1 hour ago, John Demonic said:

You could say he torpedo'd him out of the club..

Culture change, beginnings.

FML,

Look at all the rubbish trotting around.

-Fitness not good

-Culture

-need to sack staff

-poor recruiting

-getting rid of hogan

-wasting draft picks

-no plan B

-structures

-team selection

-training and development

-playing injured players

Roos and Jackson are gone. Why do you Demonlander's keep chasing your tail?

      

 

 

 

1 minute ago, Jack son 5 said:

FML,

Look at all the rubbish trotting around.

-Fitness not good

-Culture

-need to sack staff

-poor recruiting

-getting rid of hogan

-wasting draft picks

-no plan B

-structures

-team selection

-training and development

-playing injured players

Roos and Jackson are gone. Why do you Demonlander's keep chasing your tail?

      

 

 

 

Because they knew what they were doing?

Why have all the learnings been tossed out?

Need someone at the club to respect the history, colours and jumper?

Melbourne lost that. Have to get it back.

6 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Because they knew what they were doing?

Why have all the learnings been tossed out?

They had a plan to return the club to what it was. Almost there, but fell short. 

What was learnt is now being spat on.

2 hours ago, Scoop Junior said:

Really?

Do we need reminding of the state of the football club just prior to Roos taking over?

We had just gone through two failed rebuilds, had come off a season where we won 2 games with a percentage of 50%, were getting absolutely belted week in week out, had very little talent on the list, had been right down the bottom for 7 years (save for some flashes of good footy in 2010 and 2011), were considered a basket case on and off the field and even the most loyal fans were struggling to have any hope for the future. The culture was a mess, no one wanted to play for us, good players wanted to leave...it was an out-and-out shambles.

Five years later we have improved every year and got within one game of a Grand Final last year with a young and talented list. If anyone was offered that during the 2013 pre-season they would have grabbed it before finishing the sentence. We may be struggling at the moment but surely it's fairer to look at the incremental improvement over 5 years from 2014-2018 than a 6-round sample size.

I shudder to think where we would be as a club without the input of Roos, PJ and others from 2014 onwards. Would we even have a club to support?

This thread is nit-picking at its finest. Of course there may have been the odd decision-making error along the way, but that happens at all clubs. Looking at it in its entirety, Roos did an absolutely sensational job of steering this club away from extinction and onto the path towards being a respected team in the competition.

 

No bigger fan of Roos than me....and that was long before he came to Melbourne.

I just can't work out how he refuses to state the bleeding obvious in relation to the speed of the list and its deficiencies; amongst other low-priority nit-picking...granted.

I would never bash or criticize Roos.    He took over the worst list and mist dysfunctional club and turned it around in 3 seasons.

Where would we be if he didn't come to us?  I shudder to think. 

 

I don’t blame Roos for our current dearth of outside mids and speed in general. Not only had Chunky Jones been carrying the engine room on his own shoulders for the past five seasons, but we’d also just made one of the greatest recruiting howlers of all time the previous year under Neeld - opting for Toump over Ollie Wines.

Virtually out of necessity there was an over-correction towards recruiting inside grunt during the Roos era and I don’t think he needs to make any apology for that. He had to change the DNA of the club. Coming from that far back, impossible to think he could solve every issue on the list in four seasons. 

The outside speed problem is Goodwin’s to worry about over the next two trade and draft periods.

Edited April 26, 20196 yr by Matsuo Basho

It isn't anyones fault that the AFL decided to change the rules and thus how the game was played. I am not sure how people are missing this important fact

Its fact the AFL and the media cronies wanted a more open and "beautiful game". Go look up some articles from last year.

It is the MFCs fault for the readiness of the list to accommodate change. And Fact is we committed everything to a contested possession in close game style. We need to reset now as it hasn't worked.

