Brexit

[radar 1,865]

People have spoken. 

Sick of the whole ABC equivalent, loony left, PC industry telling them what to say, think and do. 

Greens, Fairfax - take note. 

[hardtack 10,537]

And now apparently the people are wishing that maybe they hadn't spoken. And by the way, it has bugger all to do with the left and the ABC telling anyone what to do...funnily enough, it was a conservative politician (Cameron) who was the biggest proponent of the Stay vote.

Edited June 25, 2016 by hardtack

[Grapeviney 9,720]

21 hours ago, radar said:

People have spoken. 

Sick of the whole ABC equivalent, loony left, PC industry telling them what to say, think and do. 

 

 

Yeh, thank god the right / conservatives don't engage in that kind of propaganda.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

21 hours ago, hardtack said:

And now apparently the people are wishing that maybe they hadn't spoken. And by the way, it has bugger all to do with the left and the ABC telling anyone what to do...funnily enough, it was a conservative politician (Cameron) who was the biggest proponent of the Stay vote.

It has everything to do with the left. The EU is about large Goverment which is text book left wing politics. The people voted against it.

 

[Wrecker45 3,378]

2 hours ago, Grapeviney said:

 

Yeh, thank god the right / conservatives don't engage in that kind of propaganda.

Difference is the tax payer is paying for the ABC's propaganda.

[bing181 9,236]

4 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

It has everything to do with the left. The EU is about large Goverment which is text book left wing politics. The people voted against it.

 

You've shown your ignorance on Climate Change, now your ignorance on the EU and Europe comes to the fore. The majority of the European Council and the European Parliament, the two bodies that pass laws, are right to centre right, and have been for many years.

There is not a single economic body in the world who has predicted a net benefit in this for the UK. Not one. The outcome is a catastrophe and a tragedy that all of us will be living with for many years. The Leave campaign has no plan for the future, just the hollow rhetoric of a call to a mythic bygone age of tea and crumpets and giving a jolly good whipping to the Luftwaffe. It's about intolerance, bigotry and xenophobia, that at the end of the day, apart from taking the country backwards economically, will change almost nothing except for the power balance within the Tory Party.

The UK will still want free access to the EU market for their goods and services, but the price to pay for that will be firstly that they'll have to accept free movement of EU nationals, a point already acknowledged by leaders of the Leave campaign (after the vote that is ...). Secondly, they'll also have to contribute to the EU budget. Norway, which is often cited as a model, contributes around half what the UK currently does on a per-head basis to the EU. So in other words, on two of the key questions, the UK will still be paying substantial amounts to the EU, and will still have to accept the rights of EU nationals to live and work in the UK - but with none of the benefits of full membership, nor anything in return. Economically deprived areas of the UK such as Cornwall are now running scared, as they well might. They receive 60 million pounds a year from the EU, where's that going to come from now, especially in an economy heading for a recession?

Anyone who thinks this is a positive is just being sucked into the narrative while blindly ignoring the reality and the facts. Unfortunately, that narrative is not going to put food on the table of the people who need it most, many of whom were equally sucked into voting out because they don't want to share their public swimming pools with Romanians ... who are still going to be there anyway.

Edited June 26, 2016 by bing181

[hardtack 10,537]

4 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Difference is the tax payer is paying for the ABC's propaganda.

Yeah, and of course the referendum cost the tax payer nothing and the result is going to cost the tax payer nothing, not to mention the economy in general.  And besides that, Grapeviney was responding to Radar's comment re the ABC and looney left telling people what to think and say...but that will never stop you from clutching at straws.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

35 minutes ago, bing181 said:

You've shown your ignorance on Climate Change, now your ignorance on the EU and Europe comes to the fore. The majority of the European Council and the European Parliament, the two bodies that pass laws, are right to centre right, and have been for many years.

There is not a single economic body in the world who has predicted a net benefit in this for the UK. Not one. The outcome is a catastrophe and a tragedy that all of us will be living with for many years. The Leave campaign has no plan for the future, just the hollow rhetoric of a call to a mythic bygone age of tea and crumpets and giving a jolly good whipping to the Luftwaffe. It's about intolerance, bigotry and xenophobia, that at the end of the day, apart from taking the country backwards economically, will change almost nothing except for the power balance within the Tory Party.

