28 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

The wings have to be on the wings. 

No they don’t...they have to be somewhere between the forward and back 50m line.

If a team wants to play an extra back then It has already been calculated it will take 2 seconds to get a “winger” into that position.  It is shorter than the time for an unrestricted bounce,tap and kick into the forward line.

I am sure the coaches are already looking at the percentage of  times a game that happens, and whether it is more worthwhile leaving the opposition winger un- marked. And both coaches will be doing the same thing. 

The thing I find funny:

- Let's copy West Coast, they won the Grand Final. Seems to be the trend. 

Which blatantly ignores that West Coast didn't copy Richmond who won the flag the year before them, they also only won the grand final because Sheed nailed a goal he would probably kick at best 3/10 times and maybe 1 in 20.

If the Pies won the flag with Grundy rucking 80% of the game, Cox only pinch hitting in the ruck and mostly being a big forward, Mihocek as an undersized 2nd key forward and De Goey in particular (plus Stephenson) as the most dangerous forwards then what would we be doing?

Gawn was worked over in the West Coast prelim after a huge year, he has to be better managed this year. But our real problems were our shaky backline and our lack of classy kicking in to the forward line. They are the errors we should be focusing on in to round 1.

Edited February 23, 20196 yr by DeeSpencer

5 minutes ago, george_on_the_outer said:

No they don’t...they have to be somewhere between the forward and back 50m line.

If a team wants to play an extra back then It has already been calculated it will take 2 seconds to get a “winger” into that position.  It is shorter than the time for an unrestricted bounce,tap and kick into the forward line.

I am sure the coaches are already looking at the percentage of  times a game that happens, and whether it is more worthwhile leaving the opposition winger un- marked. And both coaches will be doing the same thing. 

Fair point, I believe they have to be at some point along the side of the centre square, all of which I'd class as the wing , so yes they can be right next to the corner and very quickly back as a spare. Still, if they do that they'll be manned up with equal number or the team will be conceding a loose wingman. 

A dominant ruck could then hit the ball to the spare wings side and drastically increase their chances of winning the clearance. 

Or instruct the midfielders and forwards to kick/lead towards the fat side away from the wing who is sagging back as the spare defender.

No matter how you structure it I think the result will be: Clean centre clearances will become more valuable, messy centre clearances will still be of little value. 

58 minutes ago, Diamond_Jim said:

A great post Skuit.

Another thought is that it may well be Gawn who we look upon as the versatile second ruckman with Preuss doing the bulk of the heavy work.

Sounds stupid when you have an AA ruck but it may just be the edge

It's an intriguing thought.

I don't want to overstate the potential impact of the rule changes without even a single glimpse of them in action but they seem to undermine a core part of the game-plan we've been developing with die-hard commitment in the past couple of years - the high-forward press with heavy forward pressure - while at the same time particularly suiting some of our other prominent strengths, most specifically our contested center-square dominance - but also our fast-rebounding capacity and what could end up being close to the best starting back six in the league (basically 4 AA-squad-lever defenders in Lever, May, Jetta and Hibberd together with hopefully firing half-backs in Salem and Hunt). 

If our mids can still maintain a contested advantage without the best tap-ruckman (see 2017 Pedersen) - backed by a big, big body in Pruess who can nullify an opposition ruck and a strong defensive back-stop which will allow for a continued aggressive centre-square approach - then having Gawn stationed up forward and fresh for a centre-bomb would be a difficult proposition for most of our opponents. Pretty handy him being up there for any stoppage as well, while Pruess covers the get-out and presumably the opposition's first ruck is forced to enter the forward fifty to contest.   

