2 minutes ago, rpfc said:

He was off for a month.

No speculation there, that is a real tear to be off for that long.

Injuries affect players performances when they come back.

Argue that if you want to.

Happy to stand here and say 'a bad hammy tear affected his form.'

Feel free to disregard.

There is a verbose minority on here at the moment spouting off various conspiracy theories about Jack Watts.  It's past the point of ridiculous.

Man went to the moon

Jack Watts has had consistent issues with his application.  His injury was a setback however...  his ability to apply himself in a number contests in which he was in a position to make an impact for his team was unacceptable for the three weeks following his return.

 

It's a really hard one on so many levels with Jack.

We are all know that he doesn't play the man enough defensively, instead trying to intercept an errant handball or hold back from crunching someone - how many 50m penalties has he given away for a crude late tackle after the kick - I suspect zero in 10 years.

We all know that he's the most skilled player at the club and in theory, if your team has the footy, then that's what you want - a player who keeps it or improves our position with it.

We all know we love it when he plays well as it's so nice to see other supporters have to eat humble Pie when he kicks goals against them - QB being a case in point.

We all know that he has had to wear the mantle of being a No.1 pick, been bullied, been verbally abused on the field (let alone by many Demondlanders) and we all know he's taken such batterings in his stride with dignity. And therein lies part of the problem - Jack is a gentleman in a footy era when there is almost no room for such a person. He is Peter McKenna in the wrong era. That gentleman Jack image also doesn't really go hand-in-hand with what our club wants to achieve as its calling card - hard and clinical is what most clubs want from their modus operandi.

I could tell pre-season watching Goody ask VDB (before he went down) and Watts to bash into each other in a repetitive marking one-on-one drill that our coach knew he needed Watts to toughen up and to his credit he did ... for a while. But once he came back from his hamstring injury, it was as if he'd gone back to his schoolboy no-contact days and as we all know, it is not good to get on the wrong side of a coach late in the season - which he clearly has.

My worry now is that we have encouraged him to look at a club - Port - that can offer virtually nothing in terms of trade fairness - pick 29 is not quite enough and won't help much getting the Lever deal done. And pick 29 might be gone for their Motlop trade anyway. Perhaps if they were offering their No.1 pick for 2018 it would be appropriate. Or maybe Jackson Trengove's early second round pick - assuming he goes to the Lions.

And like others here have said, there is a chance that at 26 with 151 games behind him, Jack is ready to finally make it - just about the same time and games as Bernie Quinlan was traded to the Lions in one of the mistakes of last century.

It is a risky decision to send him elsewhere, but we can only assume that Goody has tried and tried and tried to get him to work that much harder in his chase and he just doesn't want to flogging a dead horse. Sadly though, I don't think he's a dead horse and he will probably fire up in a new environment and start realising his potential.

 

 

13 minutes ago, rpfc said:

In the three games he was pizz poor in after coming back from his hammy and before he got dropped - he was 5th, 5th, and 10th for Pressure Acts.

Of the forwards - only T Mac and ANB were ahead of him in the last game, ANB and Petracca the game before that, and those two again in the first game above.

The rest of the 'small forwards' in those games...

Hannan 10th, 8th, and rested.

Melksham 11th, 13th, 17th.

Garlett 15th, 7th, 13th.

!

Who is getting pushed out again?

It's not all about pressure acts.  Otherwise he wouldn't have been dropped.  You're cherry picking a little here.  He wasn't kicking goals and getting his hands on the footy much either.

Watts has pushed himself out IMO.  If he gets traded then he has no one to blame but himself.  He has been given chance after chance after chance - others get a few and if they don't take them then they are moved on.  He's had enough to last a lifetime.

 

Were not the only club to trade a high draft pick player...

Croad was traded from Hawthorn to the Fremantle Dockers at the end of 2001. The picks given up by Fremantle were used by Hawthorn to select  Hawthorn stars Luke Hodge and Sam Mitchell

 

Just now, Wiseblood said:

It's not all about pressure acts.  Otherwise he wouldn't have been dropped.  You're cherry picking a little here.  He wasn't kicking goals and getting his hands on the footy much either.

Watts has pushed himself out IMO.  If he gets traded then he has no one to blame but himself.  He has been given chance after chance after chance - others get a few and if they don't take them then they are moved on.  He's had enough to last a lifetime.