The UK will still want free access to the EU market for their goods and services, but the price to pay for that will be firstly that they'll have to accept free movement of EU nationals as well, a point already acknowledged by leaders of the Leave campaign (after the vote that is ...). Secondly, they'll also have to contribute to the EU budget. Norway, which is often cited as a model, contributes around half what the UK currently does on a per-head basis to the EU. So in other words, on two of the key questions, the UK will still be paying substantial amounts to the EU, and will still have to accept the rights of EU nationals to live and work in the UK - but with none of the benefits of full membership, nor anything in return. Economically deprived areas of the UK such as Cornwall are now running scared, as they well might. They receive 60 million pounds a year from the EU, where's that going to come from now, especially in an economy heading for a recession?

Anyone who thinks this is a positive is just being sucked into the narrative while blindly ignoring the reality and the facts. Unfortunately, that narrative is not going to put food on the table of the people who need it most, many of whom were equally sucked into voting out because they don't want to share their public swimming pools with Romanians ... who are still going to be there anyway.

Hold your breath and think about ignorance for a second. Are you arguing that left wing politics support smaller Governmet? 

I have correctly stated that the EU is about big Government and that is a left wing thing. Nothing else. You can argue with yourself about the pros and cons of the Brexit if you want but when you do it is ironic to call me ignorant.

 

[Earl Hood 6,086]

4 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

It has everything to do with the left. The EU is about large Goverment which is text book left wing politics. The people voted against it.

 

Yes they did vote for it. but what are the consequences? And it has jack shyte to do with the left, this Brexit poll came from the conservative right of Cameron, he, called it and I suspect England will wear the negative consequences. The United Kingdom is about to become very un United as I see it. Scotland will be off some time soon as they voted 62% for EU. And so did the young vote stay versus the older voters who said Go. This is a recepie for state failure, accentuating the divisions between generations, income, regions and ethnic origins. 

[bing181 9,236]

This about sums up the stupidity of it all: It's from a region in Wales who voted 60% leave "to keep the migrants out", even though .. er ... they don't have any migrants.

"“What’s the EU ever done for us?” Zak Kelly, 21, asks me this standing next to a brand new complex of buildings and facilities that wouldn’t look out of place in Canary Wharf. It’s not Canary Wharf, though, it’s Ebbw Vale, a former steel town of 18,000 people in the heart of the Welsh valleys, where 62% of the population – the highest proportion in Wales – voted Leave.

To go there – along a new dual carriageway – and stand next to the town’s new sixth form and training college, a glass and steel architectural showpiece next to its new leisure centre, a few hundred yards away from a new train station, is to stare into the abyss of the UK’s failed Remain campaign.

We’re standing on the site of the old steelworks, a toxic industrial wasteland left rotting when the plant, once the biggest in Europe, finally closed in 2002. It’s now “The Works” – a flagship £350m regeneration project funded by the EU redevelopment fund and home to the £33.5m Coleg Gwent, where some of the 29,000 Welsh apprenticeships the European Social Fund pays for help young people learn a trade. Add in a new £30m railway line and £80m improvement to the Heads of the Valley road from other pots of EU money, and the town centre has just received £12.2m for various upgrades and improvements."

So now, future funding comes back to the UK, or in other words, a Conservative Government, dominated by old Etonians and Right-Wing Tories:

"Even Kelly looks like he could be doubtful on this point. “David Cameron got a good kicking,” he says. So, what about Boris Johnson? Do you want him? “No way. He’s London through and through. He’ll just forget about Wales.”

Or as Michael Sheen, the Welsh-born actor from Port Talbot, tweeted: “Wales votes to trust a new and more rightwing Tory leadership to invest as much money into its poorer areas as EU has been doing.”"

 

[Trisul 664]

If it will 'change almost nothing' then how can the outcome be 'a catastrophe'?

[bing181 9,236]

17 minutes ago, Wrecker45 said:

I have correctly stated that the EU is about big Government and that is a left wing thing.

You can "correctly state" all you want, but it's nothing more than a claim and an assumption on your part. It's a classic straw man argument, as is anything that flows from it.

[bing181 9,236]

3 minutes ago, Trisul said:

If it will 'change almost nothing' then how can the outcome be 'a catastrophe'?

er ... Brexit.

Little/nothing will change in the UK itself in regards to the key Brexit claims on border controls, migration and sovereignty, as key Brexit figures are starting to acknowledge. Even the "350 million pounds a week for the NHS" has become "er, well, perhaps we shouldn't have said that". And today Nicola Sturgeon has said that Scottish MP's will not support any exit legislation, given that the country voted against it.

Chaos. No-one thought this through. UKIP can make up all the easter-bunny stories they want, because they have no presence or responsibility in the UK parliament, and Boris never thought it would get up, he was just using this to boost his profile enough to give him a run at being PM.

