6 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Hearing Jordan Lewis speak on AFL 360, one of the disappointing things about the Brisbane game was an attitude issue, in that some players were off their usual behavioural standards (e.g deciding not to chase/defend). It’s behaviours like this that keep me worried. The only  acceptable excuse for this is the reason they decided not to chase/defend because they’re too tired/not fit enough due to the aforementioned pre-season.

I saw the Lewis interview and immediately thought of these 3 ..Brayshaw, Harmes, Oliver. 

All 3 played Hollywood style football on the weekend and only ran one way.

5 hours ago, Redleg said:

But we have had this year for most of the 21st century, barring last year and a couple under Neale.

This squad or at least the majority hasn't had it.  They have seen improvement every year since 2014, yes there has been injuries and the interupted pre seasons having an impact but a feeling of natural progression and it will just happen may have set in to what at the core of it is still an inexperienced unit in the nucleus 

52 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I saw the Lewis interview and immediately thought of these 3 ..Brayshaw, Harmes, Oliver. 

Absolutely.

Though the thing that jumped out at me re the Lewis comments were re the May/Frost "discussion", where he made the point that Sam hasn't played in a team where he's had a player around him like May to make those kinds of comments in the first place.

"It's basically two players who haven't played together very much".

Which goes back to the subject of this very thread, and the lack of time together over the pre-season and onwards.

12 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

I saw the Lewis interview and immediately thought of these 3 ..Brayshaw, Harmes, Oliver. 

All 3 played Hollywood style football on the weekend and only ran one way.

On "On The Couch" they said we had 2 tackles for the 3rd quarter.

TWO TACKLES FOR AN ENTIRE QUARTER!!!

35 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

On "On The Couch" they said we had 2 tackles for the 3rd quarter.

TWO TACKLES FOR AN ENTIRE QUARTER!!!

That to me shows its an attitude issue right now. To lay 2 tackles for an entire quarter is absolutely disgraceful. 

Brings back haunting memories of the Mark Neeld days.

54 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

On "On The Couch" they said we had 2 tackles for the 3rd quarter.

TWO TACKLES FOR AN ENTIRE QUARTER!!!

 

18 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

That to me shows its an attitude issue right now. To lay 2 tackles for an entire quarter is absolutely disgraceful. 

Injuries and and interrupted pre-seasons are the reasons for our two tackle quarter, jeeeeeeez. 

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

On "On The Couch" they said we had 2 tackles for the 3rd quarter.

TWO TACKLES FOR AN ENTIRE QUARTER!!!

 

29 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

That to me shows its an attitude issue right now. To lay 2 tackles for an entire quarter is absolutely disgraceful. 

Brings back haunting memories of the Mark Neeld days.

Yep, remember watching and at about the 20min mark of the Q we had one tackle.

It shows all is not well. There is a disconnect somewhere and it's not just between our mids and forwards.

There will be some changes made...

Edited July 3, 20195 yr by rjay

14 minutes ago, rjay said:

 

Yep, remember watching and at about the 20min mark of the Q we had one tackle.

It shows all is not well. There is a disconnect somewhere and it's not just between our mids and forwards.

There will be some changes made...

These were the starting midfield that spent the most time in the midfield in center bounces and around the ground.

Martin, Lyons, Zorko, Neale McCluggege all combined for 27 tackles for the day.

Gawn, Viney, Oliver, Brayshaw, Harmes all combines for just 13 Tackles..

 

36 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

These were the starting midfield that spent the most time in the midfield in center bounces and around the ground.

Martin, Lyons, Zorko, Neale McCluggege all combined for 27 tackles for the day.

Gawn, Viney, Oliver, Brayshaw, Harmes all combines for just 13 Tackles..

 

Our number one midfield that got continuously smashed at centre clearances with the dominant ruckman.

