On 02/07/2016 at 00:56, Biffen said:

 I nearly voted for a sex party but I looked around me and even that seemed depressing.

Next time I think I will go postal during the election .

Ah well there is no need to despair Biff. We will all sleep better when Senator Hanson is restored to her rightful position in the House. No need to concern ourselves about "social issues" then.

  On 02/07/2016 at 08:12, Bitter but optimistic said:

Ah well there is no need to despair Biff. We will all sleep better when Senator Hanson is restored to her rightful position in the House. No need to concern ourselves about "social issues" then.

and not forgetting our very own (well 2nd hand) derryn. then there is always the apple in the pie, nasher's very own jaqui lambie. we will be spoilt with social engineers par excellence 

  On 02/07/2016 at 08:12, Bitter but optimistic said:

Ah well there is no need to despair Biff. We will all sleep better when Senator Hanson is restored to her rightful position in the House. No need to concern ourselves about "social issues" then.

 

  On 02/07/2016 at 08:59, daisycutter said:

and not forgetting our very own (well 2 hand) derryn. then there is always the apple in the pie, nasher's very own jaqui lambie.

we will be spoilt with social engineers par excellence 

Now there's a 3some uncle bitter could work over.

Hair everywhere, uncle.

You may need the selfraising flower, for the bearded one ?

  On 02/07/2016 at 08:59, daisycutter said:

and not forgetting our very own (well 2nd hand) derryn. then there is always the apple in the pie, nasher's very own jaqui lambie. we will be spoilt with social engineers par excellence 

Yes a powerful team is building on the cross benches. The joys and wonders of our democratic system!!

  On 02/07/2016 at 11:30, DV8 said:

 

Now there's a 3some uncle bitter could work over.

Hair everywhere, uncle.

You may need the selfraising flower, for the bearded one ?

I would suggest something more powerful than flour.

  On 01/07/2016 at 05:04, Return to Glory said:

I'm inclined to agree Dr Drake but I don't think it's entirely straight forward. I had a little involvement across a couple of leagues and there is significant variation in how clubs operate and respond to social issues. Just a couple of points I'd like to add to the discussion:

• Social awareness and appropriate duty of care often starts with the make up of the administration of grassroots clubs. With the welcome increase in female participation I really hope comes an increase in women willing to take on key administration roles. Whatever you want to call it, it appears to create a positive community atmosphere. I admit this is anecdotal but I saw the positive impact strong women can make at a number of clubs. To this end, furthering the already existing links between football and netball should be encouraged.
• The role of the coach at both the under 18 and reserve level is critical, not just from an on-field perspective but in setting the tone for those players moving from adolescence to manhood (or womanhood as may be the case). For instance, there is a tough area of Frankston that had a strong 1st coach who played a significant role in changing the perception of the club over a fair period of time. He was needed and his arrival was timely (not sure if he's still there). The reserves coach, on the other hand, was a polar opposite and undermined much of the work being done. He brought with him a collection of half wits and, unfortunately, he was, for many of the younger players, their first involvement with a senior coach. Ultimately, appointments of coaches come from clubs but the various leagues across the country need more than sound bites, they need people on the ground. So yes, paying lip service is a problem for mine.

Hits a cord with me. At the AFL level it strikes me as insincere and populist. However at the grassroots level the example set by local coaches can be profound. Decades later i still hold my junior footy coach (who is currently a Strathbogie shire councillor) as being a great role model as to how you approach life and treat people.

  On 03/07/2016 at 00:42, TRIGON said:

Hits a cord with me. At the AFL level it strikes me as insincere and populist. However at the grassroots level the example set by local coaches can be profound. Decades later i still hold my junior footy coach (who is currently a Strathbogie shire councillor) as being a great role model as to how you approach life and treat people.

I would think a good many people could relate. The difference between a great coach and a poor one certainly extends beyond the footy field.

I actually don't think the AFL should be jumping on every social issue bandwagon. For mine, it should put the emphasis on grassroots primarily because it means working with those people actually involved in the game.

 

  On 03/07/2016 at 00:50, Return to Glory said:

I would think a good many people could relate. The difference between a great coach and a poor one certainly extends beyond the footy field.

I actually don't think the AFL should be jumping on every social issue bandwagon. For mine, it should put the emphasis on grassroots primarily because it means working with those people actually involved in the game.

