if they want to rest/rehab the player.

Unlike others,  you only have to look at Viney from the get-go to know whether he is ready to go or not. 

  On 16/07/2019 at 04:14, Lord Nev said:

Yep, there's a whole other thread that could be filled with the very current 'talk' going around about 'Goodwin's Boys'...

Every coach has his favourite types and mutterings appear about them when their side is losing. They mysteriously disappear when the side is winning.

The "boys club" is not the issue. The "not winning" is the issue.

  On 16/07/2019 at 08:19, Mazer Rackham said:

Every coach has his favourite types and mutterings appear about them when their side is losing. They mysteriously disappear when the side is winning.

The "boys club" is not the issue. The "not winning" is the issue.

There were 'mutterings' last year also. Agree they might not have got noticed as much, but they were certainly there. (Have we forgotten the training camp already?)

We're not winning due to poor performances, poor performances can come about due to club culture, club culture is influenced by things like those mentioned previously. They're not separate issues in my opinion.

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Lord Nev

  On 16/07/2019 at 08:22, Lord Nev said:

There were 'mutterings' last year also. Agree they might not have got noticed as much, but they were certainly there. (Have we forgotten the training camp already?)

We're not winning due to poor performances, poor performances can come about due to club culture, club culture is influenced by things like those mentioned previously. They're not separate issues in my opinion.

I don't disagree but I think think the current malaise is a lot simpler than that. Goodwin is at a coaching crossroads. His methods are falling short and he has to revise them, or join the sacked coaches club. 

I'm concerned that the weight of captiancy is putting extra strain on Viney's foot. Just as dropping a couple of kg's body weight not having captiancy would free the weight off his mind and help ensure his foot isn't overloaded. 

Give  Jones the boot... you cannot have two captains. Jack is an e extractor... needs skilled players around him to deliver the ball.

Edited July 16, 20195 yr by Ugottobekidding

  On 16/07/2019 at 02:57, poita said:

Viney's biggest problem this year has been his obsession with trying to break tackles or bust through packs of players. In these circumstances, if he doesn't get caught holding the ball, he is inevitably going to kick off balance and under pressure.

That said, I thought Sunday's game was his best for the year and I'm not sure that he got caught holding the ball at all. Perhaps the penny has finally dropped.

Viney has been doing this for a long time now & unfortunately everyone, including the opposition, knows exactly what hes going to do when he gains possession. We have been very predictable this year......Maybe a quick handball & a block would be better & more team orientated.

The coaches strategically removed O Mac from games for a few weeks to address his fitness & confidence, so why cant they address Viney's kicking & others for that matter? Me thinks that Goodwin isn't concerned & is prepared to back Viney's effectiveness over his turnovers.

He's backed a lot of his boys this year but unfortunately its ended in tears.

I have railed ad nauseum in relation to Jack's impact on the midfield efficiency. I would never ever doubt his commitment level (especially to hi face).

However our best run last year came when Jack was out, and the midfield worked brilliantly. When he returned this year he was under done ,yet demanded a mid field role. The chemistry and quality disappeared .

I must admit lately he is getting some of his "zing"back insofar as strength and pressure. A lift in quality would bring more players into the game and the quality would go up markedly.

For instance last week Max dominated the ruck, clearances were down and connectivity was down for a good part of the game. Yet, we nearly won it !!

Somehow I still feel JV presence would be most advantageous would be as a pressure small fwd . He may perform  Cyril's role by just being in the area. (* You would still have him up our sleeve if our opponents midfield get above their true status )

  On 16/07/2019 at 08:33, Mazer Rackham said:

I don't disagree but I think think the current malaise is a lot simpler than that. Goodwin is at a coaching crossroads. His methods are falling short and he has to revise them, or join the sacked coaches club. 

We definitely both agree on that point mate.

Not saying it's only Viney of course, but:

“Their retention for kicks inside 50 went from second in the competition, now it sits at 16th. Last year when they charged through to the finals kicking the ball inside 50, no other team in the competition marked the ball more – they were No.1 in the comp … they’re 16th."

The horror numbers that epitomise Melbourne’s demise