Since everyone keeps bringing up Fyfe:

All of these best 22-25 players are good to go 
Gawn - Multiple knee recos
Hogan- Season ending back problems
CP5 - ACL at training!
Kent - Season ending hamstring
Salem - Recuring tyroid problems
Brayshaw - Catchs concussion like the rest of us catch a cold
Frost - Season ending toe injury 
Viney - Broken Fibula and Knucklebone
Hunt - Severely stunted development due to recuring back issues
Vandenberg - Recuring Ankle issues

This guy is damaged goods 
Fyfe - Broken Fibula

I stress that dont want Hogan to leave no matter the trade. But dont try and tell me that just because of his recent injury the best midfilder in the comp is not worth the risk should the option come up. I'm not even mentioning Trengrove in the above list despite many claiming that with 1 glorious pre-season he will one day return to the best 22. How some people can claim that Trenners will get back then say Fyfe is done I will never understand.

36 minutes ago, ProDee said:

I agree that he has a more rounded game, but what has that got to do with "mobility" ?

And quote where I'm "underselling" him.

What does creativity have to do with mobility? Or is it only OK to move to goal posts when you're making a point?

You are underselling him by stating Hogan has a better ground level game and handball game. 

Fyfe is a star. He was still a star when he was on one leg. I remember Templeton but I also remember Burgoyne. I'd take him in a nanosecond.

28 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Since everyone keeps bringing up Fyfe:

All of these best 22-25 players are good to go 
Gawn - Multiple knee recos
Hogan- Season ending back problems
CP5 - ACL at training!
Kent - Season ending hamstring
Salem - Recuring tyroid problems
Brayshaw - Catchs concussion like the rest of us catch a cold
Frost - Season ending toe injury 
Viney - Broken Fibula and Knucklebone
Hunt - Severely stunted development due to recuring back issues
Vandenberg - Recuring Ankle issues

This guy is damaged goods 
Fyfe - Broken Fibula

I stress that dont want Hogan to leave no matter the trade. But dont try and tell me that just because of his recent injury the best midfilder in the comp is not worth the risk should the option come up. I'm not even mentioning Trengrove in the above list despite many claiming that with 1 glorious pre-season he will one day return to the best 22. How some people can claim that Trenners will get back then say Fyfe is done I will never understand.

That list is all well and good but is essentially pointless. None of those players have had plates inserted into their fibula, only to have the bone fracture again. It's a serious injury.

When you're talking about trading two of the highest commodities in the competition, this kind of thing is a big factor. I personally wouldn't want the club to trade Hogan for an even slightly underdone Fyfe.

Edited September 22, 20168 yr by Django

Barrett-scum has done this week's 'sliding doors' nonsense and of course our 'if' is about J Hogan.

Two top 8 draft picks for Hogan and he thinks we should do it.

Is he hearing things or is he just genuinely running out of information and has to make [censored] up?

Either way I despise him. 

Edited September 22, 20168 yr by stevethemanjordan

14 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Barrett-scum has done this week's 'sliding doors' nonsense and of course our 'if' is about J Hogan.

Two top 8 draft picks for Hogan and he thinks we should do it.

Is he hearing things or is he just genuinely running out of information and has to make [censored] up?

Either way I despise him. 

Two top 5 picks at a minimum, considering the currency we gave up to acquire him, PLUS the fact he's turned into such a gun.

2 minutes ago, Django said:

That list is all well and good but is essentially pointless. None of those players have had plates inserted into their fibula, only to have the bone fracture again. It's a serious injury.

When you're talking about trading two of the highest commodities in the competition, these things are big factors. I personally wouldn't want the club to trade Hogan for an even slightly underdone Fyfe.

I agree and my point wasnt to belittle his injury and I would be astounded if he got back to his brownlow best after this (although it's not impossible) but the fact is we have many players who are classes bellow Fyfe who have gotten through just as serious of injuries Hogan being one of them. Anyone picking up Hogan is taking as big risk on him as one would be taking Fyfe. 

Some players are just worth the risk. The publicity alone that would come to the club if we got Fyfe in for Hoges. If nothing else that would get the attention of other players. If you're looking at coming back to victoria and melbourne has just traded hogan for 2 first round picks as Barrett so stupidly suggests you are looking at going elsewhere. No sense waiting another 3 years for more kids to develop. But if Fyfe has just joined on.. suddenly Melbourne as a destination becomes an viable option. A youthfull side full of tallent lead by Jones, Gawn, Viney, Vince and Fyfe. Geez that becomes a right side more attractive with that 1 name on the end. 