[nutbean 8,838]

13 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Hold your breath and think about ignorance for a second. Are you arguing that left wing politics support smaller Governmet? 

I have correctly stated that the EU is about big Government and that is a left wing thing.

 

Shouldn't the argument be about good government or bad government rather than big vs small ? Whilst size indeed brings a debate about financial cost and efficiency's there have been good and bad government large and small. To me, too many get caught up in this secondary argument. In this coming election my voting will be decided by policy, not how many people it will take to implement it. 

[hardtack 10,537]

Brexit was so successful it seems, now they have rush released Brexit 2 - Iced by Iceland. Hilarious!

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

I feel like this is an example of how democracy just isn't working like it should. As in the US with Trump, people will vote against their best interests if sufficiently frightened.

Uncertain economic times breed fear, and who better to blame than immigrants?

Democracy feels like it's broken right now. Whether it's political manipulation of the media, or indeed media-owned manipulation of politics, or micro parties wielding unlikely amounts of power, it just doesn't feel like it's working as intended.

[Earl Hood 6,086]

And that is it for UK and Eurovision as well. Did voters think this one through? 

[Wrecker45 3,378]

On 6/26/2016 at 9:20 PM, bing181 said:

You can "correctly state" all you want, but it's nothing more than a claim and an assumption on your part. It's a classic straw man argument, as is anything that flows from it.

You obviously don't have much of a political understanding. When I correctly stated the political Left advocates bigger Government, it is stating a fact. It is not even an argument let alone a "straw mans argument".

[Wrecker45 3,378]

On 6/27/2016 at 10:56 AM, nutbean said:

Shouldn't the argument be about good government or bad government rather than big vs small ? Whilst size indeed brings a debate about financial cost and efficiency's there have been good and bad government large and small. To me, too many get caught up in this secondary argument. In this coming election my voting will be decided by policy, not how many people it will take to implement it. 

Good post nutbean. I was saying support for bigger Government is a left wing thing and it clearly is. There obviously needs to be a balance. The further left you go the more tax you support, accompanied by larger Government and State control. The further right you go, the closer you get to pure free markets and ugly nationalism.

In regards to good Government v Bad. I would much prefer a good Government of the opposite persuasion to mine than a bad one from my political persuasion. The closer to the centre the major parties are the more likely you get a good result.

In the coming election I would love to vote for Labor because I don't like Malcolm Turnbull but I can't because of Shorten's policies and campaigning. I won't hijack this thread because I will write about it in the election thread.

[Wrecker45 3,378]

4 hours ago, Choke said:

I feel like this is an example of how democracy just isn't working like it should. As in the US with Trump, people will vote against their best interests if sufficiently frightened.

Uncertain economic times breed fear, and who better to blame than immigrants?

Democracy feels like it's broken right now. Whether it's political manipulation of the media, or indeed media-owned manipulation of politics, or micro parties wielding unlikely amounts of power, it just doesn't feel like it's working as intended.

Choke - I really rate your opinion and appreciate your courtesy when we disagree (which is always). We are polar opposites politically.

It seems you don't like democracy when the vote doesn't go your way.

To say it is political manipulation of the media is a stretch. Both with Brexit and Trump the media class were/is clearly in favour of Remain and Hilirary respectively.

There was a massive fear campaign about leaving the EU and a massive fear campaign (probably rightly) about the unhinged Trump becoming President. But the people are rebelling against political correctness and the political class. It is the people who booed Adam Goodes and in their heart believed it was because of his behaviours but were told by the the political class and media they were racist. They are rebelling against political correctness all over the Western world.

 

 

 

 

[nutbean 8,838]

15 hours ago, Choke said:

I feel like this is an example of how democracy just isn't working like it should. As in the US with Trump, people will vote against their best interests if sufficiently frightened.

 

This makes me feel quite ill. Voting for Trump is not even restricted to the frightened. I have been reading of recent that a significant number of voters will vote Trump because they are so sick of "politicians". The suggestion is that he speaks his mind rather than political speak. ( he does speak his mind - how that doesn't frighten people amazes me).

Whilst accurate, I think you are also being kind in suggesting  some will vote for Trump "against their best interests". I am a live and let live person and if someone has different political leanings than myself then that's fine. I do however draw the line on Trump ( and Pauline Hanson). I judge the intelligence on anyone who can support Trump harshly.  These people have no idea on best interests.

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

10 hours ago, Wrecker45 said:

Choke - I really rate your opinion and appreciate your courtesy when we disagree (which is always). We are polar opposites politically.