 

I am aware of Watts' issues, my point is that why is this role player the scapegoat?

Tackling was brought up as a point of concern and reason to move him on because our helter skelter game (like the Tigers) is based around pressure and turnovers (Garlett started like a proverbial house on fire with that and slowed down, Hannan is middling to poor at pressure, and Watts is middling to good with his pressure acts).

I am simply deflating that argument so that those that want to move on Watts can find the crucible to their argument for moving him on.

If the argument is he still has commitment issues (ie. the start of the season) then that is fine. Leave it there. The tacking on of other reasons is grating on me - usually when someone has 5 reasons for doing something, they have 5 flimsy reasons all sticky taped together to convince themselves they are right.

1 minute ago, rpfc said:

If the argument is he still has commitment issues (ie. the start of the season) then that is fine. Leave it there. The tacking on of other reasons is grating on me - usually when someone has 5 reasons for doing something, they have 5 flimsy reasons all sticky taped together to convince themselves they are right.

Sounds a bit like

Captain has it in for him

Coach has it in for him

He was injured

Medicos [censored] it up

Its our fault because of his [censored] development

etc etc

15 hours ago, mo64 said:

It's been mentioned before, but the reaction by many is akin to the uproar at Hawthorn when they traded Trent Croad to Freo.

So I thought I'd have a look to see what they got in exchange for Croad and Luke McPharlin. Well, with those picks they got a couple of plodders in Luke Hodge and Sam Mitchell.

If only Clarko had of listened to the supporters before trading away one of their favourite sons, which in turn destroyed the fabric of the club.

I'm sure the Central Districts coach would have had a lot to do with that trade.......

Anyone suggesting that Jack can be anything more than he has amounted to already seems either sadistic or delusional to me.

The buck must stop with him retreating to his schoolboy ways late in 2017. He's a grown man for god's sake, if he can't commit to more than a handful contests a game and can't take a chest mark I don't care how good his kicking is. He doesn't even rank in our top goal scorers anyway. I've loved him in patches this year, even to the point where I stopped being a critic and started rating him, but his tail end of the season reminded me of why I cannot stand him as a player.

Players of his nature are not commensurate with the notion of doing any damage in September whatsoever.

 

I somehow get the feeling that his papers were stamped after his issues in the pre-season. I get that Watts should have came back with a desire to be even better, but I think after 8 years of bashing, he probably thought he could reward himself with a trip to the US/Bali knowing that he had gained the respect of his peers. He clearly made a mistake and from listening to interviews, he definitely regrets the way he handled his off-season.

In regards to his 2017 season, he clearly came back underdone, and Goodwin when asked about his demotion, purely said that Watts' form was off and even Jack himself was disappointed with his return. A guy who thinks he's doing enough doesn't get frustrated or disappointed with his own form. He was hampered by the hamstring injury which led him to not being able to do all the things he wanted to do freely, like running to space, leading, pressure acts etc. Any leg injuries, especially hamstrings, are difficult to recover from and cause you to be hesitant in risk of doing the same injury. They also kill your endurance levels as you can't do any vigorous cardio exercises for a number of weeks. A broken arm is fine - as you won't lose any cardio fitness over the break. In addition, it takes at least 2 weeks for an AFL player to get back to the speed of the game after a lengthy lay-off with an injury that affects your running. This was seen with Gawn, Jones, Hogan (after illness), Joel Selwood even. 

I think it's overly harsh to trade him after 3 poor weeks where he lacked match fitness because of his injury, and I can't see that being the only reason which why I think it either has to do with the pre-season, or something else is at play. His first VFL game was ok, his second he was listed in the best (and had a big influence on the game for those who watched), and was again listed in our best players against the Pies on his AFL return.

So, from the day he signed his 2016 contract, he's put in 3 really poor AFL games and now he's being traded?

It has to be the pre-season thing plus something else. 

Jones alluded to his extra-curricular activities in a post-season interview, would imagine that's the catalyst for this move 

We may look back at our whole trade period and have a greater understanding on why Watts was traded (if he is indeed traded) 

It's the sum of all the parts that matters most and in order for the FD to get what is needed,  some sort of price often needs to be paid. 

Nearly all of the moves made by the club in the last 4 or 5 off-seasons has been questioned at some stage and this latest move re Watts is no different.  Hindsight tells us that most of those moves were beneficial but we've whiffed a few as well.