Based on the small sample size, Preuss competes at ground level as well as in the air, looked solid in the ruck (without being spectacular), and is a massive unit that oppo players will need to both mind and be mindful of such is his sheer physicality 

I go back to the old Roos (at the Swans) maxim that you don’t recruit a player from another side without expecting and giving them the opportunity to be part of the best 22

14 minutes ago, whatwhatsaywhat said:

Based on the small sample size, Preuss competes at ground level as well as in the air, looked solid in the ruck (without being spectacular), and is a massive unit that oppo players will need to both mind and be mindful of such is his sheer physicality 

I go back to the old Roos (at the Swans) maxim that you don’t recruit a player from another side without expecting and giving them the opportunity to be part of the best 22

That maxim is true when they're seasoned and established, but that's not the case for an 8 game player. 

55 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

The thing I find funny:

- Let's copy West Coast, they won the Grand Final. Seems to be the trend. 

Which blatantly ignores that West Coast didn't copy Richmond who won the flag the year before them, they also only won the grand final because Sheed nailed a goal he would probably kick at best 3/10 times and maybe 1 in 20.

If the Pies won the flag with Grundy rucking 80% of the game, Cox only pinch hitting in the ruck and mostly being a big forward, Mihocek as an undersized 2nd key forward and De Goey in particular (plus Stephenson) as the most dangerous forwards then what would we be doing?

Gawn was worked over in the West Coast prelim after a huge year, he has to be better managed this year. But our real problems were our shaky backline and our lack of classy kicking in to the forward line. They are the errors we should be focusing on in to round 1.

WCE only won the grand final because Sheed kicked a clutch goal under pressure? lol. That's ridiculous dude. You've got to give credit when its due. 

You could say the same thing about Stephensons goal in the 1st qtr, or Hoskin elliot from the same pocket as Sheed in the first quarter, not to mention the darling drop in the goal square in the last minute that he would drop 1 out of 100 times. Like I said, credit when its due. WCE deserved to win. Especially considering they had to play an away game at the mcg with 70k pies fans.  

On 1/24/2019 at 1:27 PM, DemonLad5 said:

Obviously fair bit of water to go under the bridge before March 23rd with JLT form/injuries etc. but I’ll have a ping 

Unavailable: Lever 

B: Jetta - May - Hibberd 

HB: Salem - Frost - Hunt 

C.: Fritsch - Viney - Kolodjashnij 

HF: Melksham - Weideman - Petracca 

FF: Hannan - T.McDonald - Spargo 

FOLL: Gawn - Brayshaw - Oliver 

INT: Harmes - Vandenberg - Jones - Neal-Bullen 

EMG: O.Mac - Lewis - Hore 

unlucky: J.Smith, Preuss 

B: Jetta - May - Hibberd 

HB: Hunt - Frost - Fritsch

C.:  Vanders - Harmes - Salem 

HF: Melksham - Weideman - Petracca 

FF: J Smith - T.McDonald -  Neal Bullen

FOLL: Gawn - Brayshaw - Oliver 

INT: Viney - Preuss - Jones - Spargo 

EMG: O.Mac - Lewis - KK

This is a lot harder than it looks.

Edited February 23, 20196 yr by Demons11

3 hours ago, Dr.D said:

WCE only won the grand final because Sheed kicked a clutch goal under pressure? lol. That's ridiculous dude. You've got to give credit when its due. 

You could say the same thing about Stephensons goal in the 1st qtr, or Hoskin elliot from the same pocket as Sheed in the first quarter, not to mention the darling drop in the goal square in the last minute that he would drop 1 out of 100 times. Like I said, credit when its due. WCE deserved to win. Especially considering they had to play an away game at the mcg with 70k pies fans.  

Of course they deserved to win and it was a great effort, doesn’t change my point that if Sheed misses they probably lose. In which case are we even talking about the Eagles and 2 rucks or are we talking about the Pies ruck and forward set up? 

If the Pies win are we saying Petracca should play full forward like De Goey? And talking about the way Cox palms the ball to his smalls and encouraging Tommy Mc and Weid to do the same? 

19 hours ago, george_on_the_outer said:

No they don’t...they have to be somewhere between the forward and back 50m line.

If a team wants to play an extra back then It has already been calculated it will take 2 seconds to get a “winger” into that position.  It is shorter than the time for an unrestricted bounce,tap and kick into the forward line.

