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41 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

You're right Mahoney's a dunce, he thought he was trading up so Taylor could take Walter Payton at 4.  Imagine his surprise when that didn't happen!

.... What?

You shouldn't drink and post.

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6 hours ago, FarNorthernD said:

Sorry I know it wasn’t directed at me but I couldn’t remember the trading they did in 2015 draft to get Oliver so l looked it up. 

Melbourne gave up

Pick 6

Pick 29 and

Our 2016 first round pick which ended up being pick 9

Gold Coast gave us

Pick 3 (that ended up being 4)

Pick 10 and 

Pick 43

So that all looks pretty fair pick wise to both clubs but we ended up with Oliver so it is a monster, monster, monster win to us. 

So we gave up ~3870 points for 3810 points.

Lost the equivalent of pick 68 to get the pick that our recruiting team requested.

That wasn't an accident,  we knew who we wanted,  we weren't just throwing picks around for fun. 

So they were after Oliver (who is close to the best player in that draft and one of the best mids in the comp) and Weid (who was one of the best KPFs of the draft plus insurance against a Hogan go home factor).

Pretty sure we'd be happy with that.  

 

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3 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

.... What?

You shouldn't drink and post.

You're the the dope who bizarrely introduced irrelevant and obscure NFL draft references to the argument.  "RG3" - you're a [censored]. 

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10 hours ago, Dappa Dan said:

What the hell are you talking about... A "coup"?... Oliver was a bolter. We're not talking about trading 3 first rounders for RG3 here...

 

Again... What are you talking about? You've come to an MFC forum and you're sceptical about the knowledge of other posters?

We had pick 10, and flipped it (with some overs) for Bugg and a slightly earlier first... then traded that first and our following season's first (end result = 2015 - 8 and 2016 - 9) for the chance to pick at what ended up being 4 and 9 in 2015... 8+9 vs 4+9.... There's not a huge disparity there... There was some shuffling of later picks as well of course, as there usually is, but the white meat of that deal was the above pick inside the top 10.

The recruiters went for Oliver very late in the piece. It wasn't some incredible long-planned pick up "Darling" style.

I wanna see Mahoney pull a Howie Roseman before I get super excited. We're lucky we have Taylor who picks up gems late in the draft seemingly all the time. We haven't owned a trade week yet. We've done well drafting. Subtle difference.

You just believe what you want to if it will make you happy.

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5 hours ago, Fifty-5 said:

You're the the dope who bizarrely introduced irrelevant and obscure NFL draft references to the argument.  "RG3" - you're a [censored]. 

Let's try and keep the insults to a minimum, shall we?

Get a grip. Nobody called Mahoney a dunce. If you want to quote adults, start acting like one. There's nothing bizarre about using the example of a club trading 3 first rounders to go up from pick 5 to pick 2. That's a big-time trade that was high-risk high-reward... If you know your football, you know about it. One of the biggest trades of picks in any sport in history. Mahoney's was a trade of two first rounders for... wait for it... two first rounders. The trade got hardly any press at the time because it wasn't all that shocking. What the hell does Payton have to do with anything? Was there any trade involved there? You're gonna want to read posts before insulting people. I don't think you're even aware what you're arguing. I'll say it again, and I won't use childish insults to get it across... Mahoney's been ok so far. Nothing amazing. Nothing horrendous. I wasn't calling for his head. But I don't know that he deserves to be showered with glory based on what he's done. Now... If that makes you have another little tanty, then that's your business. But try arguing the point. Mahoney's ok. Taylor is the big one.

36 minutes ago, drysdale demon said:

You just believe what you want to if it will make you happy.

And you go ahead and believe Mahoney is the greatest list manager in the history of the AFL if it makes you happy. Personally I prefer to see results.

No, but seriously, why are you quoting me? You asked a condescending question about whether or not I knew the details of the Oliver trade, and I did? Any other education you need on our list situation, try wiki.

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34 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

Let's try and keep the insults to a minimum, shall we?

Get a grip. Nobody called Mahoney a dunce. If you want to quote adults, start acting like one. There's nothing bizarre about using the example of a club trading 3 first rounders to go up from pick 5 to pick 2. That's a big-time trade that was high-risk high-reward... If you know your football, you know about it. One of the biggest trades of picks in any sport in history. Mahoney's was a trade of two first rounders for... wait for it... two first rounders. The trade got hardly any press at the time because it wasn't all that shocking. What the hell does Payton have to do with anything? Was there any trade involved there? You're gonna want to read posts before insulting people. I don't think you're even aware what you're arguing. I'll say it again, and I won't use childish insults to get it across... Mahoney's been ok so far. Nothing amazing. Nothing horrendous. I wasn't calling for his head. But I don't know that he deserves to be showered with glory based on what he's done. Now... If that makes you have another little tanty, then that's your business. But try arguing the point. Mahoney's ok. Taylor is the big one.

