Changes vs Carlton

[Satyriconhome 10,010]

13 hours ago, Deestroy All said:

As opposed to sitting there reminiscing about all the small talk you've engaged in with each player as they gather a stat?

Nah, we just get the same four or five pages of group think waffle about why a player should be dropped, we have had some classics this year, the clamouring for Omac to be continually dropped the standout, the Changes topic for me runs the Gameday thread a close second for comedy gold

[dazzledavey36 49,335]

4 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Nah, we just get the same four or five pages of group think waffle about why a player should be dropped, we have had some classics this year, the clamouring for Omac to be continually dropped the standout, the Changes topic for me runs the Gameday thread a close second for comedy gold

Then simply don't read them.

[Satyriconhome 10,010]

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Then simply don't read them.

And deprive myself of it, nah, don't post very often in either, just read............

[jackaub 1,402]

If Hogan isn't 100% with fitness and attitude I wouldn't play him

He is far too easy for oppo to negate at the moment IMO

Doesn't kick goals he should and field kicking is getting poorer by the week

Wiederman for me he could kick plenty against a weak Carlton back line

Not sure about Michie but ok if wet

[Satyriconhome 10,010]

15 minutes ago, jackaub said:

If Hogan isn't 100% with fitness and attitude I wouldn't play him

He is far too easy for oppo to negate at the moment IMO

Doesn't kick goals he should and field kicking is getting poorer by the week

Wiederman for me he could kick plenty against a weak Carlton back line

Not sure about Michie but ok if wet

Jack Viney "Hoges is playing his role, he gets the best defender each week, he helps create opportunities for others"

[jackaub 1,402]

Not from what I have observed saty

Missed easy goals, ran too far up the ground, poor field kicking and the body language of a petulant child.

Not a very attractive look and I will say it again our forward line looks congested when he plays compared to when he doesnt

But that, as you know is only how it looks to me 

 

[stuie 7,374]

11 hours ago, Grapeviney said:

Yeh, and at the end of season 2, Watts wasn't in the best 22; clearly, his career hadn't been salvaged at that point. 

Are people really arguing that 2016 isn't the year it's clicked for him?

Is that what I said? I said Roosy has been there 3 years, clearly working on Watts the whole time, so it's not a magical overnight solution.

 

[Moonshadow 16,409]

15 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Not from what I have observed saty

Missed easy goals, ran too far up the ground, poor field kicking and the body language of a petulant child.

Not a very attractive look and I will say it again our forward line looks congested when he plays compared to when he doesnt

But that, as you know is only how it looks to me 

 

You're not alone in that thought Jack. From the oitside he appears to do all the things you mention. Not sure I'd drop him though. If he's fit I'd rather play him into form. He's our best KPF and we sometimes forget his age and games played. Well, i do anyway. 

He's going to be our dominant forward for the next 10 years (assuming he stays). Playing him at Casey when fit isn't a good idea IMO. 

[jackaub 1,402]

12 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

You're not alone in that thought Jack. From the oitside he appears to do all the things you mention. Not sure I'd drop him though. If he's fit I'd rather play him into form. He's our best KPF and we sometimes forget his age and games played. Well, i do anyway. 

He's going to be our dominant forward for the next 10 years (assuming he stays). Playing him at Casey when fit isn't a good idea IMO. 

Yes understand that Moonie, I just wish he concentrated on his  game, lose the bad body language and really have a break out game kicking 6 plus and destoying an oppo

He doesnt seem to be capable of that at the moment but i know he can and will so all good for future. I am concerned that we will need to kick good scores v Carlton and Geelong  to have a chance and he is a major part of that.

[Bossdog 2,002]

3 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Yes understand that Moonie, I just wish he concentrated on his  game, lose the bad body language and really have a break out game kicking 6 plus and destoying an oppo

He doesnt seem to be capable of that at the moment but i know he can and will so all good for future. I am concerned that we will need to kick good scores v Carlton and Geelong  to have a chance and he is a major part of that.

It doesn't matter who kicks the goals........I'd rather have 10 players kick goals and win, rather than Hogan kick 5 and lose

[What 18,810]

46 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

Jack Viney "Hoges is playing his role, he gets the best defender each week, he helps create opportunities for others"

 

Thats called being diplomatic, ie. media training.

