Demons kicking skills and footy smarts

[btdemon 482]

I was listening to the "Dee Brief" last night, and I tend to agree with an opinion expressed there. That we have relied solely on contested ball, chaos footy and now we are already knackered. With a shipload of injuries and a massive drop-off in skills. In relation to recruiting young Kyle Dunkley, he looks like he can win the ball and has footy smarts. His kicking (on the very small sample of video footage available), looks average. This is a great shame.

I believe in Clarko's mantra, in that he "won't recruit anyone who is not a good kick". We have way too many NQR kicks. This bloke looks like he can get the ball, and is smart, but that kick looks pretty 'agricultural'.

Demons who I trust with ball in hand - the best ones in bold

• Nev (great up to 40 metres. Rarely wastes it)
• Salem (although he does stab at it too much and the trajectory could be flatter. Too much air time)
• Lewis (sometimes)
• Melksham (providing he is not having a set shot)
• Weideman (providing he is having a set shot)
• Baker (maybe, not sure yet)
• Lockhart (mostly very neat with a nice low trajectory)
• Hibbo (most of the time)
• Fritsch (Beautiful style but slow to put it on the boot. He is adventurous and although he has been butchering it lately he is still very creative. Sometimes he doesn't control the depth of his kicking)
• Max (up to 35 metres)
• Lever (kicks well within his capabilities)
• Gus (crap lately, but generally ok. Needs to think more about it)
• Hore (ok but floaty. Misses some targets)
• Jones (seems to be getting worse again. Like he was in his early career. It could be because he is older and slower and needs time to balance)

Demons who make me nervous with ball in hand -

• Clarry (haphazard but good distance. Generally predictable, in that he wheels on to his right foot and bombs long, with too much air time)
• Petracca (field kicking good, but ball drop crazy. natural hook. Set shots - massive yips!)
• T Mac (set shots from inside 40 only! Field kicking is horrible!)
• Hunt (some set shots are ok from within 35, otherwise its a lottery)
• Frosty (been kicking well when balanced to targets that are no more than 30 metres away)
• ANB (disposal sh!ts me. Turns it over consistently)
• Viney (as per ANB, but a bit worse)
• Oscar (generally good but limited to shorter distances)
• Jeffy (yips)
• Spargo (ok but can't kick over 35)
• Harmes (improving. This bloke seems to be thinking about his kicking and working on it. It's still not consistent)
• Hannan (He has an iffy ball-drop but is good enough to get away with it most of the time)

There are others we haven't seen enough of yet. But what this list says to me is that our kicking skills are NOT GOOD ENOUGH under pressure. The contrast with GWS was so stark on Sunday. Our game plan relies way too heavily on the 'chaos' game. We haven't been able to maintain it this year because it's exhausting and bruising. There is no substitute for good skills and accurate kicking. It can keep you in the game when the pressure is on.

PLEASE Jason Taylor, don't recruit guys just because they are 'goers'. We have heaps of them. Recruit some silk and some footy smarts. For those who think we have the list to win a premiership, I respectfully disagree. It needs significant repair and augmentation before we will be ready. Have a look at the other top teams - GWS, Tigers, Cats and Collingwood. All have better smarts and skills. Other teams like the Lions will be there very quickly. Quality footballers all round. We have a way to go and need the injection of real class

[SwissDee 43]

The game plan seems to be 'win the contested ball and kick it to a contest, create chaos'.

I wonder how good the skills would be if we played a more possession based game.

I remember watching the Saints and the Swans games at the back end of last year and how they just had one less player in at the contest. I think it was a deliberate ploy, the idea quite simple. Don't worry about winning the ball, just knock it out to where the outside player is positioned. And they then killed us with outside run.

The Eagles basically used the same blueprint in the prelim (plus they're a much better team).

I think chaos works for patches of games, but it can't be the main game plan. Players can't be expected to show off great skills when chaos is the game plan. And forward 50 entries are too easy to pick off when chaos is the game plan.