 

2 minutes ago, Unleash Hell said:

It isn't anyones fault that the AFL decided to change the rules and thus how the game was played. I am not sure how people are missing this important fact

Its fact the AFL and the media cronies wanted a more open and "beautiful game". Go look up some articles from last year.

It is the MFCs fault for the readiness of the list to accommodate change. And Fact is we committed everything to a contested possession in close game style. We need to reset now as it hasn't worked.

 

The AFL could have chosen to reduce the interchange bench,  by one player every 3 years,  until we got back to 2 interchange...  and then 2 emergencies/subs.

This would have been far more gradual and fair a change...  allowing clubs to know exactly where the game was heading.

3 hours ago, JV7 said:

Gees everyone is really looking behind every door to find someone to blame.

Roos built a game on hard nosed, contested football which stands up in finals. I constantly remember him using Fremantle at their best pre Melbourne of having "big bodied mids of Fye/Mundy/Barlow" which we similarly went down that path with Oliver & Brayshaw. Most premiership sides & final sides are good contested teams which we were last year.

As we all know Roos taught us how to defend first before slowly adding in how to attack & defend. We had the right balance towards the end of last year & during the finals we were tougher to score against but could also score heavily. For whatever reason we first lost our defensive mindset & it was costing us, now we've had to focus on defend because we were just bleeding goals so we saw Wednesday night how our attacking & scoring was effected. We wont know without been inside the club what has turned for us to fall away but it could be a combination of the off season surgeries, slight tinker with the game plan, poor player mindset, 6-6-6, sides doing more homework on us, all these little things add up to the perfect storm. 

Roos left 2 and bit seasons ago, a lot has changed since. He isn't the reason we are in this current state. We will ride this out & I have faith Goodwin & this group will turn it around if not by seasons end then next year

 

Just love your first sentence.

4 hours ago, TGR said:

With the demise of Melbourne over the past month, it is interesting to hear Roos' take on it.  He never ever ever brings up the lack of outside speed.  Matthews had to state the bleeding obvious to him on AW yesterday.  If he was to refer to our achilles heel, it would actually make him a touch more responsible for the current plight.  So he doesn't.  He will refer to anything but including: elite effort, pre-season conditioning, and anything else.  He will bring up May, and the way the group returned from pre-season.  He will bring up that the 'team isn't obviously doing what Goodwin wants them to do', rather than questioning the coach and the brand...because obviously Roos was king-maker.

 

I am a big Roos fan, and I often lauded his handing of trades.  But gee wiz, Howe is the best intercept defender in the game; yet Goody sells the farm in a super-draft to get a bloke that basicallly did what Jason Cloke did in his first years.  Dunn was a solid KPP, which forced us to trade for May (who I think will be good anyway).  Roos refuses to question the Josh Kelly for Tyson/Salem, which I could understand at the time, as Neeldy decimated our list and we probably needed 2 B+'s rather than 1 A grader.

Roos has repeatedly said that Melbourne look better with Garlett, Frost and Kent in the team; yet 2 of these were clearly under-valued by Goodwin in the latter part of last year.

 

Trading out of the super-draft was crazy.  Stack didn't even make the super-draft!  That's how good the draft is.  Adelaide have a future thanks to good old Melbourne.

 

Roosy took the bows after the MCG finals in 2018, but I think he has to be a tad more accountable.  He single-handedly chose Goody, who has made some weird decisions including the worst coaching performance I have seen versus the Saints  in the past fortnight.  If we wanted leadership, a slow team needed a leader with speed.  I said at the time that if leadership was so poor at Melbourne (which I think was overrated and self-fulfilling), don't get the slowest player in the game in Lewis, but rather go for Brent Harvey.  We have had some horrible sliding door trading under Goody, and have seen the worst coaching performance in my time. [Insert positive] Surely, it is all trending up from here.

 

Roosy had a big hand in making us a slow team, off-loading some valuable talent; as well as the choice of who will be king.  In times of gloom, I don't think you will hear or see Roosy with dirty fingers.  I like the man, but gee he is a tad teflon.

