Post Match Discussion - Round 5

[DeleteUser 638]

Goal kicking accuracy. Fix that as a key critical priority. Changes the outcome of losses. And confidence during the game.

 

if only we had a Watts

[Hot as Hell 466]

1 hour ago, Wolfgang219 said:

I think you are correct in the problem but incorrect in the solution. 

 

A coach needs to design a game plan around the players at his disposal. He need to use their strengths and design plans that avoid their weaknesses. 

 

Goodwin has come in and talked about a style that will hold up in finals football. He then has implemented a plan regardless of the players and jettisons players that he doesn’t believe fit his mould, both Dunn and Watts being prime examples. The issue with this is you never get the perfect players and injuries require you adapt etc etc 

Succinctly put Wolf and spot on. 

Every successful plan is built around the resources available to execute it. 

Goody has done it the other way around, because it is really the only style he knows. 

What worked at Adelaide worked for the Adelaide lust. Richmond... ditto, small forwards, pressure and speed. It's what they had. 

We don't have the players to run hard and play hard both ways for 120 minutes. Yet we persist with it. 

The strategy does not need to be thrown out. It simply needs to be modified. Can Goody concede that much at least?

Dunno. He seems very fixed in his ways and appears not open to outside opinions. 

This is not our only problem, but it does not get the best out of what we have. 

We have 4 days to regroup. 

 

Edited April 25, 2018 by Hot as Hell
Typos

[Big Carl 333]

28 minutes ago, timbo said:

Goal kicking accuracy. Fix that as a key critical priority. Changes the outcome of losses. And confidence during the game.

 

if only we had a Watts

Exactly. 

His faults have been well documented but probably a better user of the ball than anyone on our list.

[Young Blood 2,620]

 

Maybe I was reading too much into this or they were just particularly average last night but I was watching both teams warm up before the game. There was such a big difference between confidence kicking for goal and general ball movement. Richmond looked really self assured when moving the ball and kicking for goal, every player had their head over the ball and trusted one another. A lot of Melbourne players were very casual often leaning back too much with kicks and a lot of miss kicks when passing to each other. I watched guys like Petracca miss about 5 drop punts from 30m in a row. 

I get that players try to stay loose and calm before the game but I couldn't help but notice it seemed to translate over into the game. Players were very fumbly and there were very few kicks over 20m to advantage for us.

I wonder if there is genuinely too much focus on handballing because that was one facet of the game we did OK with last night in terms of ball movement.

[FireInTheBennelly 4,072]

There would appear to be a 'veil of incompetence' hanging over our club.

[Purple77 1,001]

Sigh. I think the thing I really resent the most out of all of this is the coach/player belief that we played 3 really strong quarters of footy.

Like, Q1 was fine, but there was a complete lack of composure. These are professional footballers whom have been honing their craft since they were playing in under 10s. Why can't we demand - like we do with effort - the execution of a kick hitting a chest inside 50? Why does "having a go" offset our demand for wins, which is achieved through composure? I know it's because we can control effort more than we can control skill, but still... they get paid to do this.

Q2?! Are you kidding me?! 1 goal from I think (could be wrong) from 5 inside 50s? Constantly kicking it to a contest up the boundary line?! In what universe do you think that is a strong quarter of footy that will help us win a game? 

I'll give them Q3, I thought that was strong.

 

The tone of the coach and players feels reminiscent of (and more appropriate for)  a team starting from a ways back, like us in 2014 or Carlton now. I thought we were past this? I thought we were aiming for finals, and thus should demand standards accordingly? 

If we could just start recognising things for what they were, it'd be easier to stomach. Sigh, that's how I feel anyway.

[Deespicable 2,726]

5 hours ago, Stretch Johnson said:

Selection each week baffles me.

Fritsch is clean, chooses attacking options and more often than not hits them. 

Someone like Stretch is the opposite in every way.

 

Sorry guys but I have to speak up about the non-selection of Fritsch which a few of you seem to think was another Goody oversight.

We were playing the most ferocious, niggardly side at night - the conditions that they have dominated for their past 12 games, the only exception being their game in Adelaide when they got a taste of umpiring bias.