 

Actually had this conversation with AFl Vic and a suburban league about Junior coaches the other day. It is like the AFL draft a pure Lottery when a suburban club is looking for Junior coaches, you put it out there, advertise amongst parents and other methods and usually you get Crickets if lucky you might get 1 person to apply maybe two.  You then need to hope that person isn't an ego or peanut and has some sort of coaching ability.  Getting L1 coaching is just a time thing, I reckon no one ever fails as along as they attend you get your L1.  The pressures on suburban clubs now are at all time highs.  

  On 03/07/2016 at 00:25, Bitter but optimistic said:

I would suggest something more powerful than flour.

Flypaper, Superglue?  Bitumen & feathers.

Maybe a Jurassic Spider web?  

on social issues, i notice carlscum will be wearing all orange socks (yuk) in support of family violence prevention in the match vs wet toast this weekend.

  On 13/07/2016 at 00:13, daisycutter said:

on social issues, i notice carlscum will be wearing all orange socks (yuk) in support of family violence prevention in the match vs wet toast this weekend.

The world is full of tokenism DC. In fact the AFL might very well be the world champions.

  On 30/06/2016 at 06:53, radar said:

Was gunna say AFL should stick to what it knows best. 

Not sure they even do that now. 

Good start would be turn off Friggin speakers. 

Touche`. Let the AFL focus on getting it's core business right before dabbling in social issues in a tokenistic, half arsed way only to boost it's own image in the wider community. If they care about violence against women, drug use in society, antisocial violent behaviour by AFL registered players in the community or even racism, we know damn well that the way they should  have reacted to all those issues would have been entirely different to what has occured.

 

  On 01/07/2016 at 22:17, Petraccattack said:

The AFL is a sport of bogans, run by glorified bogans. Nobody ever has or ever will take them seriously on social issues. 

They should stick to what they do best - Americanising the game of Aussie Rules

Gil's problem is that he isn't a bogan. Most footy supporters are influenced by the old school - whether it is parents, past heroes, etc. Gil doesn't understand those people. He just doesn't get it, much like his brother when I see him in interviews. There is just something missing altogether. I would argue that a bogan would run the AFL better than GIl, just based on the assumption that he couldn't possibly do any worse. 

A women's league is the best they are doing in terms of "social justice". They're not pandering: there's talent and public interest. They're servicing that and empowering young women to get involved in the sport and go pro.

All other initiatives are PR exercises. Indigenous Round, Multicultural Round, (soon to be) Gay Pride Round. It's all [censored] conjured up to please a minority who think having a branded round does anything. 

I mean, guys like Eddie Betts, Adam Goodes (love or hate him), Lance Franklin do more for young Indigenous than the Indigenous Round does. 

Empowerment imo comes from good individual leaders who empower those to better themselves. 

"Social justice" really just devalues the means and capacity of the individual to influence and drive change, preferring "themes" and collective recognition as a means to make people feel better about themselves. It's pandering, and it's ineffective.

That said, things like gambling and violence against women...but your talking directly about changing attitudes around behavior...I think that's different.

  On 13/07/2016 at 20:38, praha said:

A women's league is the best they are doing in terms of "social justice". They're not pandering: there's talent and public interest. They're servicing that and empowering young women to get involved in the sport and go pro.

All other initiatives are PR exercises. Indigenous Round, Multicultural Round, (soon to be) Gay Pride Round. It's all [censored] conjured up to please a minority who think having a branded round does anything. 

I mean, guys like Eddie Betts, Adam Goodes (love or hate him), Lance Franklin do more for young Indigenous than the Indigenous Round does. 

Empowerment imo comes from good individual leaders who empower those to better themselves. 

"Social justice" really just devalues the means and capacity of the individual to influence and drive change, preferring "themes" and collective recognition as a means to make people feel better about themselves. It's pandering, and it's ineffective.

That said, things like gambling and violence against women...but your talking directly about changing attitudes around behavior...I think that's different.

The Indigenous round and multicultural round are about changing awareness for issues, which in turn changes attitudes and behavior. I can't see the difference int eh destiction you have made.

the question is whether the AFL should take a LEAD on social issues, not whether they should adopt good behaviours and support for social issues.

i'd be very wary of the afl taking any lead on anything except football. even there they have their issues (outside of the business aspect)

  On 13/07/2016 at 23:23, Chris said:

The Indigenous round and multicultural round are about changing awareness for issues, which in turn changes attitudes and behavior. I can't see the difference int eh destiction you have made.

