57 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

We have limited picks and limited salary cap space, I don’t think we can’t just use them on marginal upgrades.

Bringing Brown in will cost us Weideman’s spot in the side, a 2nd round pick and I’d imagine 600k or so. 
 

If we avoid Brown we could keep Weid, draft a 10 year player to add to the team and have salary cap space to make a serious play at Merrett or Kelly - the missing pieces of the midfield puzzle. 

I understand your reservations with Brown, Weid, Jackson and Fritsch in the forward line.

If Brown doesn’t come where do you see Petty playing next year?  I like him back in place of Tomlinson and I know you're not Tomlinson fan.  If Brown comes then Petty can definitely play back. 

I think Brown and Weid can work together, it's not really any different to the previously planned TMac and Weid.  If Jackson and Fritsch are there too then we have to get crumbiing and pressure from the other forward - Pickett and ???

Of course I'd love that to be Viney but concede that's unlikely.  I think we need to trade in a pressure forward if we get Brown.

6 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Want to bet? Jackson's going to play, he'll back up ruck and he's too talented not to contribute forward.

Goodwin's been talking for years about trying 3 big forwards and every time he tries it for a week or two he goes straight back to playing smaller and even at times this year just playing the 1 tall target. 

An elite KPF in Brown is a bit different to playing an inferior and broken player in TMac. 

We play Brown and Weid as the two tall targets. Jackson plays as a roaming option pushing further up the ground as a marking option, similar to Richardson at Tigers later in his career.
Fritsch isn't a tall, and will play pocket or flank regardless of those talls around him.

Successful teams have multiple tall marking options. No reason we can't too. Brown immediately improves our scoring, takes pressure off Weid being double teamed, and allows Jackson to develop at a realistic rate without heaping too much pressure on the 19 year old kid.

Edited October 22, 20204 yr by Lord Travis

3 minutes ago, Pollyanna said:

I understand your reservations with Brown, Weid, Jackson and Fritsch in the forward line.

If Brown doesn’t come where do you see Petty playing next year?  I like him back in place of Tomlinson and I know you're not Tomlinson fan.  If Brown comes then Petty can definitely play back. 

I think Brown and Weid can work together, it's not really any different to the previously planned TMac and Weid.  If Jackson and Fritsch are there too then we have to get crumbiing and pressure from the other forward - Pickett and ???

Of course I'd love that to be Viney but concede that's unlikely.  I think we need to trade in a pressure forward if we get Brown.

To the dismay of many here I think Spargo can play that role effectively, is a good kick, makes the right decisions often and is not as slow as people seem to think. The only problem is we have two of the shortest players in the AFL in one area of the ground

4 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Want to bet? Jackson's going to play, he'll back up ruck and he's too talented not to contribute forward.

Goodwin's been talking for years about trying 3 big forwards and every time he tries it for a week or two he goes straight back to playing smaller and even at times this year just playing the 1 tall target. 

Form is what will determine Sammy's position in the side, not the acquisition of Brown.  If he is in good enough form, he will play seniors.  If he's not playing seniors, then we will need Brown to help us kick a winning score, because LJ, going in to his second year, won't be able to do it.

If Goodwin can't make a Brown/Weid/LJ combination work, then he might as well give up coaching.

 

2 hours ago, chook fowler said:

pick 23 for an injured 28 year old who is not wanted by his club seems overs to me.

For an injured 28 yr old, what are you talking about.  The hasn’t missed a game since 2015 until this year.  During those full years he kicked 32,41,63,61 and 64 goals.   We have not had a player even come close to this..  

25 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Want to bet? Jackson's going to play, he'll back up ruck and he's too talented not to contribute forward.

Goodwin's been talking for years about trying 3 big forwards and every time he tries it for a week or two he goes straight back to playing smaller and even at times this year just playing the 1 tall target. 

Look I'm a big Weid fan but the facts are he's behind where Hawkins, Kennedy, Dixon and Lynch were at the same age. 

That's at least partly explainable because the KPF role is way harder now than it was 5 years ago for Lynch let alone 10 years ago for the other three.

I think that it's unlikely that Weid takes the role by the scruff next year and where the club is at, that's what we need someone to do.  The best 3 teams this year have that someone and Brisbane are chasing Daniher.

I think we need to pull the trigger on Brown and sort out "too many options" as the season progresses.  Someone may get injured - who knows? I'd prefer we have a choice.

Edited October 22, 20204 yr by Pollyanna

I might be jumping the gun here but bugger it

3 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I might be jumping the gun here but bugger it

#ThePhotoshopWhisperer

1 hour ago, DeeSpencer said:

We have limited picks and limited salary cap space, I don’t think we can’t just use them on marginal upgrades.

Bringing Brown in will cost us Weideman’s spot in the side, a 2nd round pick and I’d imagine 600k or so. 
 

If we avoid Brown we could keep Weid, draft a 10 year player to add to the team and have salary cap space to make a serious play at Merrett or Kelly - the missing pieces of the midfield puzzle. 