 

 

 

Re outside speed I don't think Roos values it as highly as playing accountable two way footy. The reason we are getting smashed on the outside is work rate, ability to apply pressure to cause opposition to turn the ball over, and not turning the ball over through poor decision making and skill execution. To often we are too loose and fail to apply enough pressure on the opposition, which is even worse when we turn the ball over. 

Re Howe, Roos praised that Howe played the best low posession half he's ever seen v Geelong. For whatever reason Howe wanted to play for Collingwood and we ended up with Ben Kennedy which worked out poorly. 

Re Dunn, I really liked him as a player but for whatever reason fell out of favour. We chose to instead play Oscar and Frost and brought in stop gaps like Georgiou.

Lever should be a 10 year player and elite intercept defender with strong leadership credentials, and while it will take a few more years to determine if the trade works out, is the sort of player who helps build the right culture. 

Re Tyson and Salem v Kelly, Tyson was important in turning our team from a rabble to a team that could beat sides. I think he hasn't been the same since he hurt his knee and also our inside mids are elite at winning the ball. Salem would probably be our best player so far this year and is playing at an elite level. We do need to bring in a Josh Kelly or similar player to complement our existing midfield. 

I was sad to see Kent go but understand that we weren't prepared to match St Kilda's offer given his inability to string games together.

In summary I don't think our speed is a big problem and definitely not the reason we are losing. We are simply not playing the way we should and need to keep chipping away and hopefully win our share of games before getting into form and smashine the opposition. With how we are playing it's highly unlikely we will challenge this year. 

2 hours ago, Jack son 5 said:

Need someone at the club to respect the history, colours and jumper?

Melbourne lost that. Have to get it back.

So the players play for history, the colors red and blue, and jumper? Righto.

I thought they played for their teammates and for premierships. How silly am I.

9 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Have put comments in red.

Not aimed at you DeeS but there is quite a bit of incorrect or rewriting of history in this thread.  I make the above commetns in the hope stuff in this thread doesn't become folklore/fact. 

Sorry got my PJ and Roos comments mixed up. PJ was going to get a senior footy manager, then decided to keep Mahoney once Roos came on board. Happy for Mahoney to grow in the role. I guess my question now is was PJ right? Or did Roos do enough to make sure Mahoney had everything sorted.

Similarly with the assistants, yes Goodwin clearly wanted many of them, but I think Roos and Mahoney had to make sure Goodwin was picking the right people. McCartney was a logical hire to follow on from Roos as a guy with a wealth of experience, I hope it's working out that way now. Rawlings was a guy Roos kept around. A lot of the newer Goodwin hires started out when Roos was still in charge, even if Goody picked them Roos should've given his opinion.

Roos got the list in a much better shape but I want to know why we've been so slow to react to the need for more run and skill in the side. Might be harsh to not spread the blame equally but the Hawks were winning flags in 13-15 with hard running wings, skills and run from the backline and multiple pressure small forwards. Roos left us with Hunt and Hibberd firing at half back but Stretch and Bugg on the wings? Garlett as the only small forward? 

I'm not so much anti Roos I just think this season is still within the lag time of his legacy. It's not Goodwin coming in and destroying Roos' work, it's their shared legacy going balls up. If Roos really got things heading in the right direction then we should bounce back next year!

 

Sigh...this article aged well:

https://www.playersvoice.com.au/paul-roos-goodbye-old-melbourne/#MlWuxBhiiIpBU2wW.97

I think there are extenuating circumstances for the performances this year.  We have to give it another 18 months.

8 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Sorry got my PJ and Roos comments mixed up. PJ was going to get a senior footy manager, then decided to keep Mahoney once Roos came on board. Happy for Mahoney to grow in the role. I guess my question now is was PJ right? Or did Roos do enough to make sure Mahoney had everything sorted.

