On 02/02/2016 at 11:49, Peter Griffen said:

Agreed, so far he has detailed documents about what was given, but he doesn't the players weren't given TB4, doesn't deny giving TB4 but argues that it isn't performance enhancing, just seems to be digging himself a deeper and deeper hole.

Seriously. Does he, like Gil and Vlad, think we are all stupid?

If not performance enhancing, why go through a (presumably) expensive secret program??

  On 02/02/2016 at 11:56, monoccular said:

 

Surely it should be "whoever takes it"!

Or perhaps "WTF did we take?" 

  On 02/02/2016 at 10:05, Whispering_Jack said:

The most incredible aspect of this entire Essendon  shemozzle that Dank needs to explain (and I bet he won't) is the consent forms that was given to the players.

 

Leaving aside the convenient red herring of thymomodulin (which was not on the list) which looks like a contrived afterthought desperately thrown into the ring to deflect the truth, there's the characterisation of thymosin simply as "thymosin". 

 

Jobe Watson has been quoted as saying, "I talked to Stephen about Thymosin and he said there's a bad one and a good one, yeah," and if that's true then the consent forms should surely have specified which one it was - the fact that it didn't means that, as a senior member of the playing group, Watson had to get some independent advice about exactly what he was having ingested into his system.

 

Instead, he relied solely on Dank, not the club doctor or his family doctor and not even Professor Google. Fat chance that Dank will ever get him or the players out of the mess he helped to create.

Re advice. Bet Tim was next to fkn useless

To summarise (in part because there's probably quite a few more ad-ons)

• The players claim that they don't what they were given.
• There were no records (yeah, right!)
• None of what they were given was illegal (apparently)
• Even though they don't know what the supplements were they had "cancer curing properties" (according to Thompson)
• Dank had a history of administering PED's to other athletes (according to WADA)
• The TB-4 was sourced from China (via Charter - Dr Ageless)
• The TB-4 was compounded by Avari (the South Yarra chemist)
• TB-4 was placed at the EFC
• The players signed consent forms allowing the club to give the players "Thymosin" (a fatal error of judgement as it turned out)
• The EFC gave the players TB-4 (according to the CAS verdict - comfortable satisfaction was reached)
• TB-4 is a performance enhancing drug that is banned by WADA
• The players failed to tell ASADA on multiple occasions that they were being injected with anything. (Despite seemingly believing the supplements were legal)
• The players seemingly never went to the ASADA site to check if the substances were legal.  (Despite almost certainly knowing that that site was for that purpose)
• The players claimed (publicly) they were only given "vitamins" ... nothing illegal
• The supplements were "close to the edge"
• McVeigh claims that all players knew exactly what they were given - right from the word go
• Dank claims the EFC destroyed the records (why do that?)
• Many have been led to believe and many still believe that the players are "innocent victims"

The points that I've highlighted haven't been shoved down our throats (yet the highlighted stuff seems to be the truthful stuff) ... conversely, the points that aren't highlighted have been shoved down our throats (yet it could be argued that those points may not be entirely truthful or are just flat-out lies)

Anyone might think the points that aren't highlighted were designed to confuse a footy mad public ... and it very nearly worked except they didn't count on a tenacious WADA with a "comfortable satisfaction" outcome that was always quite feasible.

The 17 listed players might end up getting paid in full but it's the 17 players who are no longer listed who the EFC should concern themselves with .. plus those other 10 players who may well have been part of the injection program who didn't sign consent forms (Hunter is already taking action whilst Zaharakis may be the only player of the whole 46 who stood apart)

 

  On 02/02/2016 at 12:00, Red and Bluebeard said:

Or perhaps "WTF did we take?" 

Please take away our sash stash

  On 02/02/2016 at 12:48, Macca said:

To summarise (in part because there's probably quite a few more ad-ons)

• The players claim that they don't what they were given.
• There were no records (yeah, right!)
• None of what they were given was illegal (apparently)
• The EFC probably destroyed the records (but that was a secret)
• Dank had a history of administering PED's to other athletes (according to WADA)
• Even though they don't know what the supplements were they have "cancer curing properties" (according to Thompson)
• The TB-4 was sourced from China (via Charter - Dr Ageless)
• The TB-4 was compounded by Avari (the South Yarra chemist)
• TB-4 was placed at the EFC
• The players signed consent forms allowing the club to give the players "Thymosin" (a fatal error of judgement as it turned out)
• The EFC gave the players TB-4 (according to the CAS verdict - comfortable satisfaction was reached)
• TB-4 is a performance enhancing drug that is banned by WADA
• The players claim they were only given "vitamins" ... nothing illegal
• The supplements were "close to the edge"
• McVeigh claims that all players knew exactly what they were given - right from the word go
• Dank claims the EFC destroyed the records (why do that?)
• Many have been led to believe and many still believe that the players are "innocent victims"

Anyone would think that the above information was designed to confuse a footy mad public ... and it very nearly worked except they didn't count on a tenacious WADA with a "comfortable satisfaction" outcome that was always quite feasible.