I am not sure how and why anyone could think that our classy newcomer, who is still incredibly light, would have fared better than any of our other small forwards. He would have had as much chance as Jeffy last night and we'd all be talking about dropping him this week.

The good news is that his skillful play is highly suited to the perfect conditions of Etihad this Sunday and he will be fresh and I'm sure ready to show us a few tricks. Essendon are no where near as physical so it's an ideal chance for him to show us all where he is at.

But a night game against Richmond, or Sydney for that matter, forget it. Wait a couple more years when he's got some more grunt about him.

[beelzebub 23,368]

Just now, Deespicable said:

Sorry guys but I have to speak up about the non-selection of Fritsch which a few of you seem to think was another Goody oversight.

We were playing the most ferocious, niggardly side at night - the conditions that they have dominated for their past 12 games, the only exception being their game in Adelaide when they got a taste of umpiring bias.

I am not sure how and why anyone could think that our classy newcomer, who is still incredibly light, would have fared better than any of our other small forwards. He would have had as much chance as Jeffy last night and we'd all be talking about dropping him this week.

The good news is that his skillful play is highly suited to the perfect conditions of Etihad this Sunday and he will be fresh and I'm sure ready to show us a few tricks. Essendon are no where near as physical so it's an ideal chance for him to show us all where he is at.

But a night game against Richmond, or Sydney for that matter, forget it. Wait a couple more years when he's got some more grunt about him.

Higgins says hello

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Deespicable said:

Sorry guys but I have to speak up about the non-selection of Fritsch which a few of you seem to think was another Goody oversight.

I read your post. 

We picked Stretch. 

[jnrmac 20,060]

1 hour ago, timbo said:

Goal kicking accuracy. Fix that as a key critical priority. Changes the outcome of losses. And confidence during the game.

 

if only we had a Watts

 

48 minutes ago, Big Carl said:

Exactly. 

His faults have been well documented but probably a better user of the ball than anyone on our list.

Watts kicked 100 goals in his last 5 seasons. Big deal, he averages 1 a game. He is not the answer to our goalkicking woes.

[davo 209]

21 minutes ago, Stretch Johnson said:

I read your post. 

We picked Stretch. 

And Harmes and ANB, they all need to go back to Casey now!!

[FireInTheBennelly 4,072]

18 minutes ago, Purple77 said:

Sigh. I think the thing I really resent the most out of all of this is the coach/player belief that we played 3 really strong quarters of footy.

Like, Q1 was fine, but there was a complete lack of composure. These are professional footballers whom have been honing their craft since they were playing in under 10s. Why can't we demand - like we do with effort - the execution of a kick hitting a chest inside 50? Why does "having a go" offset our demand for wins, which is achieved through composure? I know it's because we can control effort more than we can control skill, but still... they get paid to do this.

Q2?! Are you kidding me?! 1 goal from I think (could be wrong) from 5 inside 50s? Constantly kicking it to a contest up the boundary line?! In what universe do you think that is a strong quarter of footy that will help us win a game? 

I'll give them Q3, I thought that was strong.

 

The tone of the coach and players feels reminiscent of (and more appropriate for)  a team starting from a ways back, like us in 2014 or Carlton now. I thought we were past this? I thought we were aiming for finals, and thus should demand standards accordingly? 

If we could just start recognising things for what they were, it'd be easier to stomach. Sigh, that's how I feel anyway.

Fully agree.

Unfortunately our guys can put in as much effort as they like, it just won't matter. Until we can come up with the required skill level we're going nowhere. Kicking, handballing, marking, picking up the freaking ball. We're way below par on all of these, and haven't even gotten to things like target selection, shepherding and general team acts. Our skill level has been horrible for as long as I can remember and I can't understand why. Do they use footballs at training? Why do they appear to be a foreign object during games?

If we could hit targets we would've been so far in front by Q4 it wouldn't have mattered how tired we were, we would hold on. The issue is so much effort goes into each skill based turnover that we're getting no return and it becomes mentally draining as well as physically.

