Post Game: Rd 5 v St. Kilda

[Demonsone 2,037]

55 years going strong & MFC continues to find a way to self destruct!

[Adam The God 30,261]

8 minutes ago, ProDee said:

The reason Gawn dropped that mark was he took his eyes off the ball because there was a St Kilda player coming the other way.  He really is down on confidence at the moment.

Why did Brayshaw and Salem spend the first 7 minutes on the bench to start the third quarter ?

As some would know, I'm a Goody fan, but would a Clarkson coached team ever be so disorganised behind the ball and so easy to play against ?  I think we both know the answer to that one.

Our team defence is terrible.   

I had a perfect view of that Gawn dropped mark that lead to St Kilda's first goal. He certainly took his eyes off it as you say, but it actually would have been an uncontested mark. The St Kilda player wasn't as close to him as he thought. In fact, from memory, Preuss or another Melbourne player was closer to him.

And yeah, that's ridiculous. I didn't realise they'd been off that long. Salem had just started providing good outside run in the second and Gus was our second best player behind Harmes to that point in the game. Are they trying to manage loads within game? I have no idea, but if not, it's mindnumbingly stupid coaching.

I'm certainly not writing off Goodwin, but our structures are a mess and his chaos game style is already outdated. Surely, watching the two Grand Finalists from last year, who both play control football, spanking the other two preliminary finalists, who both play chaos football, was enough for Goodwin to realise the Beveridge / Hardwick chaos game could be too easily beaten?

Maybe it's revisionist commentary, but it could be viewed that Goodwin was incredibly arrogant to think that with our interrupted and shortened pre season, we could replicate the midfield dominance of 2018 and that no other side would improve.

There is certainly a danger of comparing game styles of other sports with AFL, because all games are different, however I would argue the prevailing game style of repeated champions in not only the AFL but soccer, is the control game style. Spread the field as wide as possible and stretch the defence, allowing holes to open up in the defensive structure, before going into these pockets behind the defence at pace. I know Goodwin is a fan of international sports, so I hope he is paying notice to what Man City and Liverpool are doing in England, because it's exactly what West Coast and Collingwood did last year. West Coast play on the counter with speedy ball movement (controlling from their superior defence) and Collingwood chip the ball around and then go in behind the defence with pace like City do.

Obviously, this is an oversimplification of game style, but chaos caught teams out for two years and it's now been figured out. It's dead. Time to move on, Goody.

What I found interesting for a portion of yesterday's game was that we tried control from the back. We tried to flick a switch from chaotic to control, but what would happen is we'd eventually handball after kicking across our backline for a bit, and usually this handball would go to say Hibberd, who would then bomb it long to a contest (exactly what the opposition wanted). That contest wouldn't be deep inside 50 where we could reset and apply pressure. It would fall somewhere between centre wing and 60m out from our goal.

This has to be a coaching thing. The messaging has to be 'get the ball in quick'. The problem is there's not enough nuance to that plan. And what I find staggering is that this is exactly what we were doing for large periods of last year and it wasn't working. When we started lowering the eyes and kicking shorter we'd win. We tried this a bit yesterday but our forward set up is also a joke. Melksham and Weideman are the only two forwards who lead at the ball carrier and Weideman often runs under the flight of the ball. So when we'd go short, it'd eventually break down and St Kilda's pressure was good.

So I agree our team defence is terrible, but I'd add that our forward structures are hopeless too.

Why is it we haven't looked at poaching coaches from the Hawthorn system? It's a coaching factory out at Glenferrie. 

For the record, I'll back Goodwin, unless Clarkson becomes available. ?

[What 18,810]

Hard to find positives after another disgusting game, but I really like Preuss.

[Youngwilliam 381]

This game drove me nuts. Strong marking forwards don't have a chance when they are against 3-4 defenders. Our players need to lower their eyes when banging it into the goal square does not work. Demons are not playing smart football. Hit a player that is outside the 50. We had 3 free players outside the forward 50 because the Saints knew we would go the long bomb every time.