It seems you don't like democracy when the vote doesn't go your way.

To say it is political manipulation of the media is a stretch. Both with Brexit and Trump the media class were/is clearly in favour of Remain and Hilirary respectively.

There was a massive fear campaign about leaving the EU and a massive fear campaign (probably rightly) about the unhinged Trump becoming President. But the people are rebelling against political correctness and the political class. It is the people who booed Adam Goodes and in their heart believed it was because of his behaviours but were told by the the political class and media they were racist. They are rebelling against political correctness all over the Western world.

 

 

Thanks Wrecker. In this case, yes it didn't go the way I would have liked, however it's not the only example of how I feel democracy isn't working as it should.

I probably wasn't clear enough on my media point. I was in London last month (before the vote) and all I heard in the media was negative commentary on immigration. It was constant, and it was clear that it was influencing voters when I discussed it with British colleagues. Similar to what happened here with the Tampa, although again I'd say you'd disagree.

The media love a bloodbath. It sells papers and subscriptions or whatever. When I say 'manipulation', I mean that their actions (what they cover and the manner in which they cover it) has a significant effect on voters. The media's role in educating the public on important issues is compromised by their imperative to run a business. And with the size that these conglomerates have reached, their power to influence voters (consciously or not) has reached a level that I think is actually hampering our political system.

And often it is conscious. I know you won't like this example, but it's pretty clear how the Murdoch run media outlets blatantly barrack for one side. I was disappoined to see that The Age (Fairfax I think) also fell into this trap at the last election, openly publishing stories on how the public should vote. As I've been overseas recently I can't say if they've done so again this time around, although it wouldn't surprise me.

The vote did 'go my way' when Rudd was elected. It was the first (and so far only) time I have voted for that party. The years following his election were the first time I felt the political system wasn't working properly, especially after the minor parties holding such power during the Gillard years. Political disenfranchisement breeds protest votes, which further dilutes the major parties' ability to do things when those votes go to protest parties with no experience and no proper policies. I think Turnbull actually made that point last week, and it's a good one.

I feel like democracy as a political system, despite being the best model we currently have, could be working much much better. But to do so we need 2 things:

1 - Better education of voters on issues, and how issues will effect them *

2 - Better regulation of media coverage on those issues.

I have no idea how to achieve either of those, but those 2 I think are the big impediments to getting our political system working properly.

* I'm a financial adviser and you would be staggered if I told you how many people don't understand the implications of the last federal budget. They are all voters, and they have no idea what's going on. They vote for the party they have all their lives, with no mind to how that party's actual policies effect them. I find this is true of clients on both sides of the political divide. You should see the look on the faces on some of the Labor voters when I explain Shorten's super tax plan is mathematically similar to Turnbull's. They think it goes further, and it does, just nowhere near the extent to which they think. Then you explain the issues with Industry super funds to them and their jaw drops. They've been on a side of politics all their lives that has lead them to believe one thing, when in fact another is true.

TL:DR; People are idiots and will vote against their best interests if the media tells them a scary story to sell more papers.

[nutbean 8,838]

19 minutes ago, Choke said:

 

TL:DR; People are idiots and will vote against their best interests if the media tells them a scary story to sell more papers.

Semi spot on. Whilst I will not downplay the media's part, this goes hand in hand with "people will vote against their best interest if a politician or political party tells you a scary story ( and of course the media reports it)".

I had someone at a party come up to me and say she really liked Paul Hanson because she was just saying "what everyone was thinking". Lacking completely self control I asked her if Pauline Hanson was saying that "you are a complete moron". Harsh but fair.

 

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

54 minutes ago, nutbean said:

Semi spot on. Whilst I will not downplay the media's part, this goes hand in hand with "people will vote against their best interest if a politician or political party tells you a scary story ( and of course the media reports it)".

I had someone at a party come up to me and say she really liked Paul Hanson because she was just saying "what everyone was thinking". Lacking completely self control I asked her if Pauline Hanson was saying that "you are a complete moron". Harsh but fair.

 

Also true, the politics of fear is strong with both parties.

The last time I felt positive about politics was when Rudd got in. I fell completely for the "Howard lite" routine. The positive feeling didn't last long!

It still staggers me that Pauline Hanson got so much traction, but it's a good example of how the system can be exploited if you can tap into the mob's misdirected anger and fear.

[daisycutter 29,616]

On 28/06/2016 at 10:24 AM, hardtack said:

Brexit was so successful it seems, now they have rush released Brexit 2 - Iced by Iceland. Hilarious!

they did whitewash the aussies in the rugger though, hardtack