No, the Indigenous and Multicultural Round amplify issues that don't exist, or which are squashed by individual feats of empowerment  (see my comment on that above). What issues does the Indigenous Round attempt to address? It seems very vague to me, with no distinct purpose. Simply saying "recognition" is just trivial, because we already recognise good players irrespective of skin color, but we recognise Indigenous players are generally being very good additions because they tend to be the same sort of player (with some exceptions, obviously). The AFL and its clubs are among the most supportive of those communities and I wouldn't be surprised if the AFL was the country's most prominent employee of Indigenous youth. That's genuine support and recognition. Indigenous Round treats their culture like it's incapable of being amplified or understood on its own accord through the players who make it. I've learned more about that culture from the likes of Goodes than I did from the Round specifically. It's a PR stunt that plays out like the participation ceremony at a primary school swimming carnival. "Oh, thanks for being you! Have a participation medal!" It's condescending. It's really got nothing to do with race for me. I just find it to be pandering to the point of being racist in and of itself, like as if Indigenous culture is incapable of self-managed recognition.

What did you learn from multicultural round? How does it change social attitudes? 

Nothing beats individual accomplishment and the ability to encourage and inspire and empower.  Either of those rounds do that. It's the players themselves that are in control of that.

  On 14/07/2016 at 23:33, praha said:

No, the Indigenous and Multicultural Round amplify issues that don't exist, or which are squashed by individual feats of empowerment  (see my comment on that above). What issues does the Indigenous Round attempt to address? It seems very vague to me, with no distinct purpose. Simply saying "recognition" is just trivial, because we already recognise good players irrespective of skin color, but we recognise Indigenous players are generally being very good additions because they tend to be the same sort of player (with some exceptions, obviously). The AFL and its clubs are among the most supportive of those communities and I wouldn't be surprised if the AFL was the country's most prominent employee of Indigenous youth. That's genuine support and recognition. Indigenous Round treats their culture like it's incapable of being amplified or understood on its own accord through the players who make it. I've learned more about that culture from the likes of Goodes than I did from the Round specifically. It's a PR stunt that plays out like the participation ceremony at a primary school swimming carnival. "Oh, thanks for being you! Have a participation medal!" It's condescending. It's really got nothing to do with race for me. I just find it to be pandering to the point of being racist in and of itself, like as if Indigenous culture is incapable of self-managed recognition.

What did you learn from multicultural round? How does it change social attitudes? 

Nothing beats individual accomplishment and the ability to encourage and inspire and empower.  Either of those rounds do that. It's the players themselves that are in control of that.

Interesting points, but I reckon that says more about how the AFL suck at social issues than a reflection that it isn't worthwhile.

The way Indigenous round is done doesn't really achieve much (I agree with you on that). It's not like we as a society go away from one of those games saying "oh wow, I had no idea Indigenous Australians had such a low life expectancy compared with the rest of the country, lucky they told me and then gave me this specific way I can help fix the problem".

As with most of what the AFL does, it's all about image over substance.

I'm glad their programs in those communities are working, but those programs have little to do with their token round.

I also feel like they try to take on too much and end up failing at all of it.

  On 14/07/2016 at 23:33, praha said:

No, the Indigenous and Multicultural Round amplify issues that don't exist, or which are squashed by individual feats of empowerment  (see my comment on that above). What issues does the Indigenous Round attempt to address? It seems very vague to me, with no distinct purpose. Simply saying "recognition" is just trivial, because we already recognise good players irrespective of skin color, but we recognise Indigenous players are generally being very good additions because they tend to be the same sort of player (with some exceptions, obviously). The AFL and its clubs are among the most supportive of those communities and I wouldn't be surprised if the AFL was the country's most prominent employee of Indigenous youth. That's genuine support and recognition. Indigenous Round treats their culture like it's incapable of being amplified or understood on its own accord through the players who make it. I've learned more about that culture from the likes of Goodes than I did from the Round specifically. It's a PR stunt that plays out like the participation ceremony at a primary school swimming carnival. "Oh, thanks for being you! Have a participation medal!" It's condescending. It's really got nothing to do with race for me. I just find it to be pandering to the point of being racist in and of itself, like as if Indigenous culture is incapable of self-managed recognition.

What did you learn from multicultural round? How does it change social attitudes? 

Nothing beats individual accomplishment and the ability to encourage and inspire and empower.  Either of those rounds do that. It's the players themselves that are in control of that.

Multicultural round is a celebration of all the cultures we have int eh country. I didn't learn anything really but I already celebrate that. 

