On 06/09/2017 at 11:28 AM, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Up until his injury he was having a very good year - on top of a great 2016.  Teasing is the right word for it.

A fit and firing Watts makes us a four goal better team; when he's 'off', he's a liability.

 

I'm conflicted, as I think many supporters are.  If success comes, I'd love to see him there as a key part to it.  However if the offer is very good... perhaps both parties could benefit from the change.

We just need to replace watts with a quality forward/mid I would like Luke Dahlhaus from the dogs

I really want to see Hogan, Weed and Pedo as the tall forwards and Watts roaming on the wing.  I think we'd get the best out of him in that sort of role.  He'd have the freedom to drift down into defence or create attacking opportunities through HF.  It's also a role that doesn't rely as much on him taking contested marks, which is a clear weakness in his game. 

I don't see the value in trading Watts frankly. To other clubs he's probably only worth a second round, but to us he's class and poise when we need it. 

He was having a good year until he got injured but yes his comeback from injury was disappointing. I still say we hold on to him. Only a really good offer from another club and Watts saying to us, yes I'd like to have a go elsewhere would change my mind.

On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2017 at 9:53 PM, Moonshadow said:

Hey Mr Wisdom, could you post a link to share the moment you said all of these would be terrible outcomes before they happened? Anyone can be wise after the fact.  Give us next week's lotto numbers rather than last weeks Picket

Ok 

1 I wanted MARTIN before either Trengove or Scully ( trawl through my posts and you will see!)

2 I was again on the money wanting Wines instead of Toumpas who was and has been as useless as an ashtray in a motor bike.

Hell, recruiting at MFC when these Mistakes were made has stuffed the club!

1 hour ago, picket fence said:

Ok 

1 I wanted MARTIN before either Trengove or Scully ( trawl through my posts and you will see!)

2 I was again on the money wanting Wines instead of Toumpas who was and has been as useless as an ashtray in a motor bike.

Hell, recruiting at MFC when these Mistakes were made has stuffed the club!

Everyone on DL wanted Wines instead of Toumpas. The only people who wanted Toumpas appear to be Todd Viney and maybe his assistants at the time. It was a monumental mistake.

Trengove and the GWS bloke were the best two in the draft according to every recruiter and in fact Port offered us two first rounders for pick 2 to get JT , like the Kelly deal. The GWS is not a dud as a player ( maybe as a person ) and we got Jesse for him and JT was simply cruelled by injury and an ordinary club.

Again we all seem to agree that the Prendergast period really hurt the club.

Plenty on here can claim  that they would have drafted player x, but I am sure along with that would be some duds as well.

I have said on here many times that I nearly fainted at a draft function I attended, when I was told we were taking Gysberts instead of Talia. 

The best thing is that we have Taylor now and he seems to know what he is doing. How many would have taken Clarry ahead of Darcy?Taylor was desperate to get Clarry and has been proved correct. Many other recruiters thought he had made a mistake. It is a tough gig and there have to be mistakes, it is part of the process. Not every draftee will play in the senior side, it is just plain impossible.

I congratulate you on selecting Martin, as it has turned out you were right. Were you worried a few years ago when JT was Captain and Martin was just a player and then wanted to leave.

 

I honestly think that trading Watts can be our "Vickery" moment. I don't think he's the kind of downhill skier you want around when you're trying to play finals. He sometimes plays like a loser and this has carried on for far too long.

This is what I wanted to happen before Cox resigned with the Pies:

• Pick 10 and Watts to Collingwood for Pick 6 and Cox.
• Pick 6 to Adelaide for Lever.

IMO that makes us a better team, and a raw albeit fit and strong ruckman who isn't injured every week of the year like Spencer was. He's good for a goal game, can mark the ball and is a big body.

These rumours of Pick 10 and Watts for Collingwood's pick 6 just have to be overdone. We'd need a player in return for that.

11 hours ago, Pates said:

I don't see the value in trading Watts frankly. To other clubs he's probably only worth a second round, but to us he's class and poise when we need it. 

