Hurried kick from the full back area.

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,660]

When there's a scrimmage in the full back area, the last thing you want is for one of your defenders to gain possession and do a quick short kick without time to seek a target.

These kicks invariably land in the hands of a waiting forward, who has a set shot for goal. I think "zone defence " makes this possible, because defenders are 5-10 metres from their man.

What should the defender do? He can't handball toward the boundary line.He has to dispose of the ball quickly. Should he make sure the kick goes low, and bounces before 15 metres? Obviously, if there's time the kick should go long and wide(assuming there's no time to seek a team-mate up field), but I'm talking about the really quick ball to boot, short kick out of the pack.

Have other Demonlanders noticed this frequent cause of "turnover" goals?

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

17 minutes ago, Jumping Jack Clennett said:

When there's a scrimmage in the full back area, the last thing you want is for one of your defenders to gain possession and do a quick short kick without time to seek a target.

These kicks invariably land in the hands of a waiting forward, who has a set shot for goal. I think "zone defence " makes this possible, because defenders are 5-10 metres from their man.

What should the defender do? He can't handball toward the boundary line.He has to dispose of the ball quickly. Should he make sure the kick goes low, and bounces before 15 metres? Obviously, if there's time the kick should go long and wide(assuming there's no time to seek a team-mate up field), but I'm talking about the really quick ball to boot, short kick out of the pack.

Have other Demonlanders noticed this frequent cause of "turnover" goals?

Yes JJC.  One of my greatest sources of frustration is exactly what you point out.   Our 'gameplan' out of defence seems lacking in this area specifically.  Note the Saints on the weekend.  They knew they could not totally contain Dangerfield, Selwood and to some extent Motlop - who did have a shocker by his own standards, but the Saints sat on these guys as much as possible, giving their defenders enough time to run and spread out of defence.  You have to admire their willingness to throw caution to the wind in this regard, but they moved the ball with speed out of defence, providing enough time for their run out of defence to isolate viable targets.  To me this is where we have room for considerable improvement. Our run and carry out of the backline is still is not up to standard.

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

It's a case-by-case scenario and will depend on many factors.

But what I will say is that as a back-line unit, we've been far too susceptible in our more recent past to this kind of play due to the bombardment of inside 50's against and also due to a lack of composure for most of our back-six.

Ideally you'd like to have defenders who, like most well-rounded defenders, have poise and composure and whose first instinct might be to give off to a player with more space and time. Obviously not all scenarios will allow for that, but I think we all know it's a trait that is definitely lacking in our back-line and it seems to be something that we continually miss when recruiting defenders. Composure.

I watch and marvel at players like Burgoyne, Birchell, Gibson and Hodge. Smart players who seem to be able to assess a number of options within a couple of seconds and give to to the best one. Be it a kick or a handball. 

We have too many defenders who refuse to give a creative and releasing handball to a player in a better position, simply because they don't have the same composure/awareness.

Clayton Oliver is someone who clearly possesses spatial awareness and composure. Watch him gather the ball in heavily congested areas with huge pressure and he'll nearly always give off to someone in the most advantageous position for us at that contest. Mitchell is the king of it and is amazing to watch.

There are times where these players will also just bang the ball on the boot. But as a back-line collective, the more composure defenders possess, the less likely you'll see rushed and thoughtless play.

 

 

Edited June 27, 2016 by stevethemanjordan

[nutbean 8,837]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

It's a case-by-case scenario and will depend on many factors.

But what I will say is that as a back-line unit, we've been far too susceptible in our more recent past to this kind of play due to the bombardment of inside 50's against and also due to a lack of composure for most of our back-six.

Ideally you'd like to have defenders who, like all great defenders, have poise and composure and whose first instinct might be to give off to a player with more space and time. Obviously not all scenarios will allow for that, but I think we all know it's a trait that is definitely lacking in our back-line and it seems to be something that we continually miss when recruiting defenders. Composure.

I watch and marvel at players like Burgoyne, Birchell, Gibson and Hodge. Smart players who seem to be able to assess a number of options within a couple of seconds and give to to the best one. Be it a kick or a handball. 

We have too many defenders who refuse to give a creative and releasing handball to a player in a better position, simply because they don't have the same composure/awareness.

Clayton Oliver is someone who clearly possesses spatial awareness and composure. Watch him gather the ball in heavily congested areas with huge pressure and he'll nearly always give off to someone in the most advantageous position for us at that contest. Mitchell is the king of it and is amazing to watch.

There are times where these players will also just bang the ball on the boot. But as a back-line collective, the more composure defenders possess, the less likely you'll see rushed and thoughtless play.