And you go ahead and believe Mahoney is the greatest list manager in the history of the AFL if it makes you happy. Personally I prefer to see results.

No, but seriously, why are you quoting me? You asked a condescending question about whether or not I knew the details of the Oliver trade, and I did? Any other education you need on our list situation, try wiki.

no comebacks for second dappa. I don't need any education on our list situation.

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1 hour ago, Dappa Dan said:

Let's try and keep the insults to a minimum, shall we?

 

You're a massive hypocrite - you accused me of posting drunk first.

Raising NFL trades that are irrelevant to the AFL context and unknown to all but a small group of posters here who follow the NFL is not a constructive argument.

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5 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

You're a massive hypocrite - you accused me of posting drunk first.

Raising NFL trades that are irrelevant to the AFL context and unknown to all but a small group of posters here who follow the NFL is not a constructive argument.

- You don't want people to guess at your mental condition, then don't post drivel. It's not an insult to question a poster's mental and emotional state. You'll notice it wasn't censored, yours was. Hurling random insults at posters who have proven your knowledge of football is deficient is crossing the line.

- Yes. It is. This is a football forum. The AFL has been moving towards the American system for years. Where do you think we got the draft and free agency from? It's been going for decades, unless you hadn't noticed. Throughout all American sports the trading system has expanded. We just brought in the trading of future picks, and in recent history no trade has had more press in all of sports than the RG3 one.

Look. If you don't know that much about sports, that's fine. No-one expects you to be knowledgeable about these things. Took me years to get a hold of the rules of NFL, let alone the draft, future picks etc. If you're interested in AFL and where the system is headed, particularly when it comes to off season stuff... then you should know by now that the USA forms of draft and free agency are EXACTLY what the AFL is copying, and has been copying for years. As I say, no-one requires you to know about it. You can enjoy football any way you want. But when a poster points out similarities and patterns the AFL is ripping off directly from the NFL... in a single sentence, intended to be more of a punchline than anything... And you petulantly pick them up on it because you're upset they don't think Mahoney is god's gift to MFC? Then you'd better have some sort of knowledge to back up your sooking. So far you've offered nothing. Until you do learn a thing or two, don't quote me.

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43 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

- You don't want people to guess at your mental condition, then don't post drivel. It's not an insult to question a poster's mental and emotional state. You'll notice it wasn't censored, yours was. Hurling random insults at posters who have proven your knowledge of football is deficient is crossing the line.

- Yes. It is. This is a football forum. The AFL has been moving towards the American system for years. Where do you think we got the draft and free agency from? It's been going for decades, unless you hadn't noticed. Throughout all American sports the trading system has expanded. We just brought in the trading of future picks, and in recent history no trade has had more press in all of sports than the RG3 one.

Look. If you don't know that much about sports, that's fine. No-one expects you to be knowledgeable about these things. Took me years to get a hold of the rules of NFL, let alone the draft, future picks etc. If you're interested in AFL and where the system is headed, particularly when it comes to off season stuff... then you should know by now that the USA forms of draft and free agency are EXACTLY what the AFL is copying, and has been copying for years. As I say, no-one requires you to know about it. You can enjoy football any way you want. But when a poster points out similarities and patterns the AFL is ripping off directly from the NFL... in a single sentence, intended to be more of a punchline than anything... And you petulantly pick them up on it because you're upset they don't think Mahoney is god's gift to MFC? Then you'd better have some sort of knowledge to back up your sooking. So far you've offered nothing. Until you do learn a thing or two, don't quote me.

Look I'm very happy to "call" you on this topic and AFL knowledge in general..

I think Mahoney is one of the best operators in the AFL and you think he's ordinary.

The trade up for Oliver and Weed picks was unprecedented in AFL - maybe Mahoney has been studying the NFL and is ahead or the curve here.

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1 minute ago, Fifty-5 said:

Look I'm very happy to "call" you on this topic and AFL knowledge in general..

I think Mahoney is one of the best operators in the AFL and you think he's ordinary.

The trade up for Oliver and Weed picks was unprecedented in AFL - maybe Mahoney has been studying the NFL and is ahead or the curve here.

See? Wasn't so hard was it.

For the record I don't have a huge problem with Mahoney. I wouldn't want to be misrepresented here. He's come a long way in a relatively short amount of time. There's certainly cause for optimism given his age. I just think the Oliver move came first from Taylor... then came the Mahoney trade. Of course it worked out well, we all know what Oliver is... but the trade, in isolation, isn't incredible IMO. Was just a reshuffling of 2 first rounders for 2 first rounders... But yes, I probably should respect it a bit more as it seemed like just another pick shuffle, and it got us the best player we've seen in a long while.