Can this season get worse

Wow the naysayers making excuses

I am with @Sir Why You Little on this one

I watched the players who had post season surgery come out of rehab, every single one said they were fitter than ever, I watched the 2k's,  they were

The issue this season is down to skills, form and consistency of 4 qtr efforts, they have all been lacking

Losing 3 really important players in AVB,  Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped

To use the preseason as an excuse is a cop out

There was no new game plan to learn or implement

 All our issues this season have been above the shoulders

Edited July 3, 20195 yr by Satyriconhome

Wait...

Weren't we told on here during the summer that our players weren't having an interrupting pre season??

Just now, dazzledavey36 said:

Wait...

Weren't we told on here during the summer that our players weren't having an interrupting pre season??

Read my post, you're making excuses, which I tefuse to accept

3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Read my post, you're making excuses, which I tefuse to accept

No mate, why should i read yours when ypu didn't even read mine back a couple of posts?

I clearly said our issue right now is all atitude. I even put the numbers of our lack of tackling pressure from our starting mids against brisbane. Something we have built our game on and we got completely torn to shreds in that category.

Whether we have mentally checked out or not something is not right up stairs.

The OP is neither right nor wrong.

Our pre-season was awful and it has had an immensely negative impact on our season. But it is not the sole reason we've had a disastrous year.

It can certainly be argued that it is the dominant reason for our bad year. The OP and others have made some good arguments to that effect.

But there are other issues that have manifested this year that are separate. IMO at the top of the list is the game plan - too aggressive of a forward press, not enough outside run, too much reliance on winning CPs and clearances, playing on from marks too much, no structure for kick outs from defence.

I have seen tweaks to the game plan as the season has gone on which give me confidence that the coaches have seen the issues and have started trying to fix them. I've seen our last defender hold back far deeper in defence than previously. I've seen us keep key forwards deeper towards goal, rather than having everyone sucked up onto the wing. Against Fremantle we saw more kicking/marking and switching.

I think there are some other issues at play too - there's something of an attitude problem amongst some of our key mids. There seems to be a growing belief that Oliver, Harmes and Brayshaw struggle to commit to two-way running (particularly, and it disappoints me to say it, Oliver). Our horrendous leadership is another problem that won't go away.

I'm with @stevethemanjordan in that I don't like saying this is the year we had to have, but it may well be the case. If 2020 and beyond are going to be successful, then the club has to learn from the mistakes of the 18/19 pre-season and the 2019 season.

10 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Wow the naysayers making excuses

I am with @Sir Why You Little on this one

I watched the players who had post season surgery come out of rehab, every single one said they were fitter than ever, I watched the 2k's,  they were

The issue this season is down to skills, form and consistency of 4 qtr efforts, they have all been lacking

Losing 3 really important players in AVB,  Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped

To use the preseason as an excuse is a cop out

There was no new game plan to learn or implement

 All our issues this season have been above the shoulders

What's caused it then, may I ask? This kind of a drastic change doesn't happen without reason.

What 'above the shoulders' issues are there exactly? How did they start? How did the skills go so far downhill over one preseason?

I believe people are saying the injuries are a cause for our form dip (not an excuse, there's a difference), which at least is feasible, but you're not giving any actual reasons.

Would like to hear your thoughts on actual tangible reasons as someone who watches training more than anybody else.

 

I normally defer to Saty's opinions  because he is mostly correct and well reasoned.

However while he reports that the players were fitter than ever in terms of their 2k run, and while aerobic fitness is good, were they "match fit" as a playing group able to implement their game plan?

I am not convinced.

1 minute ago, tiers said:

I normally defer to Saty's opinions  because he is mostly correct and well reasoned.

However while he reports that the players were fitter than ever in terms of their 2k run, and while aerobic fitness is good, were they "match fit" as a playing group able to implement their game plan?

I am not convinced.

Of course they weren't, and the presentation by Misson to the board made that perfectly clear.

Watching training is great, and we all appreciate the reports here, but the official preseason fitness report by the Elite Performance Manager to the board of the football club is clearly a more reliable and accurate source of information.

 

9 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Of course they weren't, and the presentation by Misson to the board made that perfectly clear.