[What 18,810]

I'll take "Things that don't exist' for 500, Alex

Edited May 28, 2019 by Petraccattack

[binman 42,912]

1 hour ago, btdemon said:

I was listening to the "Dee Brief" last night, and I tend to agree with an opinion expressed there. That we have relied solely on contested ball, chaos footy and now we are already knackered. With a shipload of injuries and a massive drop-off in skills. In relation to recruiting young Kyle Dunkley, he looks like he can win the ball and has footy smarts. His kicking (on the very small sample of video footage available), looks average. This is a great shame.

I believe in Clarko's mantra, in that he "won't recruit anyone who is not a good kick". We have way too many NQR kicks. This bloke looks like he can get the ball, and is smart, but that kick looks pretty 'agricultural'.

Demons who I trust with ball in hand - the best ones in bold

• Nev (great up to 40 metres. Rarely wastes it)
• Salem (although he does stab at it too much and the trajectory could be flatter. Too much air time)
• Lewis (sometimes)
• Melksham (providing he is not having a set shot)
• Weideman (providing he is having a set shot)
• Baker (maybe, not sure yet)
• Lockhart (mostly very neat with a nice low trajectory)
• Hibbo (most of the time)
• Fritsch (Beautiful style but slow to put it on the boot. He is adventurous and although he has been butchering it lately he is still very creative. Sometimes he doesn't control the depth of his kicking)
• Max (up to 35 metres)
• Lever (kicks well within his capabilities)
• Gus (crap lately, but generally ok. Needs to think more about it)
• Hore (ok but floaty. Misses some targets)
• Jones (seems to be getting worse again. Like he was in his early career. It could be because he is older and slower and needs time to balance)

Demons who make me nervous with ball in hand -

• Clarry (haphazard but good distance. Generally predictable, in that he wheels on to his right foot and bombs long, with too much air time)
• Petracca (field kicking good, but ball drop crazy. natural hook. Set shots - massive yips!)
• T Mac (set shots from inside 40 only! Field kicking is horrible!)
• Hunt (some set shots are ok from within 35, otherwise its a lottery)
• Frosty (been kicking well when balanced to targets that are no more than 30 metres away)
• ANB (disposal sh!ts me. Turns it over consistently)
• Viney (as per ANB, but a bit worse)
• Oscar (generally good but limited to shorter distances)
• Jeffy (yips)
• Spargo (ok but can't kick over 35)
• Harmes (improving. This bloke seems to be thinking about his kicking and working on it. It's still not consistent)
• Hannan (He has an iffy ball-drop but is good enough to get away with it most of the time)

There are others we haven't seen enough of yet. But what this list says to me is that our kicking skills are NOT GOOD ENOUGH under pressure. The contrast with GWS was so stark on Sunday. Our game plan relies way too heavily on the 'chaos' game. We haven't been able to maintain it this year because it's exhausting and bruising. There is no substitute for good skills and accurate kicking. It can keep you in the game when the pressure is on.

PLEASE Jason Taylor, don't recruit guys just because they are 'goers'. We have heaps of them. Recruit some silk and some footy smarts. For those who think we have the list to win a premiership, I respectfully disagree. It needs significant repair and augmentation before we will be ready. Have a look at the other top teams - GWS, Tigers, Cats and Collingwood. All have better smarts and skills. Other teams like the Lions will be there very quickly. Quality footballers all round. We have a way to go and need the injection of real class

On the couch had a fascinating stat on Monday. The 2 teams that move the ball slowest as measured by play on from mark or free are the top 2 on the ladder.

And the inverse is almost the same. We are one are one of the quickest teams and are near the bottom of the ladder

Added to that the cats, pies, eagles and to a lesser extent gws are all high possession sides who simply deny the opposition the ball and more than happy to chip it around their defensive 50 and use the width of the ground. This represents a significant tactical shift in the game away from our and richmonds approach.

The tigers  team have been rhe strategic benckmhmark in the last 2 years (even last year - easy to forget that prior to being been by the pies in the finals they were the overwhelming favorites to win the flag as they had been all year).

The real question is will the slow, maintain possession style (a staple of soccer for forever and a day - for good reason as your opposition can't score if you have the ball) will prove to be the premiership wimning model in the next few years.

Leaving that question aside we are spectacularly ill equpied for that strategy as it relies on excellent kicks and players with enough pace to recreate a marking, outlet option.