You have to change the way you enter the 50 through the game and the Demons were too one dimensional.

[Demonised 1,354]

It's the weather I tell you! The games we've lost, it's been unseasonably warm, and we're a cold weather team. Winter is coming; watch us turn things around!

Makes about as much sense as any other theory for our woes ...

[Redleg 40,926]

1 hour ago, ProDee said:

.

Why did Brayshaw and Salem spend the first 7 minutes on the bench to start the third quarter ?

As some would know, I'm a Goody fan, but would a Clarkson coached team ever be so disorganised behind the ball and so easy to play against ?  I think we both know the answer to that one.

Our team defence is terrible.   

Yep.

[Redleg 40,926]

43 minutes ago, Petraccattack said:

Hard to find positives after another disgusting game, but I really like Preuss.

Is doing better forward than I thought he could. If he was isolated one on one like say a Pies entry he would be even better. 

However needs some ruck education, in getting ball to our advantage, but has been a good pickup and can getter much better.

[Willmoy1947 4,091]

Good to see no one cares about how many six packs our players have got any more. Good to remember for next season. The media loved it..............

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

2 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Viney:  “They got more numbers to the contest – we’d kick it long or inside 50 and I just felt like they had more numbers there than us...that’s the part where I’m not too sure how it broke down..."

It is scary that even after the game he still did not know.  And I prefer he didn't tell the world he doesn't know. 

And, how could he not know?  Does he not know the game plan well enough?  As co-cap and on-field leader it is his job to know the game plan backwards and be alert to when things/players are not working to the plan and initiate changes in positioning, effort, moral etc. 

Jack's own work rate set the example but the rest of his leadership was terrible!  His leadership co-horts weren't much better.  It looked like Brown's cows out there!

Had hoped that with Lewis back our on-field leadership would improve.  Not so. 

Lewis marshals the troops from HB.  He can't Marshall anyone from a wing as he is perpetually in flux trying to work out how he can cover his opponent when we dont have the ball (or directing others around him to do so).

[Old Bear 388]

Cane Cornes summed up Lewis’s contribution perfectly on 9s Footy Show

[Demon Dynasty 17,109]

2 hours ago, BrisbaneDemon said:

We’re the easiest team in the comp to score against, there is no other way to put it.  Alarmingly reading Jack Vineys interview I am starting to get the impression our goal coming into the season was to simply out gun teams and kick a bigger score.  In the interview below, not once is defence mentioned, this is our co-captain who isn’t concerned about our defensive structures.  Appears the whole football department is in denial.  Every week it’s the same old line, we just need to recover and next week it’ll be fine.....

 

Focus shifts to ANZAC Day Eve: Viney
http://m.melbournefc.com.au/news/2019-04-20/focus-shifts-to-anzac-day-eve-viney.mobileapp

It's not easy to defend when there is so little pressure on players coming out of our 50 and we are playing dad's army on the wings.

The Opp runs it off their HB and transitions too quickly/easily around either wing and bang, they're into their 50 super quick causing mayhem and panic. 

The Opp just needs to put a few quick smalls at the drop of a contest if they dont mark it and they're off to the races for an easy goal out the back or around the corner.

You can't defend well without sufficient pressure beIng applied up the field.

[scarlett 247]

18 hours ago, DV8 said:

ogghh... more excuses when we were run off our feet defending.  what don't the half forwards have to run and defend ?  they just kick goals only... right .

When are people going to start to expect from this bloke ?  When.

 

He is too slow and sluggish,   he does not cover enough kilometers,  both ways.

Hasn't lived up to the hype but you've got it in for him, you want him dropped but love spargo, petracca provides heaps more both ways than spargo, melksham,  tmac, weid and preuss. Our structures are forward killers, petracca's opponent at least has to stay with him, because he makes himself an option, all the others allow their opponents to peel off and clear the 50 with no pressure clearing our half forwards stuck in that 25-35m dead zone.