Similarly with the assistants, yes Goodwin clearly wanted many of them, but I think Roos and Mahoney had to make sure Goodwin was picking the right people. McCartney was a logical hire to follow on from Roos as a guy with a wealth of experience, I hope it's working out that way now. Rawlings was a guy Roos kept around. A lot of the newer Goodwin hires started out when Roos was still in charge, even if Goody picked them Roos should've given his opinion.

Roos got the list in a much better shape but I want to know why we've been so slow to react to the need for more run and skill in the side. Might be harsh to not spread the blame equally but the Hawks were winning flags in 13-15 with hard running wings, skills and run from the backline and multiple pressure small forwards. Roos left us with Hunt and Hibberd firing at half back but Stretch and Bugg on the wings? Garlett as the only small forward? 

I'm not so much anti Roos I just think this season is still within the lag time of his legacy. It's not Goodwin coming in and destroying Roos' work, it's their shared legacy going balls up. If Roos really got things heading in the right direction then we should bounce back next year!

There are some more factual errors in there which I won't bother to correct.

There is only so much anyone can do to rebuild a rubbish list in 3 seasons.  Roos set out to rebuild our midfield/on-ball brigade.  With Taylor he added:  Salem, Tyson, Petracca, Oliver, Harmes, Hunt, Stretch, ANB, AVB, Garlett.   While some will succeed more than others, it was a good balance of speed, strength, skill.  imv therein is the core of our future premiership team.  For that alone, Roos should be lauded.

Along with the players he inherited (some of whom he developed close to career best performances): Gawn, Jetta, Watts, Viney, Jones, TMac, Hogan, he left us with a decent spine and a very good and promising group of on-ballers.  Roos hasn't been involved in list management decisions in 3-4 seasons.  And his game plan has been all but thrown out.  If anything I see Roos' legacy holding us together with the players (less trade-outs) mentioned above being in our prelim team or current 22. 

It isn't his fault our depth was traded out, that many players came back unfit or we now play an aggressive game plan so I find it very hard to say that our current predicament is within his legacy. 

Over and out on this subject.

Edited April 27, 20196 yr by Lucifer's Hero

14 hours ago, TGR said:

No bigger fan of Roos than me....and that was long before he came to Melbourne.

I just can't work out how he refuses to state the bleeding obvious in relation to the speed of the list and its deficiencies; amongst other low-priority nit-picking...granted.

Why can’t you work it out? You stated it in your thread title. Ego.

6 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Sorry got my PJ and Roos comments mixed up. PJ was going to get a senior footy manager, then decided to keep Mahoney once Roos came on board. Happy for Mahoney to grow in the role. I guess my question now is was PJ right? Or did Roos do enough to make sure Mahoney had everything sorted.

Have said this before but we now have 2 inexperienced heads of the FD...

I don't like it.

Trade/Draft decisions have been made on the assumption of where the list is/was and I reckon it's been overrated.

That's a classic football club error.

Our list is ok but not as good as has been suggested

We will need someone with experience to put the build back on track.

Over to you Mr Pert, who can you get in to sort it out.

 

 

20 hours ago, Moonshadow said:

I'd add club culture to your list of issues.

Absolutely. We had a bit of a reputation in 2017 of being trash talkers (ala GWS - notice they haven't made a GF either), hence Goodwin's constant calls in 2018 of being humble.

I reckon we got ahead of ourselves at the back end of 2017. That's cultural and the fact that Lewis has to send an email around to the players to ensure they stayed on target, that to me, speaks volumes for the rest of the leaders and the culture inside the club.

It follows that not a great deal has changed. 

Let's be clear though. This is not the only issue at play with our poor form.

Edited April 27, 20196 yr by A F

52 minutes ago, A F said:

Absolutely. We had a bit of a reputation in 2017 of being trash talkers (ala GWS - notice they haven't made a GF either), hence Goodwin's constant calls in 2018 of being humble.