46 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

What does creativity have to do with mobility? Or is it only OK to move to goal posts when you're making a point?

You are underselling him by stating Hogan has a better ground level game and handball game. 

In my view Lynch is a better mark and Hogan has more mobility.  Does that mean I'm underselling Hogan's marking ability ?  Of course not, he's top 5 in the competition.  Just like me saying Hogan has a better ground level and hand-balling game doesn't mean I'm (necessarily) underselling Lynch.

Or is that too nuanced for you ?

12 minutes ago, SaberFang said:

Two top 5 picks at a minimum, considering the currency we gave up to acquire him, PLUS the fact he's turned into such a gun.

Guess one of the reasons why there are rumblings now is Freo currently have pick 3. 

Agree with you Saber. Pick 3 and Freos 2017 first rounder which would be about say 5 to 8 perhaps. Obviously Freo will need to trade back into first round. 

29 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Barrett-scum has done this week's 'sliding doors' nonsense and of course our 'if' is about J Hogan.

Two top 8 draft picks for Hogan and he thinks we should do it.

Is he hearing things or is he just genuinely running out of information and has to make [censored] up?

Either way I despise him. 

I thought what he said was fair enough, he thinks if we got offered 2 picks at the pointy end of the draft we should take it,

13 minutes ago, SaberFang said:

Two top 5 picks at a minimum, considering the currency we gave up to acquire him, PLUS the fact he's turned into such a gun.

My problem with that though is we just keep getting younger and younger. At some stage we need to actually stop being in a development stage and actually have a crack at it. To me, there's more to the context of this than just the actual value of the player, it's about where our club is at as well as the current situation of the league which increasingly is becoming a two tier system where the "smaller" clubs like us continually go to the draft, only to have those players leave once we get them to a stage where they're really ready to lift us up the ladder.

We always talk about how good we'll be when we get our players to 100 games, so let's do that rather than continually getting younger.

 

1 minute ago, Flamingdees said:

Guess one of the reasons why there are rumblings now is Freo currently have pick 3. 

Agree with you Saber. Pick 3 and Freos 2017 first rounder which would be about say 5 to 8 perhaps. Obviously Freo will need to trade back into first round. 

if it were a future pick i'd want something else as well. they don't have anywhere near as much currency, a 2017 first rounder is only worth a late first round or early second round a year early imo.

2 minutes ago, Abe said:

if it were a future pick i'd want something else as well. they don't have anywhere near as much currency, a 2017 first rounder is only worth a late first round or early second round a year early imo.

Not sure how we would get more in way of picks. Freo have already traded away this years second round.  

Might have to be a player. 

5 minutes ago, stuie said:

My problem with that though is we just keep getting younger and younger. At some stage we need to actually stop being in a development stage and actually have a crack at it. To me, there's more to the context of this than just the actual value of the player, it's about where our club is at as well as the current situation of the league which increasingly is becoming a two tier system where the "smaller" clubs like us continually go to the draft, only to have those players leave once we get them to a stage where they're really ready to lift us up the ladder.

We always talk about how good we'll be when we get our players to 100 games, so let's do that rather than continually getting younger.

 

Agree. the way the comp is going we are becoming a feeder club to the big guns.  

3 minutes ago, Flamingdees said:

Not sure how we would get more in way of picks. Freo have already traded away this years second round.  

Might have to be a player. 

that's exactly what i mean, we don't lower our standards for the sake of getting a deal done, we have something they want, if it were to come to a trade, they pay up or miss out.

11 minutes ago, stuie said:

My problem with that though is we just keep getting younger and younger. At some stage we need to actually stop being in a development stage and actually have a crack at it. To me, there's more to the context of this than just the actual value of the player, it's about where our club is at as well as the current situation of the league which increasingly is becoming a two tier system where the "smaller" clubs like us continually go to the draft, only to have those players leave once we get them to a stage where they're really ready to lift us up the ladder.

We always talk about how good we'll be when we get our players to 100 games, so let's do that rather than continually getting younger.

 

I agree. Developing 18 year olds takes a few years and if Jesse decides to go this year then that's three young players we've lost in a matter of seven or so years.  Well Frawley was 25 or so.  But continuing to replace these players with 18 year olds requires more time and patience. It's not ideal.

Feels like we take two steps forward and one step back.  Becomes a point where the club can only sell the story of where the youngest side in the comp for so long.

 

 

 

It shouldnt but it amazes me rhat anyone, let alone demon fans who watch hogan week in week out could question hogans ability and status as a potential future star of the game.