Hogan has had a terrible month and we didnt miss him at all vs Hawks.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

41 minutes ago, Moonshadow said:

You're not alone in that thought Jack.

Amazing how fans can turn on their favourite player after a few games below his best.

A young player in his second season playing the hardest position on the ground against the oppositions best defender, often drawing a second player, now becomes the target because the punters are disappointed.  Yes, he's missed a few goals - go look at Gunston against us - yes he's still learning and yes his body language is not ideal but those close to him say it's his disappointment in himself, not his team mates, that this reflects.  Look at the replay last week and the thumbs up to players who looked for him and he failed to mark.

The kids a gun, the punters are sadly misguided and calls for his demotion laughable.

[Gator 16,921]

27 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Amazing how fans can turn on their favourite player after a few games below his best.

A young player in his second season playing the hardest position on the ground against the oppositions best defender, often drawing a second player, now becomes the target because the punters are disappointed.  Yes, he's missed a few goals - go look at Gunston against us - yes he's still learning and yes his body language is not ideal but those close to him say it's his disappointment in himself, not his team mates, that this reflects.  Look at the replay last week and the thumbs up to players who looked for him and he failed to mark.

The kids a gun, the punters are sadly misguided and calls for his demotion laughable.

Well said.

We've been waiting for a forward like Hogan to come to the club for 15 years and some seem oblivious to his talent. 

[jackaub 1,402]

35 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Amazing how fans can turn on their favourite player after a few games below his best.

A young player in his second season playing the hardest position on the ground against the oppositions best defender, often drawing a second player, now becomes the target because the punters are disappointed.  Yes, he's missed a few goals - go look at Gunston against us - yes he's still learning and yes his body language is not ideal but those close to him say it's his disappointment in himself, not his team mates, that this reflects.  Look at the replay last week and the thumbs up to players who looked for him and he failed to mark.

The kids a gun, the punters are sadly misguided and calls for his demotion laughable.

I have not turned on a favourite player as you assert Vogon. Why you say that is beyond me some  sort of blind loyalty to shut down any  analysis or comment who is not playing well and han't for some time. I have consistently said it all year. He needs coaching  and assistance with his attitude on game day is all i have requested.

He is  as you say a valuable player I just want him to start playing like one and I know he can.

[stuie 7,374]

25 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Well said.

We've been waiting for a forward like Hogan to come to the club for 15 years and some seem oblivious to his talent. 

No one is oblivious to his talent. No one. But seemingly there are a few who are oblivious (possibly willfully) to the areas he has to work on.

 

[ArtificialWisdom 3,932]

58 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

Amazing how fans can turn on their favourite player after a few games below his best.

A young player in his second season playing the hardest position on the ground against the oppositions best defender, often drawing a second player, now becomes the target because the punters are disappointed.  Yes, he's missed a few goals - go look at Gunston against us - yes he's still learning and yes his body language is not ideal but those close to him say it's his disappointment in himself, not his team mates, that this reflects.  Look at the replay last week and the thumbs up to players who looked for him and he failed to mark.

The kids a gun, the punters are sadly misguided and calls for his demotion laughable.

I agree with everything right up until this. They aren't laughable, there are obvious problems with his past months form. Personally I dont think he should be dropped but there is a very good case for it. Weiderman and Pederson have provided more in their recent games than Hogan. Yet 1 of the others will miss out to make way for him. It's hard call for such a talent but dropping Jeffy got an quick response as with dropping Bugg and even Kennedy worked the first time. Maybe the same would happen if you dropped Hogan.  Nobody is saying he isnt a future star but a little reminder of what is required may not be the worst thing. 

[stuie 7,374]

1 minute ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Nobody is saying he isnt a future star but a little reminder of what is required may not be the worst thing. 

Exactly. People are forgetting that sometimes going back to VFL level to work on things is part of successful development. We can't go back to the days of just locking in talented kids into the 22 no matter what. Being dropped isn't the end of your career, it's part of your development.