It should also be remembered that a number of players who may well be in the same boat as Watts don't really have any trade value.  Watts may not have a lot of trade value either but he might have enough trade value in terms of getting us what we need. 

1 hour ago, Goffer said:

Jones alluded to his extra-curricular activities in a post-season interview, would imagine that's the catalyst for this move 

Jones is just annoyed he doesn't get a discount of pineapple and strawberry print boardshorts. 

1 hour ago, beelzebub said:

@Redleg   Not too long ago in a galaxy not far you considered it more beneficial should we continue to work with whats good about Jack and work on what isn't , that this was surely preferable .

Still think that ?  I'm just interested

Yes I still think that and I would keep Jack, but it appears I am being overruled by the MFC FD.

Given that, there is not much I can do but hope we get a good deal.

I assume those that know, have evaluated his performance and attitude etc, like they would do with every player on the list and have come to the conclusion that he is not assisting our push to a GF, nor is he the player we would select for one.

I think Goodwin has had enough and is drawing a line in the sand for our culture perhaps, maybe Jack is distracting players with his nice guy attitude to all things football and life. Pre season something happened and this last fall out must be to do with his recovery from injury, as it kept dragging on. I think that's possibly whats happened here. If Watts is an issue, I'm happy for him to go and our culture to more tougher. No more Mr Nice Guy, we need to win premierships, not have nice teammates. 

If we trade Watts and Hogan let's hope that we don't lose any major sponsors! ?

 

39 minutes ago, Redleg said:

Yes I still think that and I would keep Jack, but it appears I am being overruled by the MFC FD.

Given that, there is not much I can do but hope we get a good deal.

I assume those that know, have evaluated his performance and attitude etc, like they would do with every player on the list and have come to the conclusion that he is not assisting our push to a GF, nor is he the player we would select for one.

A really honest post. Most of us would prefer that it had never come to this, and are just trying to come to terms with it.

For whatever reason, the senior coaches have come to believe that there is a mismatch between what Jack brings and what they want the team to be going forwards, and that this mismatch can't continue. Some of us blame Jack for that; some of us believe that the coaches may have got it wrong and are concerned that they're using Jack as a scapegoat for the team's failings. In reality, there's probably a fair amount of truth on both sides.

Jack polarises opinion because his positives are so damn sublime, while his negatives are so glaring. Like no other footballer I can remember, he looks as though nothing is beyond his capabilities on the field, yet he can make the most basic mistakes, or fail to do what should be basic stuff for any footballer.

But there's a mismatch, and to quote a phrase, "it is what it is". Like a number of others, I'm concerned about how we'll do without his positives; many others think we'll be much better off without his negatives.

But his positives and negatives are someone else's problems now. There are certainly other ways of dealing with Jack than the ways we've chosen; maybe they'll do better, maybe they won't.

Only time will tell.

If Hogan goes as well, we may as well just shut up shop, otherwise the members will tear the joint down.

22 minutes ago, CBDees said:

If we trade Watts and Hogan let's hope that we don't lose any major sponsors! ?

 

I'm boycotting Haymes paints - in fact, I'm not even going to paint the house, despite being reminded for the last two years....there, I've said it

1 hour ago, SFebey said:

I think Goodwin has had enough and is drawing a line in the sand for our culture perhaps, maybe Jack is distracting players with his nice guy attitude to all things football and life. Pre season something happened and this last fall out must be to do with his recovery from injury, as it kept dragging on. I think that's possibly whats happened here. If Watts is an issue, I'm happy for him to go and our culture to more tougher. No more Mr Nice Guy, we need to win premierships, not have nice teammates. 

Could be some truth in this.

On a Monday morning after a bad loss, I can imagine Jack coming bouncing into the club, big smile on his face, trying to gee everybody up, wanting everyone to put the loss behind them and to get stuck into it. For those whose reaction to a bad loss is to burn and brood and make it really sting hard for a few days, nothing in the known universe could be more annoying and aggravating than this.

It'd be "obvious" to the "brooders" that "bouncers" like Jack just isn't taking the loss anywhere near seriously enough. And maybe they'd think that he's encouraging the younger players to not take it seriously enough either.

Jack said a few years back after a bad loss something to the effect that it was a bad loss but there's no point hurting about it, nothing can change the result now, so we put it behind us and start focussing on the next game. This is the sort of attitude that continues to annoy some DL readers, and that's not unreasonable.

