2 minutes ago, It's Time said:

Truest comment was the ladder doesn't lie. Fact is on the form we had post round 14 we would have been killed by Sydney in the first final. I

I blocked everything out after missed out but would we have not played Port not Sydney if WC had lost? And even if we had beaten the Pies by small margin we might still have played Port? Or have i got that wrong?

We would have had a reasonable shot of beating Port.

9 minutes ago, binman said:

I blocked everything out after missed out but would we have not played Port not Sydney if WC had lost? And even if we had beaten the Pies by small margin we might still have played Port? Or have i got that wrong?

We would have had a reasonable shot of beating Port.

You are right I was basing this on beating Pies which would mean we would have finished a game clear in 7th. If we couldn't beat them there wasn't much point being there. We wouldn't have beaten Port in the form we showed against Pies. 

6 minutes ago, It's Time said:

You are right I was basing this on beating Pies which would mean we would have finished a game clear in 7th. If we couldn't beat them there wasn't much point being there. We wouldn't have beaten Port in the form we showed against Pies. 

Thats true. That said the weeks break is a huge wildcard that would have given players struggling with injury a chance to freshen up. Not to mention giving viney a good chance of playing.

[censored]. [censored]. Crap. Its all come back now. I feel sick all over again. I cant face watching the footy this weekend.

Edited September 6, 20177 yr by binman

9 minutes ago, binman said:

[censored]. [censored]. Crap. Its all come back now. I feel sick all over again. I cant face watching the footy this weekend.

Right there with ya mate.

Still shattered.

1 hour ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

I would be very surprised if anyone thought the coaches had not made any blunders ...

Which isn't what you said at all is it. You said "significant" blunders ...

You also said "Even Goodwin's greatest fan would acknowledge ..." when you don't speak for "Goodwin's greatest fan" nor are you able to predict what he/she would or wouldn't acknowledge. 

As for the workings of the brain, yes, after 100+ years of study, we have a pretty good idea of how it works. One of those ways is to take assumptions as facts: it's cognitively economical, and helps us function in a world that's a lot more unpredictable than we can deal with. If you want more, a little Kahneman and Tversky would be the place to start.

I want exponential improvement not Lingus improvement 

2 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Goodwin was the same measured person we have seen week in week out. He looks and sounds like he is on mogadon. I wonder if he ever gives a spray?

Whilst it was better late than never to come out and officially address our pathetic end to the season if I was hearing an address before a game from him I would fall asleep.

Being calm in the coaches box is a good thing but I want our players to come out of the rooms ready to break through brick walls. I get the impression that will never happen under Goodwin.

He is a little Robotic isn't he. Maybe that is the AFL way now. 

I have no idea, but fixing the pre game address would sure help. 

Are the players sleepy after a Goodwin address before the first bounce?

18 minutes ago, bing181 said:

Which isn't what you said at all is it. You said "significant" blunders ...

You also said "Even Goodwin's greatest fan would acknowledge ..." when you don't speak for "Goodwin's greatest fan" nor are you able to predict what he/she would or wouldn't acknowledge. 

As for the workings of the brain, yes, after 100+ years of study, we have a pretty good idea of how it works. One of those ways is to take assumptions as facts: it's cognitively economical, and helps us function in a world that's a lot more unpredictable than we can deal with. If you want more, a little Kahneman and Tversky would be the place to start.

A pretty good idea of how the brain works.  Hardly convincing.  And it doesn't mean you know anything about mine so stop presuming that you! 

And taking things out of context with selective quotes or splitting hairs over a missing adjective is futile.

If you have something to say on the subject of the thread do so.  Otherwise I'm not interested if you just want to quibble.  Bye!

5 hours ago, beelzebub said:

No. Gives you the Premiership.

Ladder is the Ladder.

No the ladder after the season shows the Dogs finished 1st after winning the flag. To argue otherwise is ridiculous.

11 hours ago, PaulRB said:

The comment about our drop off post Rd 15 is illuminating given it coincided with Viney's injury, Watts and Salems form slump (and being dropped).

Will be an interesting trade period. The sting will keep the knife sharp. 

Don't give him too much credit. You just need to look at our win loss ratio to work out we struggled to finish the year. Despite that we still had ample opportunity to ice our finals spot with most players back and didn't.

I don't need the experts to tell me what l can get from the stats. I would like to hear insightful reasons as to WHY we dropped off.