18 hours ago, Deecisive said:

we had the same number of scoring shots as they had!  we just played a pathetic band of football and were lucky to not lose by more.

We had our chances but our disposal was woeful, kicking and hand passing to the opposition when under pressure, occasionally when not under pressure. they were first at the ball in defence and in attack, so where were our players. Every team we have played this year has burnt us big on the overlap run out of defence and still we have no solution...... It is not a new problem, happens every game so why are we not prepared for it.

I hate the zone defence. it seems to me that you are essentially trying to take advantage of the miss kick and pick up cheap interceptions. problem is when the opposition does not miss kick then they have an easy run all the way down the field. 

Our defense is horrible to watch, their so high and the ball comes in so quick because of what i said above that they just cant defend. Its designed for the quick pressured quicks out that either are a turn over or hold the player up allowing the zone to push back and repeat, but its been found out. And when we do somehow stop the forward attack, we are either outnumbered or equal  at the contest with our players spread out trying to cover loose players everywhere that a quick kick is forced, to another outnumbered contest, while our midfield is still trying to run back to help and out of position. 

18 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

Hore was excellent. Frost was fine. Hunt is trying. 

The rest are woeful. Hibberd is destroying us atm. 

Hore was ok, looks better than some other options, but his kicking is horrible. When he doesnt butcher it, his kicks are very loooy, allowing for the forward  play to be cut off or slowed down, a switch kick in the 4th demonstrated this perfect, loopy kick didnt allow for the quick play on, and the allowed saints time to shut down the switch. 

 

[Demonsone 2,037]

Dermott Brereton says Melbourne is a ‘team of downhill skiers’

Here is the answer Goody!

[DeeZone 9,848]

Listening to Richardson this morning he stated that once they got the ball over Gawn's head they felt  that they could score as we basically don't have the cattle out on the park to stop their forward thrusts. We obviously were doing some things right you cant manufacture 55 inside 50's without a good midfield but our attempted marking in the forward 50 was just atrocious and our kicking for goal was puerile. 18.4 against the Bummers and 7.13 against the Aints. We really need Lever, May, Hannan, KK and AVB in the side but they may be a long way off......................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In the meantime the Coach needs to modify the game plan to fit the cattle that we do have out there and utilise any player that can take a grab or has some pace to change it up a bit.

[DeeZone 9,848]

2 minutes ago, Demonsone said:

Dermott Brereton says Melbourne is a ‘team of downhill skiers’

Here is the answer Goody!

Old News from a former champ...................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DemonOX 8,791]

13 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

About the only team we might be able to compete with on the G is the Swans Ox but yes.  Can't argue we would win vs many others there at this point.

We learned nothing from Rnd 15 last season against this same team and have now gone backwards and yes, lack of speed is playing a massive part.

We have been smashed on the fast break rebound at the G now for years (not just by the Aints) and are constantly found out with so many joe the goose goals end to end. 

We have a massive speed defficiency, we lack instinctive players to score regularly (outside of Jeffy), we lack fast twitch/reaction players with the agility to side step / baulk and create the overlap and run into space bringing others into the game, we lack class/finish issues (coming inside 50 and in front of goal with the exception of Jeffy) and we lack a genuine KPF.

We also lack some zip around the drop of the ball up forward and down back.  Opp coaches just put one or two zippy players skirting the outside of the drop (at our hot spot roughly 20 meters out or stoppages) and as soon as the ball escapes they're off to the races leaving most of our blokes in their wake linking up down the field at will or running into the square to kick an easy goal.

Goody also played right into the hands of the speedy Aints starting our two slowest players in Chunk & Lewis off of both wings and leaving them there far too long.  Someone also said we started with Hibb on Membury??  And his answer to one change off a wing after the horse had bolted was CWags for Chunk who went into the middle to give us what exactly?  Think i also saw Clarry, Harmes (who i don't mind there) and Gus out on a wing at one point in the 2nd half.

