POST MATCH DISCUSSION - Round 21

[Cards13 9,117]

54 minutes ago, monoccular said:

And as I recall, several more of our close losses were associated with periods of dominance with ZERO scoreboard pressure.  Does Goodone acknowledge this?  Does he address this?

As above, it has cost us a guaranteed top 4 position, and quite possibly finals.

What good is a healthy foot if one can't use it to kick straight??

The plethora of key fwds we have in the 2s is really exciting... 

[praha 11,240]

22 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

The melbourne football club actually exists.

You're confusing reality with faith. We know the Melbourne Football Club exists. All faith is blind because faith has a prerequisite that you don't know what, when, how or why something may happen. Proof of God is irrelevant. Faith in anything is blind and there is nothing wrong with having faith. It's not the existence of the club you have faith in. I dare say faith in a club is more futile than faith in God, because there's no potential of those expectations of God leading to disappointment. Having faith in a club like Melbourne sets you up for disappointment because there is a higher level of expectation and standards. No one is expecting God's existence to suddenly be proven. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by praha

[layzie 34,014]

34 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

I am optimistic that we can ad I don't need mercy from any god as I don't believe in that tripe.

Neither do I. Only meant it tongue in cheek. Something questioning your sanity would have been better. 

[chook fowler 19,551]

31 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

The melbourne football club actually exists.

MFC has proven there is a hell.

[old dee 23,872]

1 minute ago, chook fowler said:

MFC has proven there is a hell.

Golden chook best for the day!

[John Demonic 5,850]

10 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

MFC has proven there is a hell.

The definition of insanity would be staking your emotions on how a bunch of 18-25 year olds perform at their workplace ?

[bing181 9,328]

27 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Our gameplan gave us the opportunity to kick a winning score in all games bar maybe the Hawks and Pies

All we need to know at the moment.

The problem isn't kicking winning scores, it's keeping the opposition from kicking winning scores.

The Access All Areas video shows a few examples of why/where we're falling short in that regard. Still got a massively inexperienced list, and while players may be strong in one area, they're still either not strong across the board, or making poor decisions on what they need to be prioritising. The Salem/Papley was a classic case, where Salem is trying to juggle his role as clearance/disposal conduit (standing off the play, waiting for the ball to come out of a stoppage), with his role as a defender. He got it wrong, and it won't be the first time, but give him another season or two and he'll get better at that kind of decision-making.

[drysdale demon 4,837]

14 minutes ago, praha said:

You're confusing reality with faith. We know the Melbourne Football Club exists. All faith is blind because faith has a prerequisite that you don't know what, when, how or why something may happen. Proof of God is irrelevant. Faith in anything is blind and there is nothing wrong with having faith. It's not the existence of the club you have faith in. I dare say faith in a club is more futile than faith in God, because there's no potential of those expectations of God leading to disappointment. Having faith in a club like Melbourne sets you up for disappointment because there is a higher level of expectation and standards. No one is expecting God's existence to suddenly be proven. 

I am not disappointed in following the club,I would rather them to have been more successful in recent times but it what it is. Don't tell me that I am confusing faith with reality, I know exactly how I feel about both subjects. 

[bing181 9,328]

8 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

MFC 16 players < 100 games.  Sydney 12

MFC 3 players > 150 games.  Sydney 7.

Yes. But the other point about that, is look at how much finals experience there are in those players: it's not just the  > 150 game players, even the younger players have the kind of big-game experience that ours are severely lacking. The bulk of Sunday's team is the same as the one that finished top of the ladder in 2016 and played in the GF.

And then there's the class: look at how many Swans players have been AA compared to us.

 

[bing181 9,328]

Sums it up really. Coaches' votes:

 

MELBOURNE v SYDNEY
10 Isaac Heeney (SYD)
7 Jake Lloyd (SYD)
4 Aliir Aliir (SYD)
3 Angus Brayshaw (MELB)
3 George Hewett (SYD)
2 Tom Papley (SYD)
1 Lance Franklin (SYD)

Edited August 13, 2018 by bing181

[titan_uranus 25,045]

53 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Our gameplan gave us the opportunity to kick a winning score in all games bar maybe the Hawks and Pies and even then you could argue we let our early dominance go wasted against the Hawks. I guess you could argue a better gameplan would see us with even more opportunities but I find it hard to blame the coach when players make skill/execution errors as they did yesterday setting up forward play and kicking set shots

Agreed.