My take: Injuries were managed ok until we started to bring back many of our 'starting 22'. Gawn, Watts, Viney, Salem, Hogan all struggled or were reinjured. In addition others seemed to be weighed down by expectation or were not strong enough to play out the season. IMO they need to do a thorough review of our sports science team and training programs as a priority.

Edited September 6, 20177 yr by Demons1858

3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

A pretty good idea of how the brain works.  Hardly convincing. 

Convincing enough for the Nobel Prize committee.

14 hours ago, Demons1858 said:

..........

My take: Injuries were managed ok until we started to bring back many of our 'starting 22'. Gawn, Watts, Viney, Salem, Hogan all struggled or were reinjured. In addition others seemed to be weighed down by expectation or were not strong enough to play out the season. IMO they need to do a thorough review of our sports science team and training programs as a priority.

I think this played out to our horror really.  I know not everyone agrees but when some of our very much "needed' talent started to filter back , almost to a player they seemed underdone and either struggled often or injured themselves again.

one or two......plain dumb luck...  but it was everywhere. That's down to methodology  and protocols.

Might be time for some new folk in the back rooms 

15 hours ago, Demons1858 said:

Don't give him too much credit. You just need to look at our win loss ratio to work out we struggled to finish the year. Despite that we still had ample opportunity to ice our finals spot with most players back and didn't.

I don't need the experts to tell me what l can get from the stats. I would like to hear insightful reasons as to WHY we dropped off.

My take: Injuries were managed ok until we started to bring back many of our 'starting 22'. Gawn, Watts, Viney, Salem, Hogan all struggled or were reinjured. In addition others seemed to be weighed down by expectation or were not strong enough to play out the season. IMO they need to do a thorough review of our sports science team and training programs as a priority.

The fixture was a big reason.

Those 3 6 day breaks in a row were identified by the FD as a major challenge as soon as the fixture came out last year. I call it negligence by the AFL to make any team go through that fixture little own the 3rd youngest team in the league. When I saw that I thought this wasn't going to be our year for Finals. Especially with Dogs at Etihad and Weagles in Perth being the first two games. We had amazing wins then understandably hit the wall against Swans. How do the AFL make our only Friday Night blockbuster in years the 3rd 6 day break in a row coming back from Perth against a Grand Finalist team. Shocker. Then that was closely followed by 3 away games including Darwin.

Add in coping with all the injuries pre during and after this period and it looks more understandable. 

Lets hope the AFL don't crucify us again next season. And please schedule the Darwin game the week before the bye. 

Edited September 7, 20177 yr by It's Time

Well its good to hear from him. It should be interesting to see what he will say at the B&F.

Gawn was on mmm hot breakfast yesterday morning and he still sounded shattered. He said he watched the game and actually thought freo were going to beat essendon when they cam back but then obviously had to wait for the west coast game. He said there was no mad monday because nothing was organised and said it's good Casey are still alive but it just feels strange. 

Said he will get out of melbourne during the finals and when Eddie pointed out some positive things about melbourne during the year Max said yeah but we are probably the only team that have missed out on the finals by 9 points and stuffed it up. Said during the year we should have beaten geelong, hawks, freo, nth and not let brisbane come back like they did. 

So he is still gutted as we probbaly still are. 

 

2 hours ago, It's Time said:

The fixture was a big reason.

Those 3 6 day breaks in a row were identified by the FD as a major challenge as soon as the fixture came out last year. I call it negligence by the AFL to make any team go through that fixture little own the 3rd youngest team in the league. When I saw that I thought this wasn't going to be our year for Finals. Especially with Dogs at Etihad and Weagles in Perth being the first two games. We had amazing wins then understandably hit the wall against Swans. How do the AFL make our only Friday Night blockbuster in years the 3rd 6 day break in a row coming back from Perth against a Grand Finalist team. Shocker. Then that was closely followed by 3 away games including Darwin.

Add in coping with all the injuries pre during and after this period and it looks more understandable. 

Lets hope the AFL don't crucify us again next season. And please schedule the Darwin game the week before the bye. 

Agree we had a tough fixture but what it did was expose our average conditioning. The fixture is out of our hands but we can control how the players prepare for the season, rehab and time their returns from injury.

3 hours ago, beelzebub said:

I think this played out to our horror really.  I know not everyone agrees but when some of our very much "needed' talent started to filter back , almost to a player they seemed underdone and either struggled often or injured themselves again.

one or two......plain dumb luck...  but it was everywhere. That's down to methodology  and protocols.