My biggest concern is that when Taylor was brought in, I think it was probably more to do with an overspend by us and behind closed doors from the AFL. I know Eddie was furious to lose him. Now that we're settled again as a club and as a list, who's to say the AFL don't step in and try to get him to GC to help them. Lord knows they need it. My biggest fear for our long term health (besides the pressure on Pert) is that Taylor goes and we lose ground, list wise.

But sure. I can see why Mahoney is liked.

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5 minutes ago, Fifty-5 said:

The trade up for Oliver and Weed picks was unprecedented in AFL - maybe Mahoney has been studying the NFL and is ahead or the curve here.

Not just in the AFL, it was the first time that anyone used the draft points and academy loophole in a trade. We did that first and it netted us Oliver and Weideman.

He appears to be an excellent and creative operator.

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4 minutes ago, Dappa Dan said:

See? Wasn't so hard was it.

 

Call means challenge.

lol.

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Just now, Axis of Bob said:

Not just in the AFL, it was the first time that anyone used the draft points and academy loophole in a trade. We did that first and it netted us Oliver and Weideman.

He appears to be an excellent and creative operator.

Maybe it's just me, but I prefer to see the high-risk ones... I remember when this one went through, at the time (before we knew what Oliver was) there was concern we'd traded a future first rounder that might end up higher than we'd projected.

I'd have to go through a lot of old threads, but it was something along the lines of needing to land at 11th or better on the ladder the season after the Oliver/Weed draft in order to reach "par." That's the real art of future pick trading. Projecting where teams will land, and engineering trades that can exploit that. NFL's obviously got a longer and more colourful history of that, which is why more examples spring to mind. In here though, a good one is the recent WC/GC one. GC traded for what they thought would be a mid-first rounder... that turned out being pick 18. WC got 20, 21, 26 and 37... that's un-freaking-believable future pick trading. I wanna see something along those lines (though not necessarily that extreme) before I get excited.

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The trading of picks to get Oliver after we unsuccessfully bit for Callum Mills was a huge risk in my view.

Only a couple of years earlier we chose Jack Trengove after he had bolted through the pack late in the year.

This was a bust and to repeat the same formula was real high wire with a very big downside.

Im not as up to date on list managers as the above posters but we had an incredible pay off on a huge risk.

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5 minutes ago, Damo said:

The trading of picks to get Oliver after we unsuccessfully bit for Callum Mills was a huge risk in my view.

Only a couple of years earlier we chose Jack Trengove after he had bolted through the pack late in the year.

This was a bust and to repeat the same formula was real high wire with a very big downside.

Im not as up to date on list managers as the above posters but we had an incredible pay off on a huge risk.

The trade of picks came before the Mills bid. Weeks before. We went for Mills on draft day, got beaten, and then took Oliver. At the time no-one was surprised we went for Mills, he was a huge name... but likewise no-one was surprised we got outbid. I always loved the move because it put pressure on Swans and made sure they spent draft capital earlier. You have to wonder though, eh, what was going through Taylor and Mahoney's minds at the time. "Let's go for Mills, he's a jet, can't fail on that pick... but gee part of me hopes we miss out... this Oliver kid... he's got something"

Not sure Trengove was a bolter either, though I'm not certain. I remember in the leadup we were all watching closely, and it was always Scully at 1 and Trengove at 2. Actually, Dusty Martin was the real bolter that year. Trengove was a bust, yeah, but not because he wasn't quality. He got off to a great start... just got ruined by injury. Robbed him of what little pace he had.

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On 10/12/2018 at 11:58 PM, RalphiusMaximus said:

I think he's a better administrator than a coach. 

I like the way he conducts himself.  While I still think we gave too much for lever, in general he (and the rest of the recruiting folks) has followed the model of several top clubs in not [censored] around and just getting the deals done.  This wins us a lot of respect from other clubs and makes them more willing to work with us. 

Overall, I think he's doing pretty well, but of course we won't know the whole story for years yet. 

This is all about how players perceive us as a club as well. If a player is looking to come to us and we say we want them it's as good as done, on the other hand what player in their right mind is going to pick Freo after the way they have delt with both Hogan and Neale this year or Adelaide the way they delt with Lever last year. Paying overs for Lever may have some massive rewards down the track. 

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Im confused by "Destination club". Hawthorn is seen as a "destination" yet they have no hesitation in handing Ryan Burton as a asset to be traded without his consent.

 

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28 minutes ago, Damo said:

Im confused by "Destination club". Hawthorn is seen as a "destination" yet they have no hesitation in handing Ryan Burton as a asset to be traded without his consent.

 

It seems to be coming to an end, the players just outside the 22 have been baling out for a few years now, salary cap would be close to maxed and onfeild success is waning.

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