WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT JACK

[Earl Hood 6,099]

9 hours ago, Watts Jurrah Dunn? said:

Last pre-season would have just been about re-building him and getting back, this one can be about building a bit of strength and power.  

I don't think he's ever going to be that long-striding, smooth-moving wingman we saw in 2010, but he's earned the right at another year on the list.

He's an extremely popular clubman and when we get to a point where a bloke who finds it 20 times, makes good decisions, and is a neat disposer, is 25th-30th on our list then we'll be in good shape.

If his foot issues are resolved why has his speed diminished from 2010? You don't lose leg speed at 25 years of age normally. 

[Fork 'em 6,990]

He's never been quick.

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Fork 'em

[wretched.sylph 164]

1 hour ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Have I missed something or has he only played three games (two in heavy rain) since coming back from being out for two years? I sometimes think posters on here enjoy seeing our players fail. 

 

sometimes?

lol. I would love to see your Ignore list.

[Demonated 252]

I'm a big believer that he needs more time and it's great to see him back but He is really going to struggle at some aspects of the game. He was never quick we all know that, but he wasn't this slow. The injury undoubtedly caused this but I've never heard of an athlete in any code regaining explosive power after a 4? year dip. He gets done for pace by slower players too, McVeigh easily lead him in a foot race on Sunday.

Bartel as someone brought up was also slow, but quick enough to keep up with the average player, which I don't think Trengove can do anymore. Add to that Jack can barely kick 50 metres while Bartel could clear the goal line from 55m out and I'm not sure what sort of matchup Jack can take advantage of anymore. I wish him all the best but I personally don't see him being best 22 in the side we hope to become. He deserves at least 1/2 more years though, the bloke has earned it.

[Uncle Fester 2,848]

Stat heads are welcome to fact check and shoot me down on this but I seem to remember games under Neeld where we might only have one twenty + possession player... and these seemed to be the norm rather than the exception. Trenners tackles, does 1%ers, get the ball often and uses it well.

I'm not sure what else needs to be said about him

 

[beelzebub 23,382]

10 hours ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

I'd offer him two years at the end of this year- he's done everything asked of him and if we don't offer it, someone else will.

He's rebuilt his body, consistently dominated vfl level after two years out, does the 1 percenters, tackles fiercely.

He's best 22 imho.  At worst, he's our best depth midfielder.

Certainly deserves to be judged properly after a decent preseason. If they have shown enough faith in him to get him to this point they are hardly going to chuck him out with the bath water !!

[Chook 15,022]

I was wondering how long it would be until it was ok to start blaming Jack Trengove for losses again…..

[daisycutter 29,703]

4 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Have I missed something or has he only played three games (two in heavy rain) since coming back from being out for two years? I sometimes think posters on here enjoy seeing our players fail. 

yep, a bit of "premature evaluation" going on here. i'm happy to wait till season end

[Uncle Fester 2,848]

25 minutes ago, Chook said:

I was wondering how long it would be until it was ok to start blaming Jack Trengove for losses again…..

It's in the rules. Ya gotta blame a Jack. Grimes isn't playing so we can't blame him. Watts is looking the goods so we can't... OK. Some do but it's getting old. And Viney... heh... well I'd like to see the fella brave enough to do that. Trenners it is then.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

I'm not sure what others are seeing in Trenners that looks so bad, i've felt he's been solid without being fantastic, but definitely building back into it and certainly doing enough to hold his spot, need to remember he's missed two years, it was never going to happen right away, but i'm seeing enough to think he can contribute.

[Diamond_Jim 12,624]

Last week there was a time to drop "Jack" theme... now this

Let's not eat our own please...... it tires me (and no I am certainly not a rose coloured glasses supporter)

Happy to discuss where he or anyone fits in the long term game plan but it is not like he is is keeping an ace youngster out of the side.

Six games at least and then let's have a chat about it

[Watts the matter 1,235]

1 hour ago, Abe said:

I'm not sure what others are seeing in Trenners that looks so bad, i've felt he's been solid without being fantastic, but definitely building back into it and certainly doing enough to hold his spot, need to remember he's missed two years, it was never going to happen right away, but i'm seeing enough to think he can contribute.