 

 

I will suggest that this is not just an MFC problem. Watch enough games and you will see most teams suffer from this however you are 100% spot on that the more composed footballers you have the less panic kicks that don't clear the defensive 50 you have. It also depends a lot on workrate - the harder a player works to create space the easier it is to exit the defensive 50. This workrate now has evolved to needing to be much higher than say 5 years ago as teams are so more adept at "building the wall" to keep the ball in. Really good teams at exiting their back half have burned us this year as we are so aggressive at pushing up that if the opposition are composed and do find a bit of space they find a way through and get a relatively easy goal over the back. 

[Binmans PA 26,685]

1 hour ago, stevethemanjordan said:

It's a case-by-case scenario and will depend on many factors.

But what I will say is that as a back-line unit, we've been far too susceptible in our more recent past to this kind of play due to the bombardment of inside 50's against and also due to a lack of composure for most of our back-six.

Ideally you'd like to have defenders who, like all great defenders, have poise and composure and whose first instinct might be to give off to a player with more space and time. Obviously not all scenarios will allow for that, but I think we all know it's a trait that is definitely lacking in our back-line and it seems to be something that we continually miss when recruiting defenders. Composure.

I watch and marvel at players like Burgoyne, Birchell, Gibson and Hodge. Smart players who seem to be able to assess a number of options within a couple of seconds and give to to the best one. Be it a kick or a handball. 

We have too many defenders who refuse to give a creative and releasing handball to a player in a better position, simply because they don't have the same composure/awareness.

Clayton Oliver is someone who clearly possesses spatial awareness and composure. Watch him gather the ball in heavily congested areas with huge pressure and he'll nearly always give off to someone in the most advantageous position for us at that contest. Mitchell is the king of it and is amazing to watch.

There are times where these players will also just bang the ball on the boot. But as a back-line collective, the more composure defenders possess, the less likely you'll see rushed and thoughtless play.

Yep, good post, Steve. The way I see it Oliver is a Mitchell clone with the ability to make the right decision under extreme heat. But I actually think Wagner has great poise and decision making for a first year player and will only improve. Jetta is decent in this area as well. It's our talls in the McDonald's and Frost that lack it. The worrying thing for me is that Tom McDonald doesn't so much lack composure but is just a very poor decision maker under pressure. This kills us and he mist improve in this area.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,959]

1 minute ago, AdamPleb said:

Yep, good post, Steve. The way I see it Oliver is a Mitchell clone with the ability to make the right decision under extreme heat. But I actually think Wagner has great poise and decision making for a first year player and will only improve. Jetta is decent in this area as well. It's our talls in the McDonald's and Frost that lack it. The worrying thing for me is that Tom McDonald doesn't so much lack composure but is just a very poor decision maker under pressure. This kills us and he mist improve in this area.

Im not so sure oliver is that great with his decision making yet. He seems to make decisions before he has the ball. He gets the ball and you see him hold it out looking for a handball when its just not on, He as an innate ability to not get caught but it's not great that he decides what he is going to do then forces the outcome, want to see him a little more natural with his decision making, take the options he is given not try to create options if they arn't there. That said I think that flow will come and he will be a gun user in a few years time, hoping it is just a few first year nerves 

100% on everything else, Wagner seems to be copping some for his decisions but I have been loving his ball use out of the backline. Yeah he makes the occasional mistake but he looks a smooth mover and Hunt is a bullet. I like the combination going forward. Add a Salem coming in as a loose sweeper kind of role and we have some real young promise coming out of the HBL.

[Chris 2,892]

45 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Im not so sure oliver is that great with his decision making yet. He seems to make decisions before he has the ball. He gets the ball and you see him hold it out looking for a handball when its just not on, He as an innate ability to not get caught but it's not great that he decides what he is going to do then forces the outcome, want to see him a little more natural with his decision making, take the options he is given not try to create options if they arn't there. That said I think that flow will come and he will be a gun user in a few years time, hoping it is just a few first year nerves 

100% on everything else, Wagner seems to be copping some for his decisions but I have been loving his ball use out of the backline. Yeah he makes the occasional mistake but he looks a smooth mover and Hunt is a bullet. I like the combination going forward. Add a Salem coming in as a loose sweeper kind of role and we have some real young promise coming out of the HBL.

Your read on Oliver is different to mine. Yes he goes for the handball a lot but I don't see that as him making up his mind before he has the ball, it is just that when he gets the ball is usually under pressure. He gets the ball, gets the arms free as first priority, and then tries to find the option. Sometimes this doesn't work out as there is no option but a lot of the time he gets the hands off to the right person. 

