Must address in pre-season

[TGR 1,367]

1.  Goodwin does not rate leg-speed enough.  This must change.  We have an over-supply of one-paced tractors.  Hunt, Garlett and Frost were stamped for Casey until he had his hand forced with the latter.  Our wings yesterday were Tyson and Jones FCS.  Wingmen surely must be able to cover the ground.  Also Lewis as our +1 in defence slows an already sluggish team.

2. Due in some small part to factor 1, WE DONT SWITCH EVER.  We predictably kick down the line hoping that Gawn will bring it to ground.  With Frost and Hibberd back we should be switching at least to keep the opposition guessing, and forcing their attack to hang back and leave more room for our mids.

3. We can’t play tempo at all.  As Roos says, we are 100% ballistic.  We are nervous when we need to control the pill.  The Hawthorn last quarter proved this beyond doubt.

 

 

Yes, it was a gettable flag, but we have cracks under the wallpaper to patch.  A credit to our players for doing so well despite this.

 

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

Don't disagree on point 1 but Garlett and Hunt reinforced in todays VFL GF that they are way off being the answer. Its a shame neither Stretch nor Kent couldn't get an injury free run second half of the year. 

[Demons11 7,050]

If anyone said we would make a prelim at the start of the year and lose to WC in Perth you would have taken that in a heart beat not withstanding the loss was a poor way to go out.  

Our best players are all under 24 and continue to get better every year. Oliver and Brayshaw are absolute stars.    We have the best ruckman in the comp and our most important player (Viney) and new gun recruit (Lever) missed the majority of the season.

No big changes needed.  

[Engorged Onion 10,223]

3 minutes ago, TGR said:

1.  Goodwin does not rate leg-speed enough.  This must change.  We have an over-supply of one-paced tractors.  Hunt, Garlett and Frost were stamped for Casey until he had his hand forced with the latter.  Our wings yesterday were Tyson and Jones FCS.  Wingmen surely must be able to cover the ground.  Also Lewis as our +1 in defence slows an already sluggish team.

2. Due in some small part to factor 1, WE DONT SWITCH EVER.  We predictably kick down the line hoping that Gawn will bring it to ground.  With Frost and Hibberd back we should be switching at least to keep the opposition guessing, and forcing their attack to hang back and leave more room for our mids.

3. We can’t play tempo at all.  As Roos says, we are 100% ballistic.  We are nervous when we need to control the pill.  The Hawthorn last quarter proved this beyond doubt.

 

 

Yes, it was a gettable flag, but we have cracks under the wallpaper to patch.  A credit to our players for doing so well despite this.

 

Sounds like you're still tired and emotional @TGR

I agree with the sentiment on point one, and completely disagree on the latter two points.

Point 1... If Stretch wasn't injured, I'd dare say he'd be the winger. Tyson I feel was insurance for the contested ball as well, and yes he's not a winger. 

Point 2 - Watch the Geelong and Hawthorn game... the team constantly goes on little 45 kick forays to open up space...this happens week in week out...  If you mean switching RIGHT across the ground... we do it from time to time, but remember - our game style did get us to a prelim...so for what purpose does bringing in more switching mean? Part of our success has been able to get the pill to our players relatively straight in front...and the system seems to be about doing it more so from the centre of the ground, rather than within 60 metres and centering it.

Point 3 - Watch how we iced games after the Geelong loss....particularly the Geelong and Hawthorn final... the last 10-12 minutes of each game was ALL about tempo football.

 

[dl4e 5,851]

All 3 points are valid. The player that melbourne most needs is a fast midfielder or 2. And we look to be chasing May ?????? Jordan Lewis lost me yesterday. He played like a bloke who didn't want to play another game for the year.

[John Crow Batty 8,878]

21 minutes ago, dl4e said:

All 3 points are valid. The player that melbourne most needs is a fast midfielder or 2. And we look to be chasing May ?????? Jordan Lewis lost me yesterday. He played like a bloke who didn't want to play another game for the year.

We need a decent chop out for Gawn also. He gets shagged out at seasons end and if he goes down there’s no reasonable replacement. No way to plan to win a flag with a tired ruckman or no replacement. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by america de cali

[DeeSpencer 26,071]

I'm not convinced we never switch, I think we do ok in that regard but it comes when our backline is on top so are actually driving the ball out. If the backline are under the pump they lose their confidence.

Fritsch and Vanders on the wings would actually be switching weapons. Both really good size and strong in the air. You'd look up at half back and back them in to win it if you kicked to advantage. Adding another wing is certainly a priority so we have depth and quality.

Tyson and Jones are getting the games because they cover the ground in an endurance fashion. It's endurance that our mids need. Certainly pace is required too but we need that hard gut running. You can't just throw a fast guy on the wing, they need the tank.