I reckon we got ahead of ourselves at the back end of 2017. That's cultural and the fact that Lewis has to send an email around to the players to ensure they stayed on target, that to me, speaks volumes for the rest of the leaders and the culture inside the club.

It follows that not a great deal has changed. 

Let's be clear though. This is not the only issue at play with our poor form.

Our skill level with the ball has been overlooked for years. It is Schoolyard standard compare to what other clubs produce. 

 

7 hours ago, rjay said:

Have said this before but we now have 2 inexperienced heads of the FD...

I don't like it.

Trade/Draft decisions have been made on the assumption of where the list is/was and I reckon it's been overrated.

That's a classic football club error.

Our list is ok but not as good as has been suggested

We will need someone with experience to put the build back on track.

Over to you Mr Pert, who can you get in to sort it out.

 

 

I don't think either Goodwin or Mahoney are going anywhere, so I guess it's about changing the staff under them.

Todd Viney is still listed as the list manager, but I wonder what his role actually is in terms of decision making. Jason Taylor probably has enough runs on the board, but maybe they need to mix up the guys helping him.

Misson's replacement is the big one. Head of fitness is probably one of the top 5 most important people at the club.

Then changes to the assistant coaches. From what I've seen in years before going to summer trainings Goodwin and Rawlings would take the main drills and be quite vocal and really keep on the players about the standards. This year seemed more relaxed which I hoped meant everything was flowing nicely but in hindsight meant things were probably slipping. Skills were decent and the effort was there but I think we just lacked the intensity, hardly a surprise looking at that now giving how many experienced players were in rehab. We need some innovative assistants but to also make sure trainings are at the standard.

I still think the list is good, maybe short one A grader with some pace/skill and then just needs some running talents to replace the older guys. We aren't right up with the top 3 or so lists but I look at Port who dropped away awfully last year and then mixed things up and are now looking very good, maybe not top 4 yet but with a healthy prognosis. Port made a huge amount of win now trades the last few years and it didn't really cost them. As long as you're adding good players and developing talent you aren't too far off bouncing back.

Edited April 27, 20196 yr by DeeSpencer

11 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I don't think either Goodwin or Mahoney are going anywhere

I think Mahoney will be gone at the end of this year...

12 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Port made a huge amount of win now trades the last few years and it didn't really cost them. As long as you're adding good players and developing talent you aren't too far off bouncing back.

Port's win now trades haven't worked for them only Rockliffe is playing at the moment out of that group.

The young talent is driving them from underneath.

35 minutes ago, rjay said:

I think Mahoney will be gone at the end of this year...

Port's win now trades haven't worked for them only Rockliffe is playing at the moment out of that group.

The young talent is driving them from underneath.

We should have fought for Rockliffe, a hard headed goal kicking inside mid.

He was the perfect foil for Jonesy, for when he's done.  

 

He would be very handy right now, Rocky.

3 minutes ago, DV8 said:

We should have fought for Rockliffe, a hard headed goal kicking inside mid.

He was the perfect foil for Jonesy, for when he's done.  

 

He would be very handy right now, Rocky.

We are pre occupied watching Casey games for recruits. Looking far and wide indeed

On 4/26/2019 at 4:41 PM, Lucifer's Hero said:

If folks want to complain about the list maybe look at Todd Viney and to a lesser extent Jason Taylor.  I see a lot more players in the image of TV/SG contested beasts

All this blame game analysis is peeing into the wind. Just about every post about this topic is looking for a scapegoat. The bottom line is the team Roos and Goodwin coached and put together was good enough to get us into the Prelim Final last year. Apart from the loss of Kent and Hogan - both for reasons we'll probably not get to the bottom of, though the Kent issue surely was to do with his Injury track record, and Hogan's wasn't that much better - our list is almost the same as last years, presumably better with the addition of May and Kollo. In the meantime, the Injury Fate Gods have not been kind to us. Post season surgeries also didn't help. 

In other words, what's with the Blame Game??????