Our kicking is appalling. On our list the ONLY two players I trust with ball in hand is omac and salem. That's it.

[one_demon 826]

57 minutes ago, SwissDee said:

...can't be expected to show off great skills when chaos is the game plan

Yes.  Our disposals end up being chaotic as well

Edited May 28, 2019 by one_demon

[buck_nekkid 5,858]

Considering our skills, I think we rarely get the chance to use them with our current ‘rush at all costs’ philosophy.  Right now, we rush TOO MUCH.  We hit opposition players, kick to the non-advantage side of contests and miss moving targets.  The rush at all costs mantra looks great when we pull it off, but most of the time we could use the 1/2 a second more to improve our outcome without negative consequences.

Salem is #1 in skills for mine.  I think Lever is also very good, and down forward TMAC has been good as a set shot, and Fritsch has shown some serious quality.

If they were told to slow it down a bit more, we might get a different perspective on some of these guys.

[btdemon 482]

30 minutes ago, binman said:

On the couch had a fascinating stat on Monday. The 2 teams that move the ball slowest as measured by play on from mark or free are the top 2 on the ladder.

And the inverse is almost the same. We are one are one of the quickest teams and are near the bottom of the ladder

Added to that the cats, pies, eagles and to a lesser extent gws are all high possession sides who simply deny the opposition the ball and more than happy to chip it around their defensive 50 and use the width of the ground. This represents a significant tactical shift in the game away from our and richmonds approach.

The tigers  team have been rhe strategic benckmhmark in the last 2 years (even last year - easy to forget that prior to being been by the pies in the finals they were the overwhelming favorites to win the flag as they had been all year).

The real question is will the slow, maintain possession style (a staple of soccer for forever and a day - for good reason as your opposition can't score if you have the ball) will prove to be the premiership wimning model in the next few years.

Leaving that question aside we are spectacularly ill equpied for that strategy as it relies on excellent kicks and players with enough pace to recreate a marking, outlet option.

Our kicking is appalling. On our list the ONLY two players I trust with ball in hand is omac and salem. That's it.

The difference between us and the Tigers is that they have more pace and skill. They apply pressure through great defensive positioning and pace. We can't quite match them in this regard. Their offensive running is better and smarter too and they have some great forwards in Reiwoldt, Martin, Rioli, Lynch, Castagna etc. While they are not necessarily brilliant, their system is. Ours requires a higher level of physical contest and has taken its toll. I hope that Goodwin and the coaching panel have a development plan. The current one is not sustainable. 

[btdemon 482]

Just now, buck_nekkid said:

Considering our skills, I think we rarely get the chance to use them with our current ‘rush at all costs’ philosophy.  Right now, we rush TOO MUCH.  We hit opposition players, kick to the non-advantage side of contests and miss moving targets.  The rush at all costs mantra looks great when we pull it off, but most of the time we could use the 1/2 a second more to improve our outcome without negative consequences.

Salem is #1 in skills for mine.  I think Lever is also very good, and down forward TMAC has been good as a set shot, and Fritsch has shown some serious quality.

If they were told to slow it down a bit more, we might get a different perspective on some of these guys.

It makes guys like Melksham's entries really important.

[dpositive 1,665]

You all do know the " chaos theory" I hope?

There is order in chaos! We do however know when to create the bifurcation and arrange the pattern. We also need to recognise the strange attractor,

[dpositive 1,665]

Sorry should read we need to know when to create etc.

if this thread continues I may need to refer to my notes

[rjay 24,919]

10 hours ago, btdemon said:

I believe in Clarko's mantra, in that he "won't recruit anyone who is not a good kick".

Another of footballs many great myths.

Exhibit A: Frawley

He will recruit horses for courses, he's too smart to be locked into a mantra.

[monoccular 17,427]

16 hours ago, btdemon said:

........