We have serious list management issues and now a serious coaching question mark.  If we were better coached today i think we would have gone very close to winning had our positional set ups and structures been more proffessionally attended to.  Certainly not the reverse where we magnified our weakness and opened ourselves up to them dominating us on the slingshot fast break and/or with their speed / spread on the switch out wide.

I think our intensity was there from the get go but Goody stuffed too many set ups as well as too many player's unable to hit targets coming i50.  This included poor forward work by key forwards running into each other's lanes (T-Mac & Weids), working back into other's lane's dragging their opponent with them also for another extra body to get in the road and/or spoil the player leading from the goal square (T-Mac) and going up together for the contested mark (T-Mac & Weids) and lastly missing relatively easy shots in front of goal or not making the distance.

About the only decent thing we have going now is our inside engine room but even that is slowly starting to come undone with no outside options and too many plodding insiders who don't run with the ball but instead mostly handball to a player (often a loopy hospital one) a few feet away, inviting more pressure/tackles and yet another turnover.

Some of these issues can be corrected somewhat in the short term if we were to put some decent runners to the outside and make them play that role, both on the wings and around stoppages and also instruct the insiders to not go in with so many numbers, forwards to lead out on different lanes etc etc.

A clever coach and staff could make this happen as early as Anzac eve.  If we corrected the set ups and other issues like too many talls up for the mark, no crumbers front and square etc (Jeffy in for CWag or Spargo pls!), this could even result in us having a surprise lazarus win.

However,  Goody seems too stubborn to see much, if any, of this and instead prefers to play slow plodders out wide much of the time.   Have to assume he wants extra numbers at the contest, extra numbers at the hotspot attempting to mark and extra numbers contesting on the ground at the drop as it just keeps happening week after week?

Fritschkreig, Salem, Harmes, Hunt and Melksham should be our go to outsiders with the possibly of a bit of Tracc thrown in around the stoppages for some short stints as a change up with a big body running through a pack for the receive from Maxy/Pruess and working out to others on the outside or up forward.  Certainly not the likes of Chunk, Lewis and Cwag who have Zero running or burst ability that will see the ball cleared from stoppages more often.

We are leaking like a sieve at the moment, especially in the Coaches box.

Great summary RN. 

To me this season seems shot. 

Maybe Goodwin needs and experienced senior coach as his assistant apart from Macca  

Richardson now has Ratten and look at the saints. 

It could be part of the solution anyway. 

Edited April 21, 2019 by DemonOX

[Demonsone 2,037]

31 minutes ago, DeeZone said:

Old News from a former champ...................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

History repeating itself, saw it with the Daniher sides.

[Demonsone 2,037]

33 minutes ago, DemonOX said:

Great summary RN. 

To me this season seems shot. 

Maybe Goodwin needs and experienced senior coach as his assistant apart from Macca  

Richardson now has Ratten and look at the saints. 

It could be part of the solution anyway. 

They were ok last year in finals bar one game

[DV8 2,271]

1 hour ago, scarlett said:

Hasn't lived up to the hype but you've got it in for him, you want him dropped but love spargo, petracca provides heaps more both ways than spargo, melksham,  tmac, weid and preuss. Our structures are forward killers, petracca's opponent at least has to stay with him, because he makes himself an option, all the others allow their opponents to peel off and clear the 50 with no pressure clearing our half forwards stuck in that 25-35m dead zone.

No... I do  not have it in for him.  I want him to fire the fU@K up...  pull the finger out in old terminology and get committed and FIT...  aerobically.

 

He is one of the players,  we "needed" to lift for us this year...   and he is ' too big',  'too heavy',   and,  IF we Were to do any good in Finals this year...  WE needed him to be fit, and fired up...  to be more in the game for much longer periods of games...  Via fitness.

 

This is why I've been driving him, all Off-season.

 

Most of our senior players have become very fit...  and do not carry too much weight on their frames.   Tracca is not one of these.