There aren't many players I have watched who regularly give the ball of to people who may be third in line when they are actually the right option. Most footballers go to the easiest option or the closest option. Oliver regularly will hand pass past or over team mates to get to the player who is actually int eh best spot. Doing that is not that common, especially in your first 10 games!

What Oliver does need to work on is that many of his hand balls are 'loopy'. This is great in some places as it builds in a margin of error and allows the team mate to run onto the ball, there are times it is too slow though and the quicker more direct hand pass would be better. He has put people under pressure due to this but improvement will come and he certainly isn't the only one of our players guilty of putting team mates under pressure. 

The other thing he could do is work on changing his thinking when he is more open, he always looks to go with his hands, he needs to look to kick the ball more when he is more open. 

[ArtificialWisdom 3,959]

2 minutes ago, Chris said:

Your read on Oliver is different to mine. Yes he goes for the handball a lot but I don't see that as him making up his mind before he has the ball, it is just that when he gets the ball is usually under pressure. He gets the ball, gets the arms free as first priority, and then tries to find the option. Sometimes this doesn't work out as there is no option but a lot of the time he gets the hands off to the right person. 

There aren't many players I have watched who regularly give the ball of to people who may be third in line when they are actually the right option. Most footballers go to the easiest option or the closest option. Oliver regularly will hand pass past or over team mates to get to the player who is actually int eh best spot. Doing that is not that common, especially in your first 10 games!

What Oliver does need to work on is that many of his hand balls are 'loopy'. This is great in some places as it builds in a margin of error and allows the team mate to run onto the ball, there are times it is too slow though and the quicker more direct hand pass would be better. He has put people under pressure due to this but improvement will come and he certainly isn't the only one of our players guilty of putting team mates under pressure. 

The other thing he could do is work on changing his thinking when he is more open, he always looks to go with his hands, he needs to look to kick the ball more when he is more open. 

That outlet handball is incredible i love how he can do that in traffic incredible skill. Love everything he brings but that skill is invaluable. I think your last point is where im coming from. He can be 6-7m in open space and still looking for a handball, in that space the kick should be on. Thats were i say it almost looks like he has decided "im going to hand this off" and then waits to find the handball rather than going "I'm in space who can i kick it to further up the ground". 

[Chris 2,892]

48 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

That outlet handball is incredible i love how he can do that in traffic incredible skill. Love everything he brings but that skill is invaluable. I think your last point is where im coming from. He can be 6-7m in open space and still looking for a handball, in that space the kick should be on. Thats were i say it almost looks like he has decided "im going to hand this off" and then waits to find the handball rather than going "I'm in space who can i kick it to further up the ground". 

That may well just be a case that he has found where he is comfortable on an AFL ground, and that place is dishing of handballs to the best option. Hopefully as his confidence in himself and his ability grows that 'comfortable place' on the ground will evolve to include looking at the longer options. I have no doubt it will come in time. 

[RalphiusMaximus 6,000]

A lot of the better teams do use the grubber kick in this scenario.  They belt a low hard chaos ball downfield and back their teammates to win the ball.  In many ways it is a better move than a high ball that can be marked.  I wouldn't like to see us doing it quite yet because many of our players have poor hands and wouldn't be able to take the ball cleanly, but in a few years if we see some improvement in that area it would be a very good tactic. 

[Jumping Jack Clennett 1,660]

Thanks for bringing the thread back to topic with you thoughtful comment,Ralphius.

[beelzebub 22,714]

13 hours ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

A lot of the better teams do use the grubber kick in this scenario.  They belt a low hard chaos ball downfield and back their teammates to win the ball.  In many ways it is a better move than a high ball that can be marked.  I wouldn't like to see us doing it quite yet because many of our players have poor hands and wouldn't be able to take the ball cleanly, but in a few years if we see some improvement in that area it would be a very good tactic. 

its the kick-ball version of a mobile scrum. 

hey...whatever works 

[Older demon 2,319]

I did try and start a new post but obviously didn't do it correctly but this heading is close to my point. 

I noticed early in the year the Hawthorn appeared to be under instruction to kick the ball off the ground to clear a pack. At the half way mark they are still doing it and often one of their players will run forward of the ball and guess what the ball pops out and they run on to it. Against us in the wet I thought they were lucky and Mitchell kicked a wild one which went to Breust who goaled. Well he did it again yesterday against Gold Coast and it is a trend that they kick off the ground or even punch the ball forward for their swarm to run onto it. I am surprised that no one else appears to have cottoned on and still, us included, try to handball our way out of heavy traffic. Do the Hawks train for this? I don't know. Is it another Clarkson innovation? Maybe. They certainly don't bomb the ball into the forward line like we do and the Kangas did last week in Adelaide. The only time it didn't work for Mitchell, who does it, most was when he kicked in danger against Ablett. Has our football dept noticed? Any thoughts???