And who are the senior guys in the FD - Goody, Macca, Todd Viney. The leadership group of players include Jack Viney, Jones, T-Mac and Lewis - all of them definitely "brooders" and not "bouncers" (Gawn & Vince may be more "bouncers", but perhaps more inclined to keep their exuberance in check after a bad loss).

Now, I can understand Jack's response to a bad loss, because that's what I'm like after a setback in life - the sooner I bounce back, the better I'm able to prepare for the next thing that ice throws at me. I can also see from my - ahem - advanced point in life that both are legitimate ways to respond to adversity. 

You can see in a number of my posts I'm trying to get us accept Jack has gone and to "bounce back" and prepare for life with him as an opposition player. And OK, it's not a lot of help for those who haven't done brooding over it yet.

The fact that a 26 year old player comes back to preseason underdone is very poor.

Setting standards at a footy club is more important than any one player, no matter how talented.

 

5 minutes ago, Akum said:

Could be some truth in this.

On a Monday morning after a bad loss, I can imagine Jack coming bouncing into the club, big smile on his face, trying to gee everybody up, wanting everyone to put the loss behind them and to get stuck into it. For those whose reaction to a bad loss is to burn and brood and make it really sting hard for a few days, nothing in the known universe could be more annoying and aggravating than this.

It'd be "obvious" to the "brooders" that "bouncers" like Jack just isn't taking the loss anywhere near seriously enough. And maybe they'd think that he's encouraging the younger players to not take it seriously enough either.

Jack said a few years back after a bad loss something to the effect that it was a bad loss but there's no point hurting about it, nothing can change the result now, so we put it behind us and start focussing on the next game. This is the sort of attitude that continues to annoy some DL readers, and that's not unreasonable.

And who are the senior guys in the FD - Goody, Macca, Todd Viney. The leadership group of players include Jack Viney, Jones, T-Mac and Lewis - all of them definitely "brooders" and not "bouncers" (Gawn & Vince may be more "bouncers", but perhaps more inclined to keep their exuberance in check after a bad loss).

Now, I can understand Jack's response to a bad loss, because that's what I'm like after a setback in life - the sooner I bounce back, the better I'm able to prepare for the next thing that ice throws at me. I can also see from my - ahem - advanced point in life that both are legitimate ways to respond to adversity. 

 

There has to be more to it then that.

I've heard jordan lewis aay the exact same thing.... moving on from a loss 

Maybe there is also no conspiracy and the fd and jw have just decided it's time for a change...

But as i typed that i remember jw saying he wanted to stay. But even that could be theater from jw.

1 minute ago, Unleash Hell said:

There has to be more to it then that.

I've heard jordan lewis aay the exact same thing.... moving on from a loss 

Maybe there is also no conspiracy and the fd and jw have just decided it's time for a change...

But as i typed that i remember jw saying he wanted to stay. But even that could be theater from jw.

I'm sure that if he had his preference, he would stay. But he realises that's not an option so he's just had to cop it and he's trying to get himself up for the next challenge ...

15 minutes ago, Akum said:

I'm sure that if he had his preference, he would stay. But he realises that's not an option so he's just had to cop it and he's trying to get himself up for the next challenge ...

Probably already got the grinning laconic smile going looking forward to his new club ...with his highly skilled /lackadaisical style.

Bye Bye

I think what a lot of posters forget the fact Jack No longer has "potenital" what you see is what you get. He is going on 27 and has been at the peak of his powers for the last 2 years. 

Sure if you trade him he might become "refreshed" and play well to start off, but his old habits will seep in, especially if he can't lift his preparation, but just because Jack pulls on another jumper it doesn't mean he will become a super star. 

Yes he is a classy player and sure after the siren in a grand final I would want him to be kicking for goal, however how many goals will he cost us in that grand final with his terrible 1 on 1 efforts and not being able to stick a tackle? 

My guess is he will get traded to a bottom feeder club, cash in and end his career something like Dale Thomas minus the premiership. 

I thought he was lucky to get back in the side for R23 against the Pies. 

It was one of those situations where if we made finals it was going to be hard for him to get back into a finals side.

Outside pressure from the media was there and MFC took a gamble on him I thought.

I hav'nt watched the R23 game against the Pies... 

Stats look like he played ok. 

How did he go?