That's 18 out of 20 games this year in which we've had more than enough of the general play to be able to kick a winning score but in six of those games (one-third), we've failed to capitalise and/or simultaneously conceded too easily.

17 minutes ago, bing181 said:

All we need to know at the moment.

The problem isn't kicking winning scores, it's keeping the opposition from kicking winning scores.

The Access All Areas video shows a few examples of why/where we're falling short in that regard. Still got a massively inexperienced list, and while players may be strong in one area, they're still either not strong across the board, or making poor decisions on what they need to be prioritising. The Salem/Papley was a classic case, where Salem is trying to juggle his role as clearance/disposal conduit (standing off the play, waiting for the ball to come out of a stoppage), with his role as a defender. He got it wrong, and it won't be the first time, but give him another season or two and he'll get better at that kind of decision-making.

Largely, yes.

But the problem is also kicking winning scores against good sides.

Yesterday we held Sydney to their season average score. We generated far more inside 50s and scoring shots but failed to turn those two statistics into a winning score.

Compare that with the St Kilda game, for example, when St Kilda well exceeded their season average score whilst we scored 100+, which is our average.

[Willmoy1947 4,140]

45 minutes ago, praha said:

You're confusing reality with faith. We know the Melbourne Football Club exists. All faith is blind because faith has a prerequisite that you don't know what, when, how or why something may happen. Proof of God is irrelevant. Faith in anything is blind and there is nothing wrong with having faith. It's not the existence of the club you have faith in. I dare say faith in a club is more futile than faith in God, because there's no potential of those expectations of God leading to disappointment. Having faith in a club like Melbourne sets you up for disappointment because there is a higher level of expectation and standards. No one is expecting God's existence to suddenly be proven. 

"God knows how useless Religion is at the moment"

[Adam The God 30,421]

1 hour ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

Our gameplan gave us the opportunity to kick a winning score in all games bar maybe the Hawks and Pies and even then you could argue we let our early dominance go wasted against the Hawks. I guess you could argue a better gameplan would see us with even more opportunities but I find it hard to blame the coach when players make skill/execution errors as they did yesterday setting up forward play and kicking set shots

A good coach has a back up plan. If you're failing to kick straight, why would you also not try to prevent easy exits from your forward 50?

I don't understand why you wouldn't try to fix areas of your structures that are not working. On this point, I'd also argue that preventing easy exits from our forward fifty would further contribute to our want to lock the ball inside 50/get repeat inside 50s. If we're pressuring those exits, there's more likelihood we can set up defensively down the ground and be ready to counter straight back inside 50.

Yeah, Goody didn't lose us the game. Our kicking did, but he still hasn't addressed how to play teams on the MCG when they play us that way. Yet, it's been happening pretty much all year against good opposition. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by A F

[Deecisive 1,709]

i still dont understand this hostility to the coach, if our players had kicked straight then we would not be having this conversation. yes he played some players that did not work, but at the same time he has played others that did during the year. A few weeks ago a lot of supporters were bagging frost selection are now praising it and next week may be bagging it again.

All plans go out the window once the ball is bounced. you deal with what you have at the time. We cannot have a team waiting for the coach to tell them the obvious. Our players did not adjust, they did not man up and they did not cover/chase.

We can match it with any team on our day, our problem is our sometime crap kicking, what sort of score would we have had if even half of those kicks that went to aliir went to one of our players. we have proven we can get the ball into our foward 50 against all sides, what we do with it inside 50 is the main problem. I think jeffy needs a rest, he does not chase and pressure as i would expect a small forward.  our players seem to think we have a high marking forward line so bomb it in. We dont, Hogan and mcDonald are good marks but not consistently in packs. they do best one on one.  we need our players to take more care when sending it into our forward line. try putting it in front of our players so they can run onto to it. kick it back. spread. Lastly MFC should really invest in a sports psychologist to help hogan with his runup and kicking. he does not need a kicking coach he knows how to kick, what he needs to learn is to relax and get his runup flowing and hopefully his kicking will improve. 

[Earl Hood 6,101]

2 hours ago, praha said:

Anyone who thinks we lost because of our kicking for goal is clueless. 

watch the second quarter. watch our defensive awareness (or lack thereof). Watch the latest All Access video on the AFL website.