 

[jackaub 1,402]

I dont understand some being so defensive of players who are clearly struggling

But all have a view that's what makes this site work

[Demons11 6,404]

2 hours ago, jackaub said:

If Hogan isn't 100% with fitness and attitude I wouldn't play him

He is far too easy for oppo to negate at the moment IMO

Doesn't kick goals he should and field kicking is getting poorer by the week

Wiederman for me he could kick plenty against a weak Carlton back line

Not sure about Michie but ok if wet

Are you kidding here.  Hogan is our best forward and may have had a couple of quiet games but he was injured in one of those.  He is our best forward and doesn't get dropped. 

The fact you think a 19 yr old 2nd game player should replace him is ridiculous.   

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

Are you kidding here.  Hogan is our best forward and may have had a couple of quiet games but he was injured in one of those.  He is our best forward and doesn't get dropped. 

The fact you think a 19 yr old 2nd game player should replace him is ridiculous.   

Yeah let's destroy our culture and go back to playing talented kids every week despite what their form may be...

 

[jackaub 1,402]

7 minutes ago, Demons11 said:

Are you kidding here.  Hogan is our best forward and may have had a couple of quiet games but he was injured in one of those.  He is our best forward and doesn't get dropped. 

The fact you think a 19 yr old 2nd game player should replace him is ridiculous.   

He is not currently our best forward. You cannot tell me he has been. he has bad habits that need to be eradicated from his  game.

 Given that I am sure he will become our best forward

I just think he is not getting anywhere near the best out of his talent at the moment and needs 

coaching and attitude modification where necesary. That is all.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Hogan is good when he leads at the ball carrier, at the moment he isn't doing that.

I don't get excited by him chasing kicks up in the middle of the ground because his kicking for goal is such a concern when he's more than about 35 metres out.

Edited August 19, 2016 by Clint Bizkit

[jackaub 1,402]

So it is obvious he is not leading qat the ball.Why is that?:

Is he injured ? But if he is not right to go dont play him

Why is that so difficult for some on here

[nutbean 8,837]

2 hours ago, jackaub said:

Not from what I have observed saty

Missed easy goals, ran too far up the ground, poor field kicking and the body language of a petulant child.

Not a very attractive look and I will say it again our forward line looks congested when he plays compared to when he doesnt

But that, as you know is only how it looks to me 

 

I will pick you up on the obvious contradiction - when Hogan plays, how can the forward look congested when you criticize him for running too far up the ground ?

There has been some criticism of him not kicking enough goals and i do see him pushing up the ground. The criticism of him running up the ground should be leveled at the coaches as he, in all likelyhood, is playing to instruction. He was poor last week and still took 6 marks - some around the centre of the ground. 

I think Hogan looks much better when he is on the move and I still believe he will be a better CHF than a full forward. I dont worry about him not kicking bags of goals - although he should nail the goals that he missed last week.

[rjay 24,046]

27 minutes ago, stuie said:

Exactly. People are forgetting that sometimes going back to VFL level to work on things is part of successful development. We can't go back to the days of just locking in talented kids into the 22 no matter what. Being dropped isn't the end of your career, it's part of your development.

 

 

25 minutes ago, jackaub said:

I dont understand some being so defensive of players who are clearly struggling

But all have a view that's what makes this site work

 

9 minutes ago, stuie said:

Yeah let's destroy our culture and go back to playing talented kids every week despite what their form may be...

 

 

2 minutes ago, jackaub said:

He is not currently our best forward. You cannot tell me he has been. he has bad habits that need to be eradicated from his  game.

 Given that I am sure he will become our best forward

I just think he is not getting anywhere near the best out of his talent at the moment and needs 

coaching and attitude modification where necesary. That is all.

Hogan is our best forward, he draws the oppositions best defender and they get numbers back on him. This should open the game out for our other scoring options.

I think sometimes we have a tendency to bomb the ball into him or be a bit too Hogan focussed. We need to learn to use his strengths and work better moving the ball in with multiple options and lowering the eyes.

It's time to start using Hogan & Weideman and building the forward structure with these 2 and Watts.

There is no point in him going back to the VFL unless we want to be a "rabble without a plan"...Collingwood, Richmond.