PLEASE Jason Taylor, don't recruit guys just because they are 'goers'. We have heaps of them. Recruit some silk and some footy smarts. For those who think we have the list to win a premiership, I respectfully disagree. It needs significant repair and augmentation before we will be ready. Have a look at the other top teams - GWS, Tigers, Cats and Collingwood. All have better smarts and skills. Other teams like the Lions will be there very quickly. Quality footballers all round. We have a way to go and need the injection of real class

So should we instead recruit “elite kicks” like Strauss, Maric, Morton who may well be that but can’t show it because they can’t get the ball?

Number 1 has to be fearless desire for and commitment to the contest

[Kent 2,909]

The team continues to make dumb decisions going forward,

and then they continue to continue.

Surely the coaching / game style needs to be questioned.

[DV8 2,271]

15 hours ago, monoccular said:

So should we instead recruit “elite kicks” like Strauss, Maric, Morton who may well be that but can’t show it because they can’t get the ball?

Number 1 has to be fearless desire for and commitment to the contest

I agree with you Mono.

...  especially for this club... which has not had that base, as a solid foundation,  for decades.

The Hawks already built ontop of they're 80's teams tough foundations..  and evolved off that base.

 

So Yes,  I think we should have our basic instinct as being hard at the contest...  and find/recruit skilled players from within this hardened mold of players,  because we must build in which we are perennially lacking.

# Foundations : genune toughness, not feux. (see Hodge)

# Structure : add skilled speed & clever

# Roof : then add  more youth, again following the above

[nosoupforme 3,085]

Don't worry about the game style there isn't anything wrong with it. Let''s wait patiently for all to return and when the best of our team is back playing then the game style is into effect. That is how it works. Not if the puzzle has missing pieces.

Good experience players can make a very good team and can be taught  to  play a game style much faster than all the babies we are playing at the moment. Was the game style not a good one in 2018?. If we can hang on and get most back then the so called game style will mostly come back.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Edited May 30, 2019 by nosoupforme

[rjay 24,919]

29 minutes ago, nosoupforme said:

Was the game style not a good one in 2018?

It was shown up badly and picked to pieces in the Preliminary final by WC and by Collingwood mid year.

So, if that is the game style (and it appears to be what we are using again this year) then I would think it needs major adjustments.

It's not going to take us all the way.

[btdemon 482]

On 5/29/2019 at 7:48 AM, monoccular said:

So should we instead recruit “elite kicks” like Strauss, Maric, Morton who may well be that but can’t show it because they can’t get the ball?

Number 1 has to be fearless desire for and commitment to the contest

 

43 minutes ago, rjay said:

It was shown up badly and picked to pieces in the Preliminary final by WC and by Collingwood mid year.

So, if that is the game style (and it appears to be what we are using again this year) then I would think it needs major adjustments.

It's not going to take us all the way.

No way was Morton an 'elite' kick. Maric couldn't get the ball and neither could Strauss. Toumpas was also touted as an 'elite' kick. He wasn't. Both he and Morton had very flawed techniques which crumbled under pressure (I have railed on this forum about the flaws in their kicking). I just think that we recruited competitive beasts, many of whom are not good users. The ideal is, of course, to have a combination of combative, smart and skilful. ATM we are out of whack.

[SPC 3,549]

Salem only one who ticks both boxes.. YZE 2.0

[binman 42,912]

On 5/29/2019 at 7:48 AM, monoccular said:

 

Number 1 has to be fearless desire for and commitment to the contest

I disagree.Of course a fearless desire for and commitment to the contest is important and every team needs some players like Viney who are next level in that regard.  And yes all players have 'to go when its their turn' 

But not all have to be competitive ball winning beasts. And i think we have too many of those, even when we have our best 22 on the park. 

The best teams have players with mixture of strengths. GWS have a brilliant balance and as grapviney said on the podcast hard not to be envious.

My number 1 is being a really good, natural footballer who at a minimum can execute AFL standard fundamental football skills:  can hit targets by hand and foot, has a capacity to read  the play, anticipates what is going to unfold, knows how to use their body in marking contests, wants the footy, knows where to run to (and where not to), can weight the ball to advantage when kicking to team mates, and understands the nuances of the game.

You can teach a player to have commitment to the contest (and drop them if they don't show it - which is what will happen to jeffy soon enough unfortunately) but by the times a player gets to the AFL it is is too late to teach them the  above skills (by and large).