A step forward? In effort only, and only from last week. This year has so far been a big step backwards from 2017.

I recall Jared Rivers saying when he went to the Cats, that preseason training was so different. The responsibility was on players to come back in shape so they could work on skills. Can any preseason track watchers tell if we've caught up to that coaching strategy yet? If not, why not, and if so, why have we not improved? Do we have skills coaches, and are they actually 'skilled' coaches?

We have a lot to work on.

[jnrmac 20,060]

5 hours ago, Stretch Johnson said:

Selection each week baffles me.

Fritsch is clean, chooses attacking options and more often than not hits them. 

Someone like Stretch is the opposite in every way.

 

Fritsch averages 11 disposals and 1 goal. Hardly a world beater and not the reason we lost.

Stretch was selected for his outside pace and delivery into the fwd line. He didn't succeed but that was why he was selected. Plus he is being managed as a first year player with 2 games in 5 days.

[Deespicable 2,726]

25 minutes ago, Stretch Johnson said:

I read your post. 

We picked Stretch. 

We picked Stretch for what we hoped would be to provide outside run and what we hoped would be more defensive pressure and speed getting back. It didn't work, but that says a lot about how quick and tough the Tigers are.

Fritsch and Bugg were replaced as our secondary key forward options by Weideman and Harmes (first quarter before being moved) with Melky playing more often than previous weeks from the goalsquare region.

[D4Life 2,470]

5 hours ago, Bonkers said:

Overall I was not upset about the effort last night, the effort was there from most of the players and we had periods in the game where we were well on top. If we'd converted those opportunities it would have been a much closer game on the scoredboard. Who knows maybe it would have given us the confidence to roll them. The problem is that we don't capitalise on our effort and when we are winning the contest. I've been saying it for a long time the ball movement and attacking set up is inefficient. The other main issue with our game plan is that scoring heavily/easily now in the AFL is predominantly about finding space. To find space you need players willing to run hard and fast on the counter attack and take the game on. We don't have those type of players so we pose little threat to teams when they set up defensively against us. We are very easy to defend against because we can't exploit teams on the spread or run to get the ball past a congested area / zone. Where as the opponents find it easy to exploit us in transition, this is a double edged sword.

We have too many players of the same type and probably too many players outside of our top 12 players whose skill and running ability or willingness to work hard just does not seem to be there. Maybe that is an over exaggeration about willingness to work but we don't have enough speed or hard runners. I'm amazed at the ease at which other teams are able to transition the ball against us. It is tiring to watch when it happens repeatedly each week. Meanwhile we can barely manage to move the ball out of our back 50 and consistently choose to kick to a contest down the line over and over again. It's dumb footy.

The club has assembled a list with a good spine. Admittedly I think I was wrong about OMac, he has come good. He still has brain farts occasionally but overall he is developing well. The other parts of the spine are looking good with Lever, Gawn, Hogan & TMac. We have developing talls in Weid and Petty who I have high hopes for. The starting midfield of Viney, Oliver and Petracca will serve us well for a decade. 

What I am concerned about is the lack of genuine hard running wingers and flankers on the list at the moment. This is what we are lacking. But I have hope that we can get this right. We have built the list around contested footy which I think is the right thing, from the contest out. So next in my opinion is for the club to focus on finding  some genuine hard running skilled players who are hard workers and will complement our inside grunt.

For mine the difference last night was Richmond had a couple of better distributors, more pace and run on the outside as well as more efficiency in attack. Their efficiency in attack was probably partly to do with having a tried and true method to move the ball forward and confidence in that method. Richmonds attacking players were also willing to run hard/contest and they weren't relying on anyone in particular. They all filled their role and capitalised on the loose balls when present to them, overall their forward players are faster more skilled and hard working than ours. In comparison our structure forward of the ball is a bit of a shambles at the moment and it seems we don't have the forward players to play the game style Goodwin is attempting at the moment. 

 

Agree Tigers speed and willingness to really run, made a big difference.

Other big one was look how many easy goals they got due to our backline structure, at least 6, either due to not having someone in the goalsquare or our other favourite, 4 defenders trying to mark or punch , leaving Tiger smalls free.