The club hasn't played finals in 11 years, we continue to buy memberships...watching that [censored] is infuriating. It was round 23 all over again. They were two down on the bench ffs. We are in year 5 of a rebuild. we mark the ball at half back with 90 seconds left, and look for a short pass. How dense can you be? How much of a loser can you be?

To make finals we have to -- in two weeks -- break every stereotype that has clouded the club for 50 years. We haven't done it in 5 decades. How are we going to do it in 2 weeks?

Interesting first sentence Praha. After being there and seeing the disaster unfold I then later viewed the first 2 quarters on replay today. 

At the time I said that our inaccuracy at goal in the first two quarters will do us in. We missed 7 set shots, 6 of which were within the 35 meter and near enough to be in front! We could usually expect 5 goals 2, instead we got zero of 7. We had a similar number of snaps for goal often from within 30 meters and no angle and again got zero 7 ( I am not including the goals that were kicked). We could usually expect 2 or 3 goals from those shots.

My point is our game plan is not sophisticated, it is about attack at all cost, kick or handball the ball forward, there is no tempo football, no holding possession at all costs. Just pump it forward. That very simple game plan comes from the coach.

With zero sophistication in our play then we must score goals when the opportunity arises to stay in front and so we must score when we mark inside 40m and dead in front. On 6 occasions in the first half we marked inside that arc and should have enjoyed the 36 point increase, instead we got 6 points in total in reward. And the 6 or 7 snaps at goal from inside 30 metres that missed are an anomaly, I would expect at least 2 of those to go through but not this week.

Inaccuracy cost us big time on the weekend. We could easily expect an extra 7 or 8 goals in that match and then we win. And yes that win would have been full of turnovers and missed passes, handballs and tackles but we still win despite our ineptitude. But yes will get caught out in finals but that is where we are at. 

[chook fowler 19,551]

14 minutes ago, Deecisive said:

i still dont understand this hostility to the coach, if our players had kicked straight then we would not be having this conversation. yes he played some players that did not work, but at the same time he has played others that did during the year. A few weeks ago a lot of supporters were bagging frost selection are now praising it and next week may be bagging it again.

All plans go out the window once the ball is bounced. you deal with what you have at the time. We cannot have a team waiting for the coach to tell them the obvious. Our players did not adjust, they did not man up and they did not cover/chase.

We can match it with any team on our day, our problem is our sometime crap kicking, what sort of score would we have had if even half of those kicks that went to aliir went to one of our players. we have proven we can get the ball into our foward 50 against all sides, what we do with it inside 50 is the main problem. I think jeffy needs a rest, he does not chase and pressure as i would expect a small forward.  our players seem to think we have a high marking forward line so bomb it in. We dont, Hogan and mcDonald are good marks but not consistently in packs. they do best one on one.  we need our players to take more care when sending it into our forward line. try putting it in front of our players so they can run onto to it. kick it back. spread. Lastly MFC should really invest in a sports psychologist to help hogan with his runup and kicking. he does not need a kicking coach he knows how to kick, what he needs to learn is to relax and get his runup flowing and hopefully his kicking will improve. 

There are coaching issues e.g our inability to stop multiple goals to be kicked against us in rapid succession - 7 in a row on Sunday. We won’t man up one on one to stem the flow. The huge discrepancy in uncontested marks allowing the Swans to dictate play. The disconnection between the midfield and forward line. Jessie Hogan’s leading patterns and some poor selection gaffs. These are coaching problems and wouldn’t have happened under Roos.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

1 hour ago, Chook said:

And yet you believe in the Melbourne Football Club. I think that's irony.

 

1 hour ago, drysdale demon said:

The melbourne football club actually exists.

 

But the gods sometimes give us good things, like rain for our crops, and good harvests ... protect us from our enemies ... give us good fortune ...

Whereas the Melbourne Football Club ... gives us 50 year plagues and turns us to salt. It is a cruel and vengeful football club.

[jnrmac 20,189]

2 of Sydney's goals in the second qtr were from marks that travelled 7-8 metres. One of them was in a play where fu**face Nicholls gave free because of our runner.

 

[jnrmac 20,189]

20 minutes ago, Earl Hood said:

Interesting first sentence Praha. After being there and seeing the disaster unfold I then later viewed the first 2 quarters on replay today. 