A player who does not have at least most of those fundamental skills is of little use and really you can only carry one or two. Maynard is a classic example. A goer, a competitive beast but that is simply not enough, particularly when we have Viney who is simply a terrible kick (but does have some of the other skills, fortunately).

Edited May 30, 2019 by binman

[tiers 2,832]

Our greatest weakness is the inability to offer good options for the kicker. Partly due to "play on" mentality, partly due to lack of confidence in the kicker delivering the ball to the advantage of the receiver, partly due to the absence of a cohesive, effective and predictable (to us) game plan.

Time for the coaches to step up and instill these qualities into the team. Injuries should not affect these parts of the game plan - the plan should apply to all players on the list.

[binman 42,912]

1 minute ago, tiers said:

Our greatest weakness is the inability to offer good options for the kicker.

yes an issue, not our greatest weakness as even when there is a good option offered we miss that target more often or not - or alternatively put on their head not out in front of the leading player.

[Moonshadow 17,676]

On 5/28/2019 at 5:36 PM, buck_nekkid said:

Considering our skills, I think we rarely get the chance to use them with our current ‘rush at all costs’ philosophy.  Right now, we rush TOO MUCH.  We hit opposition players, kick to the non-advantage side of contests and miss moving targets.  The rush at all costs mantra looks great when we pull it off, but most of the time we could use the 1/2 a second more to improve our outcome without negative consequences.

Salem is #1 in skills for mine.  I think Lever is also very good, and down forward TMAC has been good as a set shot, and Fritsch has shown some serious quality.

If they were told to slow it down a bit more, we might get a different perspective on some of these guys.

Agree, we lack polish. Will this develop as our list matures or are the current cattle just not up to it, bearing in mind our outs?

Edited May 30, 2019 by Moonshadow

[nosoupforme 3,085]

7 hours ago, rjay said:

It was shown up badly and picked to pieces in the Preliminary final by WC and by Collingwood mid year.

So, if that is the game style (and it appears to be what we are using again this year) then I would think it needs major adjustments.

It's not going to take us all the way.

RJ you are like a broken record l believe your criticism is not constructive . If a game plan needs major adjustments how is this to be achieved. Do you want to sack the coach? Just come out and say so .Whats your answer to the problem without always sitting on the fence.  No middle of the road answers PLEASE!

[rjay 24,919]

25 minutes ago, nosoupforme said:

RJ you are like a broken record l believe your criticism is not constructive . If a game plan needs major adjustments how is this to be achieved. Do you want to sack the coach? Just come out and say so .Whats your answer to the problem without always sitting on the fence.  No middle of the road answers PLEASE!

I'm not sure if my posts are criticism or observation. They are my opinions...you don't like them and I don't really care.

Sack the coach, please. No I don't want to sack the coach unless the club deems and he proves that he's no good.

I hope and don't think we're at that stage yet...

Goodwin is still a young coach, in his 3rd year. I don't know if he can or can't coach but what I do know is that young coaches take time to mature into the role.

Part of that maturity process seems to be the ability to listen and take on board alternative views, to not stick with something that is not working.

Thompson, Hardwick and Buckley have all been there and there was a point in their tenure where they were forced to change direction or they would have been out of a job.

The greatest of the modern coaches Clarkson has changed time and again, continually reinventing himself and his team.

As I've said elsewhere the writing was on the wall since the Prelim. Injuries of course haven't helped us but there also seems to be blind faith placed in a game plan that is not working. It didn't work last year against the best so it's no surprise it's not this year with an inferior team to execute it.

Goodwin will have a stronger team around him next year and should be more consultative in his coaching. Our game plan will need to evolve.

I think so far he's been stubbornly sticking to what he thinks will work...

If he's smart he will learn his lessons well, if not he will be just another sacked coach.

 

[dimmy 1,307]

How often do we see/hear when a kicker kicks to a space. And in a cohesive setup ,people know how to move into that space at the right time. We were doing that last year because we were "connected" .

Too often currently either leads/spaces are ignored or a player kicks the ball and the supposed recipient is standing.

Two things: NEVER kick to a bloke standing still

                     Never stand still