Watching training is great, and we all appreciate the reports here, but the official preseason fitness report by the Elite Performance Manager to the board of the football club is clearly a more reliable and accurate source of information.

 

This.

I'll take this concern from and Elite Performance Manager over any regular track watcher.

Edited July 3, 20195 yr by dazzledavey36

37 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Wow the naysayers making excuses

I am with @Sir Why You Little on this one

I watched the players who had post season surgery come out of rehab, every single one said they were fitter than ever, I watched the 2k's,  they were

The issue this season is down to skills, form and consistency of 4 qtr efforts, they have all been lacking

Losing 3 really important players in AVB,  Melksham and Jetts hasn't helped

To use the preseason as an excuse is a cop out

There was no new game plan to learn or implement

 All our issues this season have been above the shoulders

Yep, and I think that's a big part of the problem.

No new game plan...

20 hours ago, Engorged Onion said:

I wouldnt let May, Oliver, Gawn, Preuss, Jones or Viney marry my daughter... 

Marty Hore however...

She'd want to keep her maiden name, EO.

20 hours ago, TGR said:

 

Richmond should be applauded for taking a punt on a rough diamond in Stack.  The culture of the MFC would never do that in a million years.  

 

 

 

Big statement! We took a punt on Liam Jurruh, who was very much not the stereotype you created.

41 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

 

 our issue right now is all atitude. I even put the numbers of our lack of tackling pressure from our starting mids against brisbane. Something we have built our game on and we got completely torn to shreds in that category.

Whether we have mentally checked out or not something is not right up stairs.

But dazzler attitude is never in isolation to issues such as preparation and the impact of injury.

We have had shocking run with both poor preseasons and injuries and in addition to the obvious impact of fitness these issues also have a psychological impact.

As Grapveiney pointed out on last nights podcast  it is much harder to remain in the right head space week in, week out when we started well behind the 8 ball, have never caught up and the season has disappeared before the players eyes.

It's hard enough to keep a group motivated week in week when finals are in play - just look at the Pies who are having truth sessions because their intensity has fallen off a cliff. But it is so much harder to keep them focused, switched on and motivated week in week out when finals are of the table. But no less important of course - and perhaps even more important.

And don't get me wrong i'm not making excuses - the point you make about the woeful tackling numbers is spot on. And not good enough from our leaders. I've said this before but one reason i had so much respect for the late great Robbie Flower was that when we struggled his effort never, ever dropped and often even seemed to go up a level..

So as i say i'm not making excuses for them but the reality is finding intrinsic motivation to perform and go hard every game and every contest is hard in the sort of season we are having.

This will be Goody biggest challenge for the rest of the year and will test his motivational and man management skills more than say last year when were riding a wave in the last third of the season

I gather from your posts you are still playing footy. Surely you have experience of the connection between physical preparation and mental performance on a team a whole. 

2 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

 

Injuries and and interrupted pre-seasons are the reasons for our two tackle quarter, jeeeeeeez. 

I guess if you see things in simple black and white terms then you might be right. 

But I prefer a more holistic, nuanced perspective that sees how a range of factors are interconnected.

Don't feel you need to reply. 

14 minutes ago, binman said:

I've said this before but one reason i had so much respect for the late great Robbie Flower was that when we struggled his effort never, ever dropped and often even seemed to go up a level..

Sorry for editing your post in this way BM but this part of your post stood out to me. 

Even mug sportspeople can battle it out when it doesn't matter but the greats use it as practice.  They never quit.

Most others give up ... it's a mindset often confined to the elite but there is no reason why an average player can't have a never-say-die attitude. 

And that's what we lack (apart from a number of other weaknesses)

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Our pre-season was awful and it has had an immensely negative impact on our season. But it is not the sole reason we've had a disastrous year.

I'm not sure anyone's saying that it is.

Equally, things aren't always as unconnected as they might at first seem: inability to perform at highest level (personally/collectively) -> falling confidence and self-belief -> inability to perform at highest level (personally/collectively).