At the time I said that our inaccuracy at goal in the first two quarters will do us in. We missed 7 set shots, 6 of which were within the 35 meter and near enough to be in front! We could usually expect 5 goals 2, instead we got zero of 7. We had a similar number of snaps for goal often from within 30 meters and no angle and again got zero 7 ( I am not including the goals that were kicked). We could usually expect 2 or 3 goals from those shots.

My point is our game plan is not sophisticated, it is about attack at all cost, kick or handball the ball forward, there is no tempo football, no holding possession at all costs. Just pump it forward. That very simple game plan comes from the coach.

With zero sophistication in our play then we must score goals when the opportunity arises to stay in front and so we must score when we mark inside 40m and dead in front. On 6 occasions in the first half we marked inside that arc and should have enjoyed the 36 point increase, instead we got 6 points in total in reward. And the 6 or 7 snaps at goal from inside 30 metres that missed are an anomaly, I would expect at least 2 of those to go through but not this week.

Inaccuracy cost us big time on the weekend. We could easily expect an extra 7 or 8 goals in that match and then we win. And yes that win would have been full of turnovers and missed passes, handballs and tackles but we still win despite our ineptitude. But yes will get caught out in finals but that is where we are at. 

They were 2 men down and we let them control the footy and chip it around. Our brainless leaders kept bombing it to Aliir and Heeney. We should have been controlling the footy and making them run at us - tiring them out.

We also kept turning over the footy like under 12s. When they got a run on we had no idea what to do. Its happened 6 times this year and our coaching panel are clueless on how to deal with it.

Forget the kicking, the above is the reason we will go nowhere even if we do make it. No footy IQ amongst anyone playing.

Edited August 13, 2018 by jnrmac

[In Harmes Way 7,823]

MRO findings for round 21:

Clarry charged with making umpire contact with Fleer (careless). Maybe that’s why he only paid us 1 free for the day.

Given our luck, I was fully expecting OMac to be charged for intentionally cleaning up Chelsea Roffey and getting 2 weeks ?

[Deecisive 1,709]

11 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

There are coaching issues e.g our inability to stop multiple goals to be kicked against us in rapid succession - 7 in a row on Sunday. We won’t man up one on one to stem the flow. The huge discrepancy in uncontested marks allowing the Swans to dictate play. The disconnection between the midfield and forward line. Jessie Hogan’s leading patterns and some poor selection gaffs. These are coaching problems and wouldn’t have happened under Roos.

 

Sorry but i disagree Chook, we have to have players out there who need to understand the game and take responsibility for their actions.  The coach can only do so much from where he is. he can swing players around and he can send out different orders, but he has 18 players on the field he needs to communicate new instructions too. I believe the players need to take responsibility for not manning up, not chasing, not tackling. Jessies poor leading pattern is Jessies issue that Jessie needs to fix, a runner can go out and tell him and tell him but Jessie needs to do it. I think it highly likely that the runner would probably have also told Jessie to take his time and kick straight.  I doubt our coach told the players to bomb the ball into the 50 straight to Aliir, but they did.  As Sun Tzu said No plans survive enemy contact. our players need to be thinking, not just running around kicking the ball as long as they can to the opposition to send it straight back over their heads.

[Wolfturdo 123]

1 hour ago, drysdale demon said:

I am not disappointed in following the club,I would rather them to have been more successful in recent times but it what it is. Don't tell me that I am confusing faith with reality, I know exactly how I feel about both subjects. 

What do you have faith in then? It’s all well and good saying what you don’t believe in and that it’s tripe but why don’t you tell us what you do believe in? 

[chook fowler 19,551]

Also Sun Tzu said - “ Things are not as dim as they sim”

[Wolfturdo 123]

1 hour ago, layzie said:

Neither do I. Only meant it tongue in cheek. Something questioning your sanity would have been better. 

I don’t think any of these people even know what sanity is. 

[Wolfturdo 123]

1 hour ago, bing181 said:

Yes. But the other point about that, is look at how much finals experience there are in those players: it's not just the  > 150 game players, even the younger players have the kind of big-game experience that ours are severely lacking. The bulk of Sunday's team is the same as the one that finished top of the ladder in 2016 and played in the GF.

And then there's the class: look at how many Swans players have been AA compared to us.

 

What?