I think Jeffy crumbed one for us, but even then the Tigers had a player on the goal line.

Speed on the wings another fast defender would help.

[Dante 2,739]

I thought that Weideman was quite serviceable last night and he will be ok.

He competes in the air, his ruck work was much better than I expected and he can find the football, he's raw and needs a bit of development and a bit more size but I think we've got a player there.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

3 hours ago, Jaded said:

Hogan needs to stick to his forward role. It literally gives us nothing to have him play mid. We have zero consistency up forward and no real marking targets. Gees we miss McDonald!

Still a beast, regardless of position

Would be leading the B and F by a hundred yards

[Young Blood 2,620]

2 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Still a beast, regardless of position

Would be leading the B and F by a hundred yards

Some of the work he was doing on the wings last night was very impressive. His spacial awareness and decision making is pretty quick for someone his size. 

[Willmoy1947 4,086]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Gutted after last night.

Some say the effort was there. It was but it was the wrong effort.

Most notably, in a contest we would have 3 or 4 players crowding around while Richmond had players scattered on the outside. When they won the pill the ball was flicked to the outside and they ran the ball very well with general precision. Sitting up high I could see Tiger players streaming fwd and our players bunched up back at where the contest was - not running and looking flat footed. That explained the massive outnumbering that occurred in their fwd line.

When we won the pill in a contest we were immediately under pressure from the Richmond players stationed around the outside. And more often than not we would turn it over.

When the game broke open in the last it was Richmond that was full of running and Melbourne that was stationary. I don't believe they gave up but after a game of chasing Richmond players streaming into their fwd line we were overwhelmed.

This is fixable.

Flying for the mark. As has been said here repeatedly we stupidly send 3 or 4 players up for the mark or spoil leaving no-one down. Again from viewing up high it is so obvious and amateurish it is hard to believe. This couple with spoils that go to the middle of the goal square (Lever) and fumbles within 10m of goal (OMac) mean that we are constantly against it because we are a poor contested marking side and we don't have any crumbers on the ground.

This is fixable.

Centre clearances. Gawn winning most of the taps is next to useless if our mids can't win his taps. We were smashed in the clearances. 5 to 0 in the second quarter. In the last it was 7 to 1 late in the quarter. Our set ups are atrocious and the number of times Richmond had players running from the back of the centre square to receive a handball and pump the ball into their fwd 50 was frustrating in the extreme. When we got the ball from a centre stoppage we often handballed to a stationary target, a man under pressure or we simply turned it over. Tyson has severe disposal flaws and decision making skills that will never be fixed. He gets the ball but if he turns it over every 2nd time what use is he? Not so easy to fix.

Defence. We lack the ability to defend one on one and kill the ball when it close to goal. Basic stuff. We fumble badly and as said above we gave away several goals through bad errors. While Lever had a reasonable game, we are sadly lacking in quality backmen. I am on record as saying I don't think OMac will make it. To me he is like Zac Dawson. Yes he is improving and his disposal is OK but we give away at least 2 goals a week from his weak attack on the ball or his inability to withstand physical pressure. Jetta hasn't played to his usual standard this year, Hibberd similar but is slowly improving. Wagner is starting to do some good things but overall he is just a player and does no damage to the opposition and doesn't get the ball enough. Last year we were 18th in defending one on one contests. This year we will likely win that title again.

Forward line. What has happened to Garlett? Has had one terrific game and 4 terrible games. We put up with his weak efforts because he is mercurial and can turn it one when you least expect it but overall he is now a liability and deserves time in the twos. Melksham had a pretty good game last night but needed to as his previous 4 were hopeless. Hogan is a quality player and I was impressed with Weideman last night, finally seeing something that makes me think he will make it as a player. A much better second ruck option than Harmes.

Harmes, ANB, Hunt, Stretch, Salem, Brayshaw, Kent are all in that category that can do some good things but have not improved and have severe flaws. Brayshaw was probably the pick last night but still he was unsighted for much of the night.