He was having a good year until he got injured but yes his comeback from injury was disappointing. I still say we hold on to him. Only a really good offer from another club and Watts saying to us, yes I'd like to have a go elsewhere would change my mind.

I'm a JW fan and he does provide class and poise but the problem is he also provides a lack of effort and a streak of uncompetitiveness during games. 

This is the frustration I have and why I'm hoping the trade talk is to give him yet another rocket.  He has had many chances and sometimes you are what you are 

My guess based on nothing but gut feeling is that  both Watts and Hogan will be at other clubs next year.

2 hours ago, picket fence said:

Ok 

1 I wanted MARTIN before either Trengove or Scully ( trawl through my posts and you will see!)

2 I was again on the money wanting Wines instead of Toumpas who was and has been as useless as an ashtray in a motor bike.

Hell, recruiting at MFC when these Mistakes were made has stuffed the club!

Martin would just be a tradie playing footy for Yarawonga if we had selected him. The club would've tried to break his bad boy spirit and he would've hated AFL and left. It was around the likes of Jake King and co he further developed his "don't give a [censored]"attitude while still concentrating on his football. He flourished in Richmond's feral culture where as Melbourne would have suffocated him.

21 hours ago, Akum said:

Thanks mate, I feel like I understand you a whole lot better. Takes a lot of bottle to put stuff like this out, really admire you for it.

For me, it's sounding much more to me as if it's heading for Watts leaving, though I'm 50/50 about whether it will be a good thing for us or not. I'm concerned that it may unbalance us too much toward contested ball winners with iffy disposal. For players whose strengths are in uncontested footy, which every side needs, I don't think we handle them well at all.

And it's probably getting to the point where, with the way our game plan is developing, we need someone with a different set of skills to play his position. I'm not convinced of that myself, but it looks like it's the way things are heading.

So I get the impression, including from that strange TV interview last night, that it's down to the coach's call, and that's probably the way it should be. But I do admire Watts's character - very few could have been through what he's been through and still be standing strong like he seems to be. I hope for Watts's sake that he really is dealing with this as well as he seems to be.

And I believe that if someone that he respects (Goody, probably) came to him and told him sincerely that they think it would be better for the team if he goes, it wouldn't be what he'd want, but he'd cop it sweet & go.

Honestly, the biggest danger for Melbourne,,, is to not make calls on players who are in a self-preservation mode.

We've had players doing this right through our 2000's.

Only committed when it's suited them, when they feel like playing.

Let me be bold. (Robbo, Yze,) there are more.

Watts is like Green early days. Green hated physical pressure until he was challenged & ridden for that. He got  a bit better, but wasn't skilled at tackling. poor at it.

We have had too many players half-hearted over our journey; and this is where the "bruiseless footy" originates from.

And it grew into our culture.

Its still there in watts, & a little in some others here and there.

 

Keeping players who are not willing combatants, especially in a club like Mfc, with its Mcc conservative connects,,,  is a Major flaw for Our club... in particular more than other clubs. for these reasons.

 

It is the 'outer' supporters who are most likely To Not let their players get away with "soft efforts".

 

We at Melbourne are a "soft touch", because we have an overabundance of tolerance & understanding; to the detriment of our success on footy fields.

 

3 hours ago, picket fence said:

Ok 

1 I wanted MARTIN before either Trengove or Scully ( trawl through my posts and you will see!)

2 I was again on the money wanting Wines instead of Toumpas who was and has been as useless as an ashtray in a motor bike.

Hell, recruiting at MFC when these Mistakes were made has stuffed the club!

You better trawl all the way back to the 60's picket. because since smithy was lost we have continually stuffed most of our recruiting decisions, including Flower himself.

We nearly got rid of Flower, before he even played.

This is the problem when we recruit Boards from our inner upper echelons at Mfc.

We continually get decisions on personnel, from business skilled people, who aren't as savvy in the footballer stakes.

Maybe they would be better at buying race horses, than spotting true footy players.