Disclaimer: I hope I am wrong (unfortunately, I don't think I will be)

I can only speak for myself, but I'm looking at his attributes and can't see enough for him to succeed in a successful team. His speed, power, agility and kicking penetration are all below average. He has no tricks to get out of stoppages. With his kicking he is picking options that are good but just can't get the ball to go far enough. Even his pass to Watts two weeks ago that Watts marked should have had another 5 meters on it. His possessions for the most part are not impacting games and he is not a good kick on the run. He will give a solid effort every week, but we need more than that from our midfielders and he will be exposed in any other position. My opinion has not changed since watching his first VFL game this year and unless he is going to get Armitages sprint coach, I don't see it working out.

He is still getting high tackles numbers but this is something that drove me nuts in Neelds era, he gets this partly due to being second to the ball and being too defensive.

I do agree that he is probably ahead of others in the team on form (not for team structure however).

[Je Roos Salem 661]

I've been fairly happy with his return, shouldn't be dropped anytime soon- we don't count on him as much now in the midfield. He can be a team lifting player who can lay a good tackle or kick a goal off a flank rather than a guy to rely on for clearances. I agree with the criticism of him though, it's not just his lack of speed but he doesn't create much space either. I think there'll be a spot for him next year, definitely has too much potential not to keep for depth

[Adzman 2,154]

Slower footballers have no value. Just look at that spud Sam Mitchell...oh wait. 

 

[Adam The God 30,403]

21 hours ago, stuie said:

Yeah, we should talk about the extremely slow 24ish year old midfielder we have who's only averaging 20 touches a game...

You are talking about Tyson right?

Oh.....

 

Are you seriously comparing Jack to Dom, mate? Dom knows how to find a lot of footy at this level and is a goal kicking mid. He just needs to find consistency like Trenners, but his ceiling is a lot higher. You can only teach someone so much and Dom can be a ball magnet. Trenners' career high disposals is 29, which he managed once against the Gold Coast 2011. Dom has reached 30+ 8 times.

[Ted Lasso 19,549]

On 6/21/2016 at 1:09 AM, Watts the matter said:

Disclaimer: I hope I am wrong (unfortunately, I don't think I will be)

I can only speak for myself, but I'm looking at his attributes and can't see enough for him to succeed in a successful team. His speed, power, agility and kicking penetration are all below average. He has no tricks to get out of stoppages. With his kicking he is picking options that are good but just can't get the ball to go far enough. Even his pass to Watts two weeks ago that Watts marked should have had another 5 meters on it. His possessions for the most part are not impacting games and he is not a good kick on the run. He will give a solid effort every week, but we need more than that from our midfielders and he will be exposed in any other position. My opinion has not changed since watching his first VFL game this year and unless he is going to get Armitages sprint coach, I don't see it working out.

He is still getting high tackles numbers but this is something that drove me nuts in Neelds era, he gets this partly due to being second to the ball and being too defensive.

I do agree that he is probably ahead of others in the team on form (not for team structure however).

He's one of if not the best Aerobic athlete at the club, with the interchange cap coming in this to me says he's probably the most suited of all our midfielders to the modern game.

I personally believe all these judgments should be reserved to the end of the year and allow Jack to build some form and remind everyone how talented he is, we've seen flashes but i'm sure they'll happen more and more over time 

[Watts the matter 1,235]

2 hours ago, Adzman said:

Slower footballers have no value. Just look at that spud Sam Mitchell...oh wait. 

 

Such a poor argument. Mitchell has so many other elite attributes which make him a good player. 

[stuie 7,374]

58 minutes ago, AdamPleb said:

Are you seriously comparing Jack to Dom, mate? Dom knows how to find a lot of footy at this level and is a goal kicking mid. He just needs to find consistency like Trenners, but his ceiling is a lot higher. You can only teach someone so much and Dom can be a ball magnet. Trenners' career high disposals is 29, which he managed once against the Gold Coast 2011. Dom has reached 30+ 8 times.

Wasn't comparing them, but you could easily.

My point was everyone is banging on about our "slow midfielder who averages 20 possessions" and that's exactly what Tyson is.