Viney, Oliver and Gus getting fitter to spread out for the switches would help.

It's:
1. Wing
2. Proper small forwards - I like Spargo but he's a flanker, similarly ANB is a midfield connector type, not a forward. Hannan if anything is a flanker, he doesn't have the right speed/agility tackling mix
3. Key defensive upgrades if possible
4. A skilled back flanker to replace Lewis
5. Ruck depth to ease the load for Max

[John Crow Batty 8,878]

2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I'm not convinced we never switch, I think we do ok in that regard but it comes when our backline is on top so are actually driving the ball out. If the backline are under the pump they lose their confidence.

Fritsch and Vanders on the wings would actually be switching weapons. Both really good size and strong in the air. You'd look up at half back and back them in to win it if you kicked to advantage. Adding another wing is certainly a priority so we have depth and quality.

Tyson and Jones are getting the games because they cover the ground in an endurance fashion. It's endurance that our mids need. Certainly pace is required too but we need that hard gut running. You can't just throw a fast guy on the wing, they need the tank.

Viney, Oliver and Gus getting fitter to spread out for the switches would help.

It's:
1. Wing
2. Proper small forwards - I like Spargo but he's a flanker, similarly ANB is a midfield connector type, not a forward. Hannan if anything is a flanker, he doesn't have the right speed/agility tackling mix
3. Key defensive upgrades if possible
4. A skilled back flanker to replace Lewis
5. Ruck depth to ease the load for Max

What’s the use of having endurance players who are permanently chasing 5 metres behind their opponent, getting caught with the ball and lay only one tackle between them? It was obvious Tyson and Jones were an identified liability against the WC outside run. 

[DeeSpencer 26,071]

Just now, america de cali said:

What’s the use of having endurance players who are permanently chasing 5 metres behind their opponent, getting caught with the ball and lay only one tackle between them? It was obvious Tyson and Jones were an identified liability against the WC outside run. 

I'm not saying they are good, just they are (possibly) the better option than having guys who fatigue and are then completely useless.

Vanders, Tyson and Jones got the job done because our inside mids won against the Hawks and Cats.

The Eagles outside mids are Masten, Sheed and Redden. None of them are speedsters. Yeo, Shuey and Hutchings won it on the inside, that's what killed us. Plus the Eagles forwards got real pressure on when our forwards couldn't, and the Eagles half forwards kept bobbing up in to space where our half forwards ran in to each other.

If we had proper wingmen we could've extended the game out more and worked away from the contest, so it's certainly a needs area, but we went with the midfield that was doing the job when play A - win the ball in tight worked.

[71 Molloy 266]

28 minutes ago, Danelska said:

 If you mean switching RIGHT across the ground... we do it from time to time, but remember - our game style did get us to a prelim...so for what purpose does bringing in more switching mean?

It makes teams work harder to defend instead of sitting down the line.  A bit of extra fatigue to open up hole and also deny teams the ball when they get a run on.

We didn't do this at all early yesterday when WC got a run on.  

[godees 873]

Definitely agree on point 1. We need some wings with pace. Fritsch, Stretch and Hunt are probably the only current options on the list. Must go to the draft on this. A quick small forward is also essential in this trade/draft period

[Little Goffy 14,639]

I feel confident that it is not so much a case of having cracks under wallpaper, simply because the coaches would be fully aware of what we need to add. This isn't an 'oops we forgot to sort that out' moment, it is just time to get that next step done.

Will be interesting to see how Spargo, Hannan, Fritsch and Stretch progress next year. Even if they aren't outright speedy, they certainly aren't one-paced plodders.

With the half-dozen places likely to open on our list, and a draft that seems to me (only on reading, no claims to real knowledge) to have a great many speedy smalls, the 2018 draft might just be Jason Taylor's personal Grand Final.

[Axis of Bob 11,841]

I disagree completely with your first two points. I just think that you are flat out wrong on them.

Goodwin certainly rates speed highly and this has been shown in selection and also in recruiting. 

Early in the season Tyson was in the VFL and had to fight his way back because he didn't like the balance of the team. Late in the season he brought in J Smith because of his excellent pace. He picked and brought back Hannan because of his pace, despite his ordinary form. He kept Jeffy and Hunt longer than he should have. He had shown that he is willing to drop class (Tyson, Fritsch) for peace and competitiveness.

He likes pace not so much for the ability to win the ball out wide and run the footy like it's the WAFL, but because speed creates contests, which allows our contested guys to go to work. That's why he didn't pick Frost, because he didn't trust him to make a contest. That's also why Jeffy and Hunt didn't play .... because they couldn't be trusted to make enough contests. 