And it is high time,  he became a much more trimmed down player.

 

He is putting in a better effort,  these past few games,  because of the heat applied him.   He is almost doing it begrudgingly,  because it hurts.  guess what... Pearls are made because of  the creatures irritation.

 

I want him at Melbournefc... but only IF Super-Fit.

 

.

Edited April 21, 2019 by DV8

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

On a side note, what the hell is with Razor Ray and his stupid pep talks after paying free kicks to our players.?? Anyone else notice this? The most memorable was when Viney won a free for holding the ball and he was trying to get up and get the footy back off his opponent who wouldn’t release it so he scrapped with him, it should have been a fifty, but no, Ray comes in and stops the game, buys the St Kilda defenders some time, and has a chat with Viney. He is a [censored]. He did the same to Frost. 

[Mickey 4,684]

So, fun fact. Carlton are about to be above us on the ladder... 

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

8 minutes ago, Leoncelli_36 said:

On a side note, what the hell is with Razor Ray and his stupid pep talks after paying free kicks to our players.?? Anyone else notice this? The most memorable was when Viney won a free for holding the ball and he was trying to get up and get the footy back off his opponent who wouldn’t release it so he scrapped with him, it should have been a fifty, but no, Ray comes in and stops the game, buys the St Kilda defenders some time, and has a chat with Viney. He is a [censored]. He did the same to Frost. 

Worst umpiring in memory this year. Saints throwing like it's rugby, both teams chipping 5m kicks which were all paid, "protected" zone no such thing ... it's like they've just decided that some rules are bull**** and aren't worth enforcing.

Ray and Nicholls  seem to have trouble working out exactly what they are on the field for.

[Leoncelli_36 2,264]

Just now, Mazer Rackham said:

Worst umpiring in memory this year. Saints throwing like it's rugby, both teams chipping 5m kicks which were all paid, "protected" zone no such thing ... it's like they've just decided that some rules are bull**** and aren't worth enforcing.

Ray and Nicholls  seem to have trouble working out exactly what they are on the field for.

How was Ray when he suddenly became the controlling umpire and paid advantage after the umpire in control had called for play to stop. Again, Ray wasn’t having any of it. In he came. Calling advantage while all our players stopped. Saints run into open goal

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

Ray is that teacher you had at school who seemed to hate kids and thought up things to do to the class "for your own good".

[Demonland 72,213]

EASTER BUNNIES by George on the Outer

Easter is supposed to be an occasion of hope, revival and ultimately celebration.  But for the Demon supporters it was none of these as yet again their team was made Easter Bunnies by the Saints.

With the exception of Christian Salem, there was not a single winner on the ground.  The danger for the Demons was giving the Saints their own hope and enthusiasm by conceding early goals.  That is exactly what happened in the first quarter, although with some ridiculous frees from the umpires close to goal.

Nevertheless, the opportunity still stood before the Melbourne players, all they had to do was stay in the game, and all the efforts would come to fruition ... surely ... surely?  

On just about every statistic the Demons outclassed the Saints, yet the scoreboard showed no genuine improvement.  Simple fact is that the forward line is completely and utterly dysfunctional. Aside from early goals (yet again) from Braydon Preuss, the rest of the designated forwards contributed nothing of value for the game (yet again). 

Jake Melksham with two goals and Christian Petracca with a single out of a total of seven majors for the game says it all. Once again Tom McDonald and Sam Weideman failed to bother the goal umpires. We are missing Jesse Hogan more than most would admit, and the plans to cover his loss have been shown to be worthless.

A single goal in the second quarter, followed by another goal-less third quarter, as the Saints piled on eight unanswered goals to have the match all sewn up by ¾ time. 

Too many only look at the defenders and blame them for when the opposition walk the ball into goal, seemingly without a Melbourne player nearby. The truth is the problem lies further up the ground, particularly with those non-performing forwards, and some will not like to hear this, but also the mids.