[Return to Glory 7,846]

On ‎27‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 11:18 AM, AdamPleb said:

Yep, good post, Steve. The way I see it Oliver is a Mitchell clone with the ability to make the right decision under extreme heat. But I actually think Wagner has great poise and decision making for a first year player and will only improve. Jetta is decent in this area as well. It's our talls in the McDonald's and Frost that lack it. The worrying thing for me is that Tom McDonald doesn't so much lack composure but is just a very poor decision maker under pressure. This kills us and he mist improve in this area.

What's the difference? One's the definition of the other.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,000]

29 minutes ago, Older demon said:

I did try and start a new post but obviously didn't do it correctly but this heading is close to my point. 

I noticed early in the year the Hawthorn appeared to be under instruction to kick the ball off the ground to clear a pack. At the half way mark they are still doing it and often one of their players will run forward of the ball and guess what the ball pops out and they run on to it. Against us in the wet I thought they were lucky and Mitchell kicked a wild one which went to Breust who goaled. Well he did it again yesterday against Gold Coast and it is a trend that they kick off the ground or even punch the ball forward for their swarm to run onto it. I am surprised that no one else appears to have cottoned on and still, us included, try to handball our way out of heavy traffic. Do the Hawks train for this? I don't know. Is it another Clarkson innovation? Maybe. They certainly don't bomb the ball into the forward line like we do and the Kangas did last week in Adelaide. The only time it didn't work for Mitchell, who does it, most was when he kicked in danger against Ablett. Has our football dept noticed? Any thoughts???

It drives me up the wall when I see one of our players try to pick up the loose ball when they know they are about to be tackled.  It is so easy to just tap or kick the ball on to a teammate, or even to the open space ahead, but instead they will try to pick it up and get tackled every time. 

[Binmans PA 26,685]

59 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

What's the difference? One's the definition of the other.

Yep, pretty much. Brainfade on my behalf.

Edited June 28, 2016 by AdamPleb
Another brainfade. :P

[Return to Glory 7,846]

2 minutes ago, AdamPleb said:

Yep, pretty. Brainfade on my behalf.

No worries. Don't call me pretty

[Binmans PA 26,685]

10 minutes ago, Return to Glory said:

No worries. Don't call me pretty

Sorry, Leslie.

Edited June 28, 2016 by AdamPleb

[sue 8,596]

35 minutes ago, RalphiusMaximus said:

It drives me up the wall when I see one of our players try to pick up the loose ball when they know they are about to be tackled.  It is so easy to just tap or kick the ball on to a teammate, or even to the open space ahead, but instead they will try to pick it up and get tackled every time. 

I agree I'd prefer that to the stoppage which results from picking it up.  But it's not just confined to MFC players. I assume coaches instruct them to pick it up and generate a stoppage which the coach thinks the team has a better chance of controlling than a random kick of the ground.  Looking at a kick forward off the ground, if that goes to the opposition it can leave everyone out of position with the ball sailing over the pack of players. If it goes to your own team they have to turn around to go forward and are thus more easily tackled.  I'm not saying which is the right thing, but if coaches think so who am I to argue.

[ArtificialWisdom 3,959]

3 minutes ago, sue said:

I agree I'd prefer that to the stoppage which results from picking it up.  But it's not just confined to MFC players. I assume coaches instruct them to pick it up and generate a stoppage which the coach thinks the team has a better chance of controlling than a random kick of the ground.  Looking at a kick forward off the ground, if that goes to the opposition it can leave everyone out of position with the ball sailing over the pack of players. If it goes to your own team they have to turn around to go forward and are thus more easily tackled.  I'm not saying which is the right thing, but if coaches think so who am I to argue.

When you have Maxy Gawn and the contested midfield we are building why would not want a stoppage? Our plan is just to win as many clearances as possible. Do that and we win more games than we lose. Nothing complicated about Roos-ball.

[jackaub 1,402]

15 hours ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

When you have Maxy Gawn and the contested midfield we are building why would not want a stoppage? Our plan is just to win as many clearances as possible. Do that and we win more games than we lose. Nothing complicated about Roos-ball.

Max Gawn not only wins the tap I have lost count of the number of times he cleared his own ball this year

He is a great clearance player and uses short kicks and taps to advantage extremely well

He also tackles like a maniac in close. Our other clearance players should watch and learn from Max  he can be very damaging and without stats i think he would rate highly for clearances