Our game is about creating and winning contests. So we pick competitors and guys with pace. Lever's absence but us significantly in defence because he had pace and makes contests.

You're looking at a group of players that missed and seeing 'players with pace', but you're not labelling then directly. You should be looking at them as 'players who don't consistently make contests'.

Also, your view of wingmen is very outdated. Wingmen aren't what they used to be. They're just midfielders that don't start in the centre bounce nowadays. 

Edited September 23, 2018 by Axis of Bob
Saw the wrong "you're". Hmphh.

[Graeme Yeats' Mullet 6,778]

Agree mostly with all 3, although on 2 our game plan calls for centering / switching and we do it most if the time until we're under pressure, and then we stop

For the how, i think we need to

1. SPEED

- Identify our current speed, and play them in appropriate positions

- BRING IN SPEED

2 & 3 KICKING

- Get some really good kickers (a la Hawthorn of past 10 years), if you look at our mids/flankers tell me who are the elite kickers? Who don't you worry about when they're kicking on the 45 degrees to attack? I don't think we have any elite (a few good ones) but mostly average kickers

- Lift focus on kicking precision - it's a learned skill and our good kickers can improve a bit, and the average ones a lot

 

Our recruitment has been great for hard ball getters, I'm not criticising this at all because it was desperately needed and got us to this years result but next steps are outside speed and precision

I reckon we have 8 spots available on the list due to these outs...

Retired 2: Balic and Vince

Delist/Trade 4 (uncontracted): Bugg, Johnstone, One of (King, Filipovic), One of (Pederson, T. Smith)

Trade 2 or 3 (contracted): Garlett, One or Two of (Tyson, Hunt, Kent, .... others?)

 

This means we need to re-sign:

AvB, JKH, Keilty, McKenna, Two others (e.g. King, Pederson)

 

Big task for the list managers without much in the way of picks... In fact I've probably gone overs calling for 8 changes (??)

Edited September 23, 2018 by Graeme Yeats' Mullet

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

1 minute ago, Axis of Bob said:

Also, your view of wingmen is very outdated. Wingmen aren't what they used to be. They're just midfielders that don't start in the centre bounce nowadays. 

Would have agreed on this 2-3 years ago. However I think the role of the hard running wingman who pushes hard back and creates the central connection and then dashes forward as an option is back in vogue. If it was just another mid then wouldn't Tyson and Jones be able to play the role close to as aptly to how they play in the pivot? We desperately need to develop them on our list (Stretch, Baker, Hannan, Fritsch, Kent) or go and bring some in. 

[Older demon 2,779]

28 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

1. Wing
2. Proper small forwards - I like Spargo but he's a flanker, similarly ANB is a midfield connector type, not a forward. Hannan if anything is a flanker, he doesn't have the right speed/agility tackling mix
3. Key defensive upgrades if possible
4. A skilled back flanker to replace Lewis
5. Ruck depth to ease the load for Max

Nailed it.

At Casey today it was never more evident of the serious need for a backup ruckman. Pittonet had 55 hit outs and Box Hill 80 to our 22,  resulting in winning clearances and giving mids an armchair ride. Pederson and Smith are not ruckmen. If Preuss wants to come to Melbourne then get him. I suspect King and Filipovic won't stay on

I feel the need for speed. West Coast and Pies have blistering speed and run.

We were 1 tall short yesterday in finals conditions as WC marked everything

Jones on one wing and Tyson on the other with Lewis down back leaves us susceptible to pace and teams that switch quickly out of defence

It is a great effort to get to the prelim but to improve and maintain momentum there are lots of gaps open.

It will be interesting exit interviews this week 

[Axis of Bob 11,841]

Just now, big_red_fire_engine said:

Would have agreed on this 2-3 years ago. However I think the role of the hard running wingman who pushes hard back and creates the central connection and then dashes forward as an option is back in vogue. 

A few things.

Firstly this is the role of the half forwards now. The midfielders are now around the footy in defence and that's why we have guys like Hannan, Melksham and Petracca forward of the footy to link up with pace in transition.

Secondly, you can talk about the mix of midfielders but the wings are just past of that equation. 

The leading uncontested player in the ground yesterday easy Redden, who couldn't pull skin off custard. Then Duggan at hair back, Dom Shred (who may be slower than Redden!) and Cripps, who is a half forward.

Or game is about winning contested footy. If you get well beaten in the staple of your game then you're always going to look slow 

We have slow players, but the idea that Goodwin doesn't rate and value speed is just nonsensical.

[TGR 1,367]

49 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I'm not convinced we never switch, I think we do ok in that regard but it comes when our backline is on top so are actually driving the ball out. If the backline are under the pump they lose their confidence.