I am sure the coaches are already looking at the percentage of  times a game that happens, and whether it is more worthwhile leaving the opposition winger un- marked. And both coaches will be doing the same thing. 

Do the wings have to be on opposite sides or is that assumed?

20 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

Of course they deserved to win and it was a great effort, doesn’t change my point that if Sheed misses they probably lose. In which case are we even talking about the Eagles and 2 rucks or are we talking about the Pies ruck and forward set up? 

If the Pies win are we saying Petracca should play full forward like De Goey? And talking about the way Cox palms the ball to his smalls and encouraging Tommy Mc and Weid to do the same? 

yeah I agree everyone gets a bit reactionary. I think we should just play to our list strengths. The Collingwood ruck/fwd set up isnt what makes them dangerous. its degoey, Hoskin Elliott and Stephenson. elite speed. That's what we dont have. hunt does if he makes the 22. But for wce its elite key position players in kennedy and McGovern and darling. For us its inside mids with viney oliver harmes and brayshaw but I think our small fwds are underrated in hannan and melksham. 

fascinating discussion... people seem to gloss over that the Toiges essentially played without a quality ruckman and they didn't do too badly at all over the last two seasons.

A year ago the discussion was about whether ruckmen were relevant to the modern game and now we are looking at playing two.

11 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

yeah I agree everyone gets a bit reactionary. I think we should just play to our list strengths. The Collingwood ruck/fwd set up isnt what makes them dangerous. its degoey, Hoskin Elliott and Stephenson. elite speed. That's what we dont have. hunt does if he makes the 22. But for wce its elite key position players in kennedy and McGovern and darling. For us its inside mids with viney oliver harmes and brayshaw but I think our small fwds are underrated in hannan and melksham. 

So what's our style of ball movement and what forward line suits that?

Goodwin has said contested 1000 times since he's become coach and I think that's the basis of our style, then we restrict space with defensive pressure when the opposition has the ball then spread in to space with guys either open or getting one on one contests when we have the ball. 'Changing the angles' is a common phrase we heard the last few years that means kicking on angles to leads and then linking up and attacking space. 

Pretty much a boulder rolling down a hill but deftly bouncing side to side picking the right path.

What do we need for that? Forwards who provide the right balance between winning contests, spreading to space, closing space up and using the ball well to keep that bounder rolling.

2 mobile talls in T Mc and Weid provide targets for longer kicks, Spargo and ANB get contest to contest defending or getting over to be the 3rd guy in, the medium sized guys particularly Petracca and Melksham become mismatches because they can win one on ones in the air or on the ground. Hannan is a barometer, when he's on he can be the perfect 7th forward who can do anything as well.

On 2/23/2019 at 3:36 PM, DeeSpencer said:

The wings have to be on the wings. The forwards and backs have to be forward or back. So a clean centre clearance can give a midfielder more time to steady up and deliver inside 50 to an even number of forwards and backs. With a designated full forward out of the goal square who - if a team plays man to man - could have a decent amount of space in front of them and therefore a one on one contest in space.

The reality is more times than not teams will defend the centre clearance well enough to pressure the kick and there will still be a pack situation inside 50 or on the flank where the ball is bombed to.

That said, there's a chance for someone with some class like Brayshaw to get the ball on the run and deliver long (helps if you can do it on both feet) to a forward in space. Or an explosive player like Viney, Petracca or Vanders to burst through the square in to some clear room.

2 rucks may be important because you don't want to allow a team to get a clean break from the middle now you can't stack a spare back. I still think a good athletic key forward is a worthwhile option but using someone like Grigg wouldn't be because you can't be non competitive and let the opposition just feed the hit out straight to their best mids.

The wings have to be on the wings.......

Under current conditions then Rob Flower would win a zillion Brownlows If.... 

19 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

So what's our style of ball movement and what forward line suits that?