 

But don't miss the mark, and blame it on the past 10 years;  or you Fail to help this club learn.

.

1 hour ago, Demons11 said:

I'm a JW fan and he does provide class and poise but the problem is he also provides a lack of effort and a streak of uncompetitiveness during games. 

This is the frustration I have and why I'm hoping the trade talk is to give him yet another rocket.  He has had many chances and sometimes you are what you are 

Thats because he loves adulation.

Doesn't love footy.

Priorities are all wrong. He's in it for the money, and his ego is satisfied being the centre of attention.

He needs a swift kick to try to wake him up & commit.

 

Has anyone ever had their wives lose interest in them, after children arrived?

38 minutes ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Martin would just be a tradie playing footy for Yarawonga if we had selected him. The club would've tried to break his bad boy spirit and he would've hated AFL and left. It was around the likes of Jake King and co he further developed his "don't give a [censored]"attitude while still concentrating on his football. He flourished in Richmond's feral culture where as Melbourne would have suffocated him.

Wow, I think this is bang on.

I am really surprised to read this on a Melbourne forum.

 

shitt, there is hope yet.

34 minutes ago, DV8 said:

 

Keeping players who are not willing combatants, especially in a club like Mfc, with its Mcc conservative connects,,,  is a Major flaw for Our club... in particular more than other clubs. for these reasons.

 

It is the 'outer' supporters who are most likely To Not let their players get away with "soft efforts".

 

We at Melbourne are a "soft touch", because we have an overabundance of tolerance & understanding; to the detriment of our success on footy fields.

 

Is this Deeluded?

We have not been a soft team since 2015. The last two years have shown that you can alter your hardness at the ball and the man if you prioritise that.

Those that think we 'have to get rid of players that were around in the soft old days' are misguided. Watts turned the corner in 2016 only to regress. Jones doesn't need to go anywhere.

When posters write that they are referring to their own psychosis about those years - the desire for players being moved on is an attempt to remove that well of doubt about the current progress being real or not.

I don't worry that the team will regress to irrelevance.

4 hours ago, picket fence said:

Ok 

1 I wanted MARTIN before either Trengove or Scully ( trawl through my posts and you will see!)

2 I was again on the money wanting Wines instead of Toumpas who was and has been as useless as an ashtray in a motor bike.

Hell, recruiting at MFC when these Mistakes were made has stuffed the club!

That would be horrific. And besides, that's for you to do to prove you're not writing bs 

Easy to be smart after the fact

We're on the verge of finals and preliminary finals.

We should be buying players not selling them.

I don't want another Jeremy Howe success story going to Collingwood.

 

 

2 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Martin would just be a tradie playing footy for Yarawonga if we had selected him. The club would've tried to break his bad boy spirit and he would've hated AFL and left. It was around the likes of Jake King and co he further developed his "don't give a [censored]"attitude while still concentrating on his football. He flourished in Richmond's feral culture where as Melbourne would have suffocated him.

Colin Sylvia could have mentored him.

So, looking at those 15 MFC players who scored Brownlow votes for the season just past, Jack finished equal 14th with 1 Brownlow vote (equal with OMac). Which makes him the equal 162nd best player in the competition.

It is what it is, I guess. But watching a competitive beast like Dusty sweat on beating Dangerfield to win it, made me wonder what Jack thinks of his performances and if he aspires to do or be better as an AFL player. 

Looking at our top 5 pollers in the vote (Oliver, TMac, Viney, Hibberd and Jones) they are all driven and competitive.

Maybe we (I) just need to accept Jack is what he is, despite our hopes he'd be something more.

Trade or not trade, he's become a marginal player with marginal impact on our fortunes and hopes going forward.  

 

Edited September 26, 20177 yr by PaulRB

3 hours ago, At the break of Gawn said:

Martin would just be a tradie playing footy for Yarawonga if we had selected him. The club would've tried to break his bad boy spirit and he would've hated AFL and left. It was around the likes of Jake King and co he further developed his "don't give a [censored]"attitude while still concentrating on his football. He flourished in Richmond's feral culture where as Melbourne would have suffocated him.