If you wanted to compare their "ceiling" you could go with the facts that they are both about the same age, still young, and are both former high draft picks. One has missed nearly two years of footy though so a bit hard to judge his "ceiling" at this stage i would have thought, but going by facts you'd say it's fairly similar really.

Let's also not forget, Trengove has already captained this club, Tyson will never be in the leadership group.

 

[Lucifers Hero 40,311]

1 hour ago, AdamPleb said:

Are you seriously comparing Jack to Dom, mate? Dom knows how to find a lot of footy at this level and is a goal kicking mid. He just needs to find consistency like Trenners, but his ceiling is a lot higher. You can only teach someone so much and Dom can be a ball magnet. Trenners' career high disposals is 29, which he managed once against the Gold Coast 2011. Dom has reached 30+ 8 times.

I feel we need to put Jack's performance (be it measured in disposals, speed or whatever) in context.

• In 2011 when he had the 29 disposals he was in his second season and just 19 yo. He was not slow and showed a lot to be excited about!
• But at some time in 2012 he suffered his first foot stress fracture - I recall he didn't go to the Dec 2012 camp because he was in a moon boot?
• Had an interrupted pre-season and never fully recovered so played injured in 2013 and couldn't run (because of the foot problem).   
• 2014 and 2015 he was off injured and in rehab.
• The 2016 pre-season was hampered by lengthy times in rehab.

I would suggest he has not been fit since sometime in 2012 so he hasn't been able to perform by any measure and to compare him to another player is not comparing 'apples with apples'. 

Will he get back to his 2011 pre-injury, achievements?  We simply won't know until he has another pre-season and has a consistent stretch of games.   As someone else said, this is a conversation to be had in a year or two.

[daisycutter 29,703]

i think if usain bolt had 2 years off his legs and out of training he might take a bit of time to get up to pace. leave it till end of season before judgement

[DeeZee 7,445]

Good thing about Jack is that he is providing a consistent effort, unlike say a Kennedy who is hot one week cold the next.

[beelzebub 23,382]

Jack Trengove   last Full Preseason  2013/2014        ....  just consider that 

[rjay 25,063]

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

i think if usain bolt had 2 years off his legs and out of training he might take a bit of time to get up to pace. leave it till end of season before judgement

To back up your point, Sally Pearson recently returned from a wrist injury and is struggling to get back to her best for the Rio games...not even a leg or foot injury.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-06-10/sally-pearson-seventh-at-diamond-league/7498932

 

[Dante 2,739]

I've lost count of the number of times I've seen players from our club and other clubs running behind the ball carrier, unable to catch him.

I guess the true test will be if Trenners has the ball and his opponent can't catch him, or if he gets run down.

 

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

3 hours ago, Abe said:

He's one of if not the best Aerobic athlete at the club, with the interchange cap coming in this to me says he's probably the most suited of all our midfielders to the modern game.

I personally believe all these judgments should be reserved to the end of the year and allow Jack to build some form and remind everyone how talented he is, we've seen flashes but i'm sure they'll happen more and more over time 

So? Tmac is easily the best aerobic athlete at the club and a fair chunk of DL wants to trade him at years end! (which is another delusional idea but thats for another time). The modern game is about burst speed something that Jack doesn't have. You dont need to run 100m in a sprint very often just 20/30m. Most slow players like Tyson, Jetta, Mitchell and Bartell can put the after burners on just enough to keep up to make a contest even if they get to the ball second. My problem is that Trenners just cant, its not from a lack of effort he just isnt physically capable. 

I'm thinking of an instance in the hawthorn game first qtr. He was side but side with his man they both sprinted 20m to get to the ball after a watts skyball out of congestion and in that short run trenners was already 8 or 9m behind and unable to impact. That kind of pace is what he has lacked even before his injury which now would have diminished even further. He will likely never get back to his fastest pace which was already very slow...

His skills and Aerobic capacity are unquestioned, but if he cant find a way to get a little more burst speed he wont make it. Yes he deserves a full pre-season and yes there is a spot for him on our list next year, but I have really big doubts on if he will ever make it. He is a top bloke, a fantastic clubman, and could be one of footy's greatest stories but flags are not won on sentimentality. That all being said I also thought he wouldn't ever play again. He proved me wrong once, hopefully he can prove me wrong again.