His first two season's he kicks 40 plus goals, top 10 in contested marks, averages not far off 20 possessions a game, reads the game beautifully, has a massive tank that enables him to get up and down the ground and run defenders ragged (yet some still persist in calling him a stay at home old school dinosaur), is brlliant on the ground (are people actually watching?), has great hands, crashes packs, is super competitive and is a pure footballer. And he is only 21!

I find it even more amazing that some posters who do not rate hogan as highly as i do also seem to expect that freo or wc will give up mutiple top 5 draft picks or one of their best players, or indeed a combination. I mean we are talking professional recruiting teams that pour thousands of hours into such decisions and have access to all the data they could ever need.

You cant have it both ways. If not a gun then we wont do that well in the trade. Or perhaps some posters analysis of footballers ability is better than the pros.

Edited September 23, 20168 yr by binman

10 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Agree. the way the comp is going we are becoming a feeder club to the big guns.  

The challenge then is to pry a Neal or Fyfe out of Freo. Not sure there is anyone else on their list we'd particularly want.  

Can see where your coming from...

 

19 minutes ago, DubDee said:

Agree. the way the comp is going we are becoming a feeder club to the big guns.  

Freo are hardly a big gun...and there's no evidence we are becoming a feeder club.

We haven't lost anyone we didn't want to lose over the last 3 years.

There's also no evidence Hogan is going, just speculation.

3 minutes ago, rjay said:

There's also no evidence Hogan is going, just speculation.

But when asked if he was leaving he blinked 3 times more than he normaly would. If that is not evidence I dont know what is.

32 minutes ago, ProDee said:

In my view Lynch is a better mark and Hogan has more mobility.  Does that mean I'm underselling Hogan's marking ability ?  Of course not, he's top 5 in the competition.  Just like me saying Hogan has a better ground level and hand-balling game doesn't mean I'm (necessarily) underselling Lynch.

Or is that too nuanced for you ?

You have conveniently ignored the first paragraph of my post.

While I agree with your point that by saying someone is better at something than someone else it does not necessarily mean you would be underselling them. However, as Hogan has a poor ground level game (IMO, which you obviously don't agree with), that would then mean you are underselling Lynch by saying Hogans is better. Not rocket science. 

 

1 hour ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

I agree and my point wasnt to belittle his injury and I would be astounded if he got back to his brownlow best after this (although it's not impossible) but the fact is we have many players who are classes bellow Fyfe who have gotten through just as serious of injuries Hogan being one of them. Anyone picking up Hogan is taking as big risk on him as one would be taking Fyfe. 

Some players are just worth the risk. The publicity alone that would come to the club if we got Fyfe in for Hoges. If nothing else that would get the attention of other players. If you're looking at coming back to victoria and melbourne has just traded hogan for 2 first round picks as Barrett so stupidly suggests you are looking at going elsewhere. No sense waiting another 3 years for more kids to develop. But if Fyfe has just joined on.. suddenly Melbourne as a destination becomes an viable option. A youthfull side full of tallent lead by Jones, Gawn, Viney, Vince and Fyfe. Geez that becomes a right side more attractive with that 1 name on the end. 

His recovery is such an unknown until he is seen playing - all of those guys you mentioned earlier might have bounced back from various, but I definitely don't want us to trade Hogan for an unknown. And as I said earlier, I wouldn't even want us to trade Hogan for a lesser version of the Fyfe that won the Brownlow.

Personally I'd rather see 'Jones, Gawn, Viney, Vince and Hogan'. He'll be a huge drawcard in the very near future.

7 minutes ago, Watts the matter said:

You have conveniently ignored the first paragraph of my post.

While I agree with your point that by saying someone is better at something than someone else it does not necessarily mean you would be underselling them. However, as Hogan has a poor ground level game (IMO, which you obviously don't agree with), that would then mean you are underselling Lynch by saying Hogans is better. Not rocket science. 

 

Really? I have seen him picking up the ball on the move and dishing off to team-mates in a way that is breathtaking.

Poor at ground level? No way

hogan's ground-level ball-handling is some of the best i've ever seen for a big bloke.

In all this conversation I don't see too much about what a forward line without Hogan could be - with current stocks.  Hulett, Weidermann and Watts could be really interesting as a foward troupe.  If Hogan goes around for another 12 months and Hulett and Weids can develop nicely, we could be OK.  Hogan playing as the power CHF for the next ten years will be something I would love to see.  However, we are not without options in the cupboard already - perhaps 2 pre-seasons away from being very good.