Your comments on the Indigenous round are puzzling. Which issues don't exist praha, the low education levels, the high incarceration rate, the poor health outcomes, the mass poverty, the high violence rates, the high homeless rates, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. It is all these issues the recognise camapign is about, it isn't about how good is a footballer, that is actually pretty much irrelevant. It is about getting Australians as a whole to recognise Indigenous culture, celebrate Indigenous culture, while at the same time hoping that through this recognition there will be an increase in the recognition of the issues and agreement to work towards solutions. Closing the gap between Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians. 

This discussion about these rounds has actually raised many of the issues and may well have taught a person or two (me included) about what is going on. 

if the afl want to have any credibility on social issues they first need to address their unhealthy association and reliance on gambling, rather than their feel-good, look-at-me tokenism

Don't bet on it happening any time soon Dc

  On 15/07/2016 at 00:48, daisycutter said:

if the afl want to have any credibility on social issues they first need to address their unhealthy association and reliance on gambling, rather than their feel-good, look-at-me tokenism

And also their immediate cover up/downplay of every boof headed racist comment that comes out of eddie mcguires fat gob.

If it's racist, it's racist.

The "profile" of the perpetrator has bugger all to do with it.

Shows the afl is paying it no more than lip service.

Football is always taking a lead on social issues, whether it is conscious of it or not. When that Eff-wit Newman mouthes off with his racist, sexist, antediluvian, botoxic bile, he is taking the lead on social issues, even if he is too stupid to realise it. 

Hey Faulty, think we crossed in mid-air then. Great minds.....

  On 15/07/2016 at 00:47, Chris said:

Multicultural round is a celebration of all the cultures we have int eh country. I didn't learn anything really but I already celebrate that. 

Your comments on the Indigenous round are puzzling. Which issues don't exist praha, the low education levels, the high incarceration rate, the poor health outcomes, the mass poverty, the high violence rates, the high homeless rates, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. It is all these issues the recognise camapign is about, it isn't about how good is a footballer, that is actually pretty much irrelevant. It is about getting Australians as a whole to recognise Indigenous culture, celebrate Indigenous culture, while at the same time hoping that through this recognition there will be an increase in the recognition of the issues and agreement to work towards solutions. Closing the gap between Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians. 

This discussion about these rounds has actually raised many of the issues and may well have taught a person or two (me included) about what is going on. 

We celebrate this every day. We don't need a round to celebrate it. I just don't get "multiculturalism" and what it means. I understand that those most vocal against it are literally racists, but I'm a first-generation Australia with the most Italian name out there and I just don't understand "multiculturalism". It's condescending, like as if we all have to be open and accept and embrace and engage with different cultures, when we don't. One thing I see about Australia is that we actually lack an identity because we are either embarrassed of Australian language and slang and traditions, or we're too focused on making other people feel comfortable, when the opposite is that many just don't care, and they engage with other cultures daily anyway without really thinking about it. 

  Quote

Your comments on the Indigenous round are puzzling. Which issues don't exist praha, the low education levels, the high incarceration rate, the poor health outcomes, the mass poverty, the high violence rates, the high homeless rates, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc. It is all these issues the recognise camapign is about, it isn't about how good is a footballer, that is actually pretty much irrelevant. It is about getting Australians as a whole to recognise Indigenous culture, celebrate Indigenous culture, while at the same time hoping that through this recognition there will be an increase in the recognition of the issues and agreement to work towards solutions. Closing the gap between Indigenous and non Indigenous Australians. 

That is not what I meant about issues. These issues persist, the round treats them as being incapable of a fix unless we as a society address them, when the reality is that successful Indigenous stars are walking proof that you can make something of yourself without having people pander and talking and being sensitive about them. Do you really think this round does anything but pander and speak to the already converted? My views on the issues that plague Indigenous communities haven't changed AT ALL because of this round.

I just find it fascinating that a sport so ruthless in its competitiveness, as well as both team and individual achievements, can move so far away from actually constructively addressing the issues you mention. The gap is widening, not shrinking, and honestly, I don't think the world of the white man saying, "We recognise you" is going to fix anything. Whether you like it or not, to make it, make noise, be a leader and inspire people, you need to have special qualities in this world. 

This "progressive" kumbaya pandering is something I find to be condescending. IMO, the fact Adam Goodes won two Brownlows is in and off itself proof that we don't need an Indigenous Round.

If you want to help these communities and the youth, we should be propping up those that excel at the highest level, and there are plenty of them.