I liked Weideman's 2020 but I don't think he can do it alone and I don't think he can do it with Jackson as the only other tall marking option in the forward line in 2021. Jackson's young and inexperienced. He's supremely talented, but we need to be challenging next year, not in 3-5 years.

The remaining issues you've raised are no certainties of happening: there's no guarantee we keep any pick we'd spend on Brown and get a "10 year player to add to the team", and there's no guarantee if we hold salary cap space that we bring in anyone better than Brown.

The real argument against taking Brown isn't any of that, it's whether we can be a successful side with a forward line of Brown, Weideman, Jackson, Fritsch and two others. For the reasons many have previously articulated in this thread, I think we can. I accept it's no guarantee, but I don't accept it's a necessary failure.

6 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I liked Weideman's 2020 but I don't think he can do it alone and I don't think he can do it with Jackson as the only other tall marking option in the forward line in 2021. Jackson's young and inexperienced. He's supremely talented, but we need to be challenging next year, not in 3-5 years.

The remaining issues you've raised are no certainties of happening: there's no guarantee we keep any pick we'd spend on Brown and get a "10 year player to add to the team", and there's no guarantee if we hold salary cap space that we bring in anyone better than Brown.

The real argument against taking Brown isn't any of that, it's whether we can be a successful side with a forward line of Brown, Weideman, Jackson, Fritsch and two others. For the reasons many have previously articulated in this thread, I think we can. I accept it's no guarantee, but I don't accept it's a necessary failure.

Problem is that forward line is to tall and no pressure, id give Jackson say 30% forward 50% On ball and 20 % ruck see how he goes, use Kossi and spargo and maybe Viney roatating with him.

8 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I might be jumping the gun here but bugger it

ET are you suggesting Brown might come to us. First I have heard of it. You really are the  trade news breaker supreme. 
Do you think we will keep Preuss and Hannan?

1 minute ago, Redleg said:

ET are you suggesting Brown might come to us. First I have heard of it. You really are the  trade news breaker supreme. 
Do you think we will keep Preuss and Hannan?

I’m hearing whispers that they’re both going to request a trade. Keep it to yourself though. 

4 minutes ago, Rednblueriseing said:

Problem is that forward line is to tall and no pressure, id give Jackson say 30% forward 50% On ball and 20 % ruck see how he goes, use Kossi and spargo and maybe Viney roatating with him.

The no pressure argument is true based on previous form.

Is the solution to assume that can't change, or is it to implore Weideman and Fritsch to add defensive pressure/chasing/tackling to their games?

1 minute ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I’m hearing whispers that they’re both going to request a trade. Keep it to yourself though. 

Who needs these hack journos when we have you?

On another note, if we can move 6 -8 NQR players on either traded or delisted and get 1-2 best 22 players in, plus say a couple more,  through trades or draft picks, who are either nearly best 22, or who can develop into best 22, we are a mile ahead. 
That sort of list movement then still allows some speculative selections later in the draft. 
I am a fan of less depth and more talent, even if it leaves you a little exposed to a bad injury run. IMO if they aren’t  good enough, move a number of them on each year and try to improve the best 22 possibles deeper into the 20’s and maybe early 30’s.

11 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

The no pressure argument is true based on previous form.

Is the solution to assume that can't change, or is it to implore Weideman and Fritsch to add defensive pressure/chasing/tackling to their games?

The coach must demand every forward does his bit defensively, hope they can

i always thought one of the best things weed did in his purple patch in late 2018 was (not just marking, kicking, goaling, and relief rucking but also) providing defensive pressure

his tackling to end that season was strong i thought - 3 in round 22 over in the west, 1 in the big win over gw$ in the final round, then 4 each in the two finals wins before 0 in the last game of that year

the ball basically wasn't in our forward line against meth coke in the prelim and his tackling this season was basically non-existent

i'm confident that he can provide the necessary defensive pressure when required

45 minutes ago, The Chazz said:

Form is what will determine Sammy's position in the side, not the acquisition of Brown.  If he is in good enough form, he will play seniors.  If he's not playing seniors, then we will need Brown to help us kick a winning score, because LJ, going in to his second year, won't be able to do it.

If Goodwin can't make a Brown/Weid/LJ combination work, then he might as well give up coaching.

 

There's not a coach in the AFL that can make that combination work whilst maintaining the defensive pressure and work rate required to support a backline.

Richmond have flirted with playing Mabior Chol alongside their 2 key forwards but he just gets in the way and Lynch and Riewoldt are both solid at ground level, whenever they play 2 rucks they sit one on the bench the entire game. They don't even play Josh Caddy who would make a very nice 3rd tall goal kicker, they are happy to move Dusty forward when needed.

Brisbane play 2 rucks and 2 talls but both of their key forwards are incredibly mobile and very sound defensively (they just aren't good enough at being key forwards).