Goodwin has said contested 1000 times since he's become coach and I think that's the basis of our style, then we restrict space with defensive pressure when the opposition has the ball then spread in to space with guys either open or getting one on one contests when we have the ball. 'Changing the angles' is a common phrase we heard the last few years that means kicking on angles to leads and then linking up and attacking space. 

Pretty much a boulder rolling down a hill but deftly bouncing side to side picking the right path.

What do we need for that? Forwards who provide the right balance between winning contests, spreading to space, closing space up and using the ball well to keep that bounder rolling.

2 mobile talls in T Mc and Weid provide targets for longer kicks, Spargo and ANB get contest to contest defending or getting over to be the 3rd guy in, the medium sized guys particularly Petracca and Melksham become mismatches because they can win one on ones in the air or on the ground. Hannan is a barometer, when he's on he can be the perfect 7th forward who can do anything as well.

The problem with your setup is rotations.  Gawn, Tmac, and especially Weid need rest, so they’ll be off the ground for a cumulative total of up to 60% of game time (last years prelim).  So for about half the game the talls would be one of Tmac or Weid, plus Hannan.  Is that your intended setup?

Compare this to West Coast.  They never had 3 tall forwards on the ground at the same time. They rotated so they always had 2 tall forwards, for 100% of game time. 

22 hours ago, Demons11 said:

B: Jetta - May - Hibberd 

HB: Hunt - Frost - Fritsch

C.:  Vanders - Harmes - Salem 

HF: Melksham - Weideman - Petracca 

FF: J Smith - T.McDonald -  Neal Bullen

FOLL: Gawn - Brayshaw - Oliver 

INT: Viney - Preuss - Jones - Spargo 

EMG: O.Mac - Lewis - KK

This is a lot harder than it looks.

Unless he is injured, Lewis will play in Round 1.  It wouldn't surprise me if a few overtook him through the year, but to me, there is little doubt he gets named Round 1.

He goes to half back, Fritsch to half forward, Joel Smith out of the side.  Otherwise it's probably on the money, although for the first bounce of the year I'd like to see Viney in the guts and not on the bench.

Good team Demons11 but I reckon Jonesy Mellkshake KK and Shannan won't make it through fitness allowing Lewis  and Hore to play.

Oscar to play over Frosty also as talls in Power forward line.

Lewis to HB Oscar to CHB  Fritsch to FF and bench is Hore Pruess Viney And Spargo.

plenty of Rotations in all areas of side available.

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 5:04 PM, whatwhatsaywhat said:

Based on the small sample size, Preuss competes at ground level as well as in the air, looked solid in the ruck (without being spectacular), and is a massive unit that oppo players will need to both mind and be mindful of such is his sheer physicality 

I go back to the old Roos (at the Swans) maxim that you don’t recruit a player from another side without expecting and giving them the opportunity to be part of the best 22

 

On ‎2‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 5:18 PM, ProDee said:

That maxim is true when they're seasoned and established, but that's not the case for an 8 game player. 

For mine, the question of Pruess' role is our most intriguing selection issue.

I keep wondering why he agreed to come to MFC  when his chances of natural succession at Norf were much higher - Goldy is 3/4 years older than Gawn.

My suspicion ( no evidence or inside info mind you) is that he was offered the carrot of a regular gig if he was fit and showed some form. In other words Goody has a plan to play these two big blokes.

With the chance of quick forward forays from the 666 rule the option of a monolithic target has its appeal.

1 hour ago, Wiseblood said:

Unless he is injured, Lewis will play in Round 1.  It wouldn't surprise me if a few overtook him through the year, but to me, there is little doubt he gets named Round 1.

He goes to half back, Fritsch to half forward, Joel Smith out of the side.  Otherwise it's probably on the money, although for the first bounce of the year I'd like to see Viney in the guts and not on the bench.

I agree with you on Viney but I think they like to hold it back for 5 minutes at the start of a game

15 hours ago, Demons11 said:

I agree with you on Viney but I think they like to hold it back for 5 minutes at the start of a game

Yes l agree hold the Beast back and then with element of surprise attaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!    He is a little monster  takes after his Dad.