Might be time for some new folk in the back rooms 

Agree the sample is big enough to warrant a review at the least. We have been told the players tired at the end of the season for 3 years now. Not sure why more supports don't see this.

Our sports science team and their programs aren't preparing players well enough to get through the season and back from injures. Simple!

1 hour ago, Demons1858 said:

Agree we had a tough fixture but what it did was expose our average conditioning. The fixture is out of our hands but we can control how the players prepare for the season, rehab and time their returns from injury.

Agree the sample is big enough to warrant a review at the least. We have been told the players tired at the end of the season for 3 years now. Not sure why more supports don't see this.

Our sports science team and their programs aren't preparing players well enough to get through the season and back from injures. Simple!

We were still the 3rd youngest list this year.  Injuries and the fixture forced a lot of players to play more game time than would have been ideal for their age and development. This is a likely reason for the fall off after the three consecutive 6 dayers.  No amount of preparation can prepare you for so many injuries to key players. That will hammer any team. You also can't blame the conditioning staff for players who get played before they are fully fit when coming back from injury.  That's down to the FD and the necessity of having to play underdone players. That necessity didn't work out too well. But that's a FD call not the conditioning staff.

Having said all of that as you say it is a fact that we've had bad fall offs in the past three seasons. Is that due to conditioning or a list that still has too many junior players who haven't had the requisite amount of time to build a physical foundation for a full season. I don't know the answer but I had hoped this year wouldn't be like the last part of last season and alas it was. So clearly it has to be fixed. Hopefully we get a more reasonable fixture next season. Hard to comprehend it could be worse. More luck with injuries and a critical mass of players who can play a full 25-26 match season. 

1 hour ago, It's Time said:

We were still the 3rd youngest list this year.  Injuries and the fixture forced a lot of players to play more game time than would have been ideal for their age and development. This is a likely reason for the fall off after the three consecutive 6 dayers.  No amount of preparation can prepare you for so many injuries to key players. That will hammer any team. You also can't blame the conditioning staff for players who get played before they are fully fit when coming back from injury.  That's down to the FD and the necessity of having to play underdone players. That necessity didn't work out too well. But that's a FD call not the conditioning staff.

Having said all of that as you say it is a fact that we've had bad fall offs in the past three seasons. Is that due to conditioning or a list that still has too many junior players who haven't had the requisite amount of time to build a physical foundation for a full season. I don't know the answer but I had hoped this year wouldn't be like the last part of last season and alas it was. So clearly it has to be fixed. Hopefully we get a more reasonable fixture next season. Hard to comprehend it could be worse. More luck with injuries and a critical mass of players who can play a full 25-26 match season. 

I can and do "blame the conditioning staff for players who get played before they are fully fit when coming back from injury". I also put some of the blame on the FD (as you suggested) for not holdng players back or playing some of them in the 2's first. Sport science team puts targets in place for they players to achieve before they are up for selection, works with the docs, and provides recommendations to the FD. I heard Viney and Gawn mention repeatedly they have boxes to tick in rehab. Goodwin also declared a number of times that they would not play players if they were not ready during that period. The players that were in the team had done well enough to that point before we started to bring in the underdone 'starting 22' I'm afraid. Also not accepting youth as a excuse any more not for the 3rd year straight.

Edited September 7, 20177 yr by Demons1858

Had we scraped into finals we would try that little bit less in the off season because "hey we succeeded" by making the 8. 

We would also still have no Hogan (hammy) or Viney right now and would have been trounced by Port in Port.

Everything is as it should be.

why do people need to see 'suffering' to believe that the players/staff care...or that suffering/distress actually propels them forward...?

Being our most important game of the Season before the Finals, versus Collingwood, does anyone have any inkling of what  the  pep talk was about before the Game?

Even of you saw it on facebook, can someone help me with this, being my biggest letdown since confession.....

I like the fact that when Simon is on leave he is going on a study trip to the US to learn new styles and techniques in coaching. By looking at Goodwins playing achievements it's quite obvious he thrives on being the best, I have full faith that he is doing everthing he can in becoming one of the best coaches in the AFL.

On 9/6/2017 at 5:47 PM, bing181 said:

If you want more, a little Kahneman and Tversky would be the place to start.

Are they available in this year's draft? International rookies maybe?

 

14 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

Are they available in this year's draft? International rookies maybe?

 

Not sure that Amos Tversky would meet all the requirements for an International rookie contract. I could be mistaken, but I believe you have to be alive.