Geelong I'm sure would love to play Esava or Jenkins instead of Gary Rohan or one of their midgets and let Dangerfield play more midfield time that he has been in these finals. But they don't because they can get enough out of Stanley when he's not rucking and don't want to crowd their forward line or lose anything defensively. 

Port play 2 rucks and 2 key forwards. Dixon is a great tackler when he's healthy and Todd Marshall is an incredible athlete but really he's just 198cm of flanker. No doubt they'd love to have Georgiades in their best 22 but they know until he increases his defensive work they are better off without him.

West Coast are the one team that routinely plays 3 key forwards but Josh Kennedy would run laps around Ben Brown, Darling is in another league than Weideman as a half forward and defensive player and Oscar Allen compares favourably to Jacko as a ground level forward.

 

We made a huge mistake in backing in Weid and Tmac when Hogan left. didn't understand the referred pressure that would be on them to back up what really was some good form. 

I think we see this as a chance to undo that mistake. 

I also think we're at risk of putting to much pressure on Jackson, yes he's very talented, but to put all your bets on him being the second forward target at AFL level for a full season in a team that should be aiming to be top 6 is a huge ask for a very raw second year player. Brown totally removes that pressure off him. 

I don't expect Jackson to play every game in the 1's next year, he's going to take time to develop. 

Brown and Weideman i'm confident can work together. 

42 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

I liked Weideman's 2020 but I don't think he can do it alone and I don't think he can do it with Jackson as the only other tall marking option in the forward line in 2021. Jackson's young and inexperienced. He's supremely talented, but we need to be challenging next year, not in 3-5 years.

The remaining issues you've raised are no certainties of happening: there's no guarantee we keep any pick we'd spend on Brown and get a "10 year player to add to the team", and there's no guarantee if we hold salary cap space that we bring in anyone better than Brown.

They don't have to do it alone. Petracca should spend more time forward next year and when the games demand it he should be the match up inside 50 like he was against the Saints. Fritsch will be there as a goal kicker. And there's room for a 4th marking option (tall or medium) as long as they contribute in other ways - a Petty, Melksham, Hunt or Harmes. Even get creative and put Kozzie at full forward and kick it over the top or out to space. Jackson should ruck more when the match up presents and allow Gawn to play more forward. If we're having days where a team drops back and clogs the 50m arc there's no better solution than a 208cm monster who rarely gets out marked.

No individual draft pick - especially one in the mid 20's is a sure thing, but we have to keep having tickets in the lottery that is the draft each year. We went a few years loading up at top end picks but missing on late ones and just not taking enough in the top 40 or so and we've created a hole in the list. 

Same kind of thinking for the salary. It's incredibly expensive to bring star players in and even just to hold on to your own stars. Brown shouldn't be one of those super expensive deals, but he takes up enough cash to restrict you from even having the opportunity.

32 minutes ago, Patches O’houlihan said:

We made a huge mistake in backing in Weid and Tmac when Hogan left. didn't understand the referred pressure that would be on them to back up what really was some good form. 

I think we see this as a chance to undo that mistake. 

I also think we're at risk of putting to much pressure on Jackson, yes he's very talented, but to put all your bets on him being the second forward target at AFL level for a full season in a team that should be aiming to be top 6 is a huge ask for a very raw second year player. Brown totally removes that pressure off him. 

I don't expect Jackson to play every game in the 1's next year, he's going to take time to develop. 

Brown and Weideman i'm confident can work together. 

The Tom and Sam combination rolled us in to finals - beating top 8 sides for the first time all season - and then winning 2 finals, and the pressure was too much?

Inadequate depth I'll grant you - because we kept battlers like Keilty and the very unlucky Tim Smith on the list rather than drafting and developing depth. Poor medical management for sure - no forwards would've done anything with that midfield in 2019 being so underdone. Awful coaching - the lack of run and skill in our side meant we had no game plan besides plan A, which also is overly physical and not an encouraging way to play.

But apart from the fact we manage to make players worse over summer all the time those guys were ready to be the guys with the right team around them. Weideman is even more ready now and showed it this year. Tom has managed to completely break his own body, spirit and confidence and so should be replaced. 

Brown would give us depth, but not the kind of cheap, young, hungry and developing depth we need across all positions that you get by taking the right draft picks and the right mature age or delisted pick ups.

1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I might be jumping the gun here but bugger it

Nice fit. I'm on the record as a fan of Brown's big fuzzy head, but by god that would look atrocious in a Freo or Essendon jumper. Should come to us for aesthetics-sakes. 

Offical. Ben brown has someone running his life and has changed priorities.. More interested in being a PC warrior than just doing his job as a player. Not just letting the player into the Club.

4 hours ago, FireInTheBennelly said:

#ThePhotoshopWhisperer

???

 

1 hour ago, Half forward flank said:

Offical. Ben brown has someone running his life and has changed priorities.. More interested in being a PC warrior than just doing his job as a player. Not just letting the player into the Club.

Umm,  say what now?