What garbage.

Dusty had to tame the self destructive streak not roll with it.  He virtually needed a 24 hour minder at stages.

That is why he had the year he had, and a big reason why his team is playing for a flag.

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

Is this Deeluded?

We have not been a soft team since 2015. The last two years have shown that you can alter your hardness at the ball and the man if you prioritise that.

Those that think we 'have to get rid of players that were around in the soft old days' are misguided. Watts turned the corner in 2016 only to regress. Jones doesn't need to go anywhere.

When posters write that they are referring to their own psychosis about those years - the desire for players being moved on is an attempt to remove that well of doubt about the current progress being real or not.

I don't worry that the team will regress to irrelevance.

I agree with you rpfc.

I was not including the Roos era in that statement, and of course, not this new period either.

Your 3rd paragraph is a projection of yours, based on your assumptions. And we don't have to do anything at all. rpfc.

I have absolutely no doubt we are progressing, and I also have no doubt that we cannot afford to accept players in the club, that will not willingly take a hit for the team.

Once we keep that door ajar, we start the rotting of the physical game Roosy brought to us, in one foul action.

We can all sit on our hands, & twiddle our thumbs.  But that won't make this club stronger.

Change is what will aid our strength & dithering about watts is hurting more than helping.

 

I know Roosy was  watts fan, but he was also trying to coax jack out of himself, with some sugar, rather than a stick.

That year watts was dropped in that last game of the season, after Roosy & PJ had a word with him, Watts played better in 2016 earning a new contract.

 

Since that contract began he has turned up in poor condition and has been less committed than he was when under scrutiny.

 

So he was poorly committed in 2015,

Much more committed in 2016 (contract year),

And poorly committed in 2017, with a nice new contract signed & delivered ?

 

2 hours ago, DV8 said:

So he was poorly committed in 2015,

Much more committed in 2016 (contract year),

And poorly committed in 2017, with a nice new contract signed & delivered ?

the col sylvia special!

Watts had 6 poor games in 2017, which is not good enough, but is not 'back to his old ways' - in fact he was really damaging for a period before he did his hammy. I would argue he had more good games playing his role as he had poor games.

As with most threads on Watts, the discussion quickly moves to extremes and history rewritten to back that extreme up.

2 minutes ago, rpfc said:

Watts had 6 poor games in 2017, which is not good enough, but is not 'back to his old ways' - in fact he was really damaging for a period before he did his hammy. I would argue he had more good games playing his role as he had poor games.

As with most threads on Watts, the discussion quickly moves to extremes and history rewritten to back that extreme up.

He adds some class and quality ball use that we desperately lack. 

Jesse hogan is a 20% better player with watts in the team 

2 hours ago, rpfc said:

Watts had 6 poor games in 2017, which is not good enough, but is not 'back to his old ways' - in fact he was really damaging for a period before he did his hammy. I would argue he had more good games playing his role as he had poor games.

As with most threads on Watts, the discussion quickly moves to extremes and history rewritten to back that extreme up.

Most of the list probably had 6 ordinary games in 2017. 

Many of our list haven't improved their ball use over a few seasons. But that doesn't seem to matter - ball use clearly isn't something that we consider important. Nor does running off the ball, nor making intelligent leads, nor stopping your opponent from being third man up in the marking contest. Nor shepherding, nor blocking for teammates.

It's all about smashing in for contested ball, or bombing it into the f50. 

7 minutes ago, Akum said:

Most of the list probably had 6 ordinary games in 2017. 

Many of our list haven't improved their ball use over a few seasons. But that doesn't seem to matter - ball use clearly isn't something that we consider important. Nor does running off the ball, nor making intelligent leads, nor stopping your opponent from being third man up in the marking contest. Nor shepherding, nor blocking for teammates.

It's all about smashing in for contested ball, or bombing it into the f50. 

This should go in the Goodwin thread. Every fan thinks there team does things 'that good teams don't do' but we are different - we know.