For the third time this season we have been absolutely cut to ribbons by the small outside runners.  Where do they come from?  Just look a little upfield to see where the likes of Lonie, Billings, Steven and Steele start their runs from.  Who are their opponents?  They are usually easy to find as they are 30 metres behind.  

And sadly, their opponents are some of the highest possession getters for the Melbourne side.  Not much point getting the hands on the ball when your opponents are busy waltzing down the field and kicking goals ...

The situation is not aided when the coaching staff put Jones and Lewis on the wings.  That might have been something done in 2018, but wings are now needed and used (by winning sides) to cover a far greater depth of the ground.  

And Melbourne players on those wings and even flanks continue to just meander toward the contest.  It was a sharp contrast to St.Kilda players who ran toward the middle to either cover defensively, or provide an outside option.   

The other standout was the team positioning in general play by St.Kilda. They were well drilled at the outside fringe and moved almost ballet like together as they kept their Melbourne opponents inside by a metre or so.  

Should they win the ball, they have that metre start, but not just one of them, all of them.  It was why the Melbourne players were so far behind as the Saints linked up down the field.  

In sharp contrast the Demon players gave their opponents five metres and have fallen into the old defensive zone trap of “guarding grass”. 

This type of zone works on a basketball court where the space is limited.  On a football field it leaves holes everywhere.  To apply it to a football field, it is essential to concede the minimum space, but keep the opponent within striking range.

Back to the forwards. Tom Mac cannot run at the moment - he has not recovered from his foot injury and so cannot lead.  Weideman needs serious coaching in forward work.  His leads are non-existent and as a result the only time he is seen competing is in the air, contests he will not win until he adds strength to his body.  He also needs coaching on when to jump, as he runs under the flight of the ball too often.  

Importantly, ALL the forwards need to apply some pressure on their opponents.  Remember, Tom can’t run, but Petracca, Melksham, Weidemannn and even Hunt were nowhere to be seen. Between them they could only manage 7 tackles for the game! That’s the same number as Jack Viney.  This is where the opposition start their attacks, especially when the same players are unable to mark the ball to keep it in the forward 50m. 

Melbourne certainly didn’t come home with the chocolates at Easter.  Those failings that have re-surfaced again and again since the start of the season will surely standout even more  when facing a Richmond side which uses forward manic pressure and slingshot manoeuvres to score more than any other side. 

Is there any hope?  Probably not, for coming into an ANZAC eve match without ammunition or reserves is something not even those brave souls at Gallipoli faced.  

Demon fans are calling for various players to be replaced, but the options at Casey have either been tried and failed, or are simply not up to the task. We desperately do need a player or 2 in the forward line who can run and chase or who can mark the ball.  Losing one of the current batch in front of goal will not change the scoreline, given their output this season.  

The season is now over for the Demons.  In 2018, even in losing games, the side was competitive.  Failings could be sheeted home to youth and inexperience.  

Not so this year.  

We have returned to the stage where opposition get runs of unanswered goals, and we have no answer.  We have too many unfit, injured players unable to make a meaningful contribution, with little prospect of replacements to fill the gaps.  

And unlike the Christian faith, there is little prospect of resurrection in three days.  

Melbourne 3.3.21 4.5.29 4.8.32 7.13.55  

St Kilda 4.1.25 7.2.44 12.5.77 15.5.95  

Goals  

Melbourne Melksham Preuss 2 Brayshaw Harmes Preuss  

St Kilda Membrey 4 Kent 3 Billings Bruce 2 Acres Lonie Long Parker  

Best   

Melbourne Brayshaw Oliver Gawn Harmes Salem Hore

St Kilda Billings Kent Membrey Newnes Acres Steele Geary  

Injuries   

Melbourne Nil   

St Kilda Long (corked thigh)  

Reports 

Melbourne Nil  

St Kilda Nil

Umpires Chamberlain Whetton Harris  

Official crowd 35,558 at the MCG