The coach. I don't rate him and he seems incapable of fixing basic problems like flying for the mark or crowding a contest or defending. We have no choice but to persevere with him but I see nothing from our coaching panel that makes me think we will get through this quickly.

We are in a world of pain and many of us are furious that our club cannot resolve some of these basic football issues after so fricking long. It is demoralising to have three members of your family in the car on the way home from the footy crying and saying 'Why do we have to follow such a crap football team?' I can't answer that.

The club is trashing its supporters resolve and doing long lasting and perhaps fatal damage to its future support base.

I am almost over caring.

Good summary. Tell your kids it's character building, and to get over it, I did, it's only a game. There are others that kids enjoy too.

[DV8 2,271]

16 hours ago, chook fowler said:

I wonder if PJ is still offended by the criticism of Goodwins coaching because we have no game plan, no structure and we leak goals like a sieve.

Garlett should never play again. Likewise Harmes and ANB - they are just substandard.

This Club gives its supporters so little so often. I’m seriously disillusioned.

 

very disappointed in ANB this year. just plod plod plodding along.

Harmes is just outa form like Jetta is/was.

Garlett looks lazy for some reason. no where near as committed as last year.?

 

I would play Lever as a defensive wing intercept and midfield marking option.  And have frost accompany Oscar.

Oscar needs to step up, again, and develop a bit more intensity around the loose ball.

 

Max Gawn is sooo-far overrated in AFL, its ridiculous.  Hes just tall, thats all.

can't catch,, can't field,, cant run,, can't play..

 

Swap Gawn for Lynch or 2MtrPeter.

[Hot as Hell 466]

6 minutes ago, willmoy said:

Good summary. Tell your kids it's character building, and to get over it, I did, it's only a game. There are others that kids enjoy too.

I used to tell my kids that when they were young. 

In the end, Melbourne being Melbourne my kids responded, " l think we have enough character dad, it's winning games that we lack". 

Oh so true it was, made me feel like l should have allowed them to actually choose their own team and enjoy their childhood. 

Nah.  Bugger that, they have suffered like the rest of us. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

1 hour ago, mongrel said:

 

Maybe I was reading too much into this or they were just particularly average last night but I was watching both teams warm up before the game. There was such a big difference between confidence kicking for goal and general ball movement. Richmond looked really self assured when moving the ball and kicking for goal, every player had their head over the ball and trusted one another. A lot of Melbourne players were very casual often leaning back too much with kicks and a lot of miss kicks when passing to each other. I watched guys like Petracca miss about 5 drop punts from 30m in a row. 

I get that players try to stay loose and calm before the game but I couldn't help but notice it seemed to translate over into the game. Players were very fumbly and there were very few kicks over 20m to advantage for us.

I wonder if there is genuinely too much focus on handballing because that was one facet of the game we did OK with last night in terms of ball movement.

I also noticed during the warm up Oliver and Jones fumble ground balls that went rolling through their legs. This was a minute or so before the bounce and I commented on it to my brother. Game starts and it was happening to the whole side.

[Redleg 40,910]

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

In the pre-season and PS games we spent most of the time chip kicking to players space to maintain possession of the ball. It worked well. But this has completely disappeared from our game and this year we have been cut up by teams doing the same to us..Now we predictably kick it long to packs along the line.

Heard a couple of the commentators say that if we persisted with the long kicks down the line we would get badly beaten. Guess what?

[DeeZee 7,392]

Even though I hate to say it , Richmond are an awesome team who will go very close to winning the whole thing again and we are just a middle of the rd team who may never get to the level of the top teams.

It just may never happen for us no matter how much we as supporters hope for it.

[Willmoy1947 4,086]

22 minutes ago, Hot as Hell said:

I used to tell my kids that when they were young. 

In the end, Melbourne being Melbourne my kids responded, " l think we have enough character dad, it's winning games that we lack". 

Oh so true it was, made me feel like l should have allowed them to actually choose their own team and enjoy their childhood. 

Nah.  Bugger that, they have suffered like the rest of us. 

Yep, we've got a mixture and ended up with Hawthorn and TWSNBN as well. But i had my revenge and never nominated the Aliens for MCC membership.