Fritsch and Vanders on the wings would actually be switching weapons. Both really good size and strong in the air. You'd look up at half back and back them in to win it if you kicked to advantage. Adding another wing is certainly a priority so we have depth and quality.

Tyson and Jones are getting the games because they cover the ground in an endurance fashion. It's endurance that our mids need. Certainly pace is required too but we need that hard gut running. You can't just throw a fast guy on the wing, they need the tank.

Viney, Oliver and Gus getting fitter to spread out for the switches would help.

Time that our supporters started judging us as a team, and players as individuals, against the quality fit teams in harsh environments.

 

How many switches v. Richmond?  None.

How many switches v. West Coast yesterday? None that I remember, but I was sitting on level 5.

 

How many v. Collingwood? None or 1???

[buck_nekkid 6,046]

Wings of Baker and Stretch, plus one additional fast outside mid with kicking skills

at least one, if not two, xfactor small forwards

at least 1, if not 2, relief rucks (Bradtke as one of these?)

2 understudy midfielders for injury cover

petty to develop, lever back in.

on the block: king, flipper, McKenna, Bugg, Pedo, 

at high risk (trade or exit):  Tim Smith, JKH, Tyson, Johnson (can he be nev understudy?), Kielty (will need to debut next year)

serious conversations : Lewis and Jones.  

 

 

 

[Older demon 2,779]

I believe I read today that Tim Smith has been offered a 1 year contract that is yet to be announced

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,233]

33 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

A few things.

Firstly this is the role of the half forwards now. The midfielders are now around the footy in defence and that's why we have guys like Hannan, Melksham and Petracca forward of the footy to link up with pace in transition.

Secondly, you can talk about the mix of midfielders but the wings are just past of that equation. 

The leading uncontested player in the ground yesterday easy Redden, who couldn't pull skin off custard. Then Duggan at hair back, Dom Shred (who may be slower than Redden!) and Cripps, who is a half forward.

Or game is about winning contested footy. If you get well beaten in the staple of your game then you're always going to look slow 

We have slow players, but the idea that Goodwin doesn't rate and value speed is just nonsensical.

You don't seem to have answered my query rather answer ones that I didn't even pose. Your wings don't need to be quick but they need to be able to run hard and carry well. The option to be quick is a bonus but not if you cant repeat run or if you turn it over on connection. Think Sidebottom and Gaff (the 2 All Australian wingman), neither are fast but run themselves into the ground and still connect with quality. You have confirmed though that midfielders who play in the middle also need to get uncontested ball and started to get that right balance over the last 6 weeks but clearly not yesterday. 

Note I am not saying that Goodwin doesn't rate speed. I just don't think it has been a priority over the contest and he has not had reasonable ones without flaws at his disposal.

 

[dieter 3,325]

17 minutes ago, Older demon said:

I believe I read today that Tim Smith has been offered a 1 year contract that is yet to be announced

Apparently he had poor pre-season preparation due to injury which meant 2018 was always a behind the 8 ball year.  He does need to get his shite together though, hopefully he turns into a Mihocek, stops playing the list clogger role.

[layzie 33,990]

I agree we need to add more pace but let’s not over correct on this. Leg speed is great to have but I think equally important is fine tuning and executing our game plan better. Speed of ball movement is just as important and the fastest way to move the ball will always be this way with the odd run and carry.

[DeeSpencer 26,071]

45 minutes ago, TGR said:

Time that our supporters started judging us as a team, and players as individuals, against the quality fit teams in harsh environments.

 

How many switches v. Richmond?  None.

How many switches v. West Coast yesterday? None that I remember, but I was sitting on level 5.

 

How many v. Collingwood? None or 1???

Whilst I agree you have to judge teams against the best sides I think it's fair to count the finals wins against Geelong and Hawthorn and not just the games we lost. 

Switching or no switching we moved the ball very well against the Eagles and Giants late in the year, and against the Cats (first quarter and all game out of the backline) and the Hawks.

Our ball movement was good when the midfield held up. The 3 biggest losses for the year (Hawks, Pies, Eagles) were all midfield beltings. We have to improve the outside personnel, I'm in agreement there, but that can be true and it can also be true that we did about as well as we could've done this year trying to maximise our inside midfield power and midfield running.

Also look across the competition at the wingers in the best sides:
Eagles - Masten, Sheed, Redden
Coll - Mayne, Phillips
Rich - Grigg, McIntosh, Graham
Hawks - Smith, Henderson

It's big body endurance runners, only one of which is Smith is super quick and not many who are very skilled. And even Smith would rotate to half forward or half back to find more space.

[Precard 10]

Need some outside quality, hopefully we can get back in the first round of a good draft if we trade hogan.