The 17 listed players might end up getting paid in full but it's the 17 players who are no longer listed who the EFC should concern themselves with .. plus those other 10 players who may well have been part of the injection program who didn't sign consent forms (Hunter is already taking action whilst Zaharakis may be the only player of the whole 46 who stood apart)

 

Nice list, I'd like to add.

The players failed to tell ASADA on multiple occasions that they were being injected with anything. (Despite believing that it was legal)

None of the players went to the ASADA site to check if the substances were legal.  (Despite being well aware that the site was for that purpose)

 

  On 02/02/2016 at 21:11, ManDee said:

Nice list, I'd like to add.

The players failed to tell ASADA on multiple occasions that they were being injected with anything. (Despite believing that it was legal)

 

I reckon you could delete the rest of the list and just rely on that one point.

  On 02/02/2016 at 21:30, sue said:

I reckon you could delete the rest of the list and just rely on that one point.

I also think it's the single point that turned the ambivalent supporters of the Essendon players against them. As PR, that one line killed the sympathy vote.

  On 02/02/2016 at 22:58, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I also think it's the single point that turned the ambivalent supporters of the Essendon players against them. As PR, that one line killed the sympathy vote.

My brother is a North supporter and until this came out was in the "it's been too long, just let it slide" camp. Once this information was released his position became "ban them for as long as possible".

I think a lot of supporters would have had this reaction.

  On 02/02/2016 at 21:30, sue said:

I reckon you could delete the rest of the list and just rely on that one point.

Only if it could be assumed that all those who are interested in this saga have already been educated with many of the points that have been previously talked about or noted. For those who were only mildly interested or not interested at all, the points gave a quick overview of many of the sequence of events.

There are any number of people who only know bits and pieces and there are many who really don't know much at all ... my post wasn't aimed at the people on this thread who have been all over what has happened ... the contributors to this thread have largely come from a vocal minority (with only 1 or 2 people with a dissenting view)

Sometimes it's worth repeating what may seem obvious to to those "in the know" ... it's my belief that most footy fans didn't bother to read the CAS judgement. And if they did read it, they may have had their thinking swayed (if, before reading it, they honestly believed that the players were totally innocent)

 

  On 03/02/2016 at 04:39, Macca said:

Only if it could be assumed that all those who are interested in this saga have already been educated with all that has been previously talked about or noted. For those who were only mildly interested or not interested at all, it gave a quick overview of many of the sequence of events.

There are any number of people who only know bits and pieces and there are many who really don't know much at all ... my post wasn't aimed at the people on this thread who have been all over what has transpired.

As it stands, I reckon a large percentage of people who read this site have not even opened up this thread ... the contributions to this thread have largely come from a vocal minority (with only 1 or 2 people with a dissenting view)

Sometimes it's worth repeating what may seem obvious to to those "in the know" ... it's my belief that most footy fans didn't bother to read the CAS judgement. And if they did read it, they may have had their thinking swayed (if before reading it they honestly believed that the players were totally innocent)

 

 

All true and your summary  was good.  I was just making the point that even if someone had not followed all the details, they will think the players guilty if they are just  told that the players hid from ASADA injections they supposedly thought legal.

Unfortunately , even now, a lot of people only know the very little, and then  re-imagined, propaganda that fanboys pushed out. Some good friends who keenly follow footy were quite taken aback when I filled in some areas for them. They thought initially I was espousing bullshlt, that I had some agenda etc. Strange...its not me with the agenda 

Shall be interesting to see what transpires over the next week before the deadline expires 

  On 03/02/2016 at 05:27, sue said:

 

All true and your summary  was good.  I was just making the point that even if someone had not followed all the details, they will think the players guilty if they are just  told that the players hid from ASADA injections they supposedly thought legal.

Yeah, I knew what you were saying and agree with you about the players not being forthcoming about the injections being the clincher.

I just reckon there are a stack of people who haven't followed all the details ... so, to post up a sort of timeline could be beneficial to those who weren't "in the know."

Bub's post above echoes my thoughts ... I've come across the very same scenario's - quite a bit.

Of course, the points I highlighted were observations and in same cases, facts. And it's my take on things ... there's a lot more that could have been added especially with regards to all the major players (Hird, Dean Robinson, Doc Reid et al)

 

What never ceases to amaze me is the number of Dons supporters I know (>12) who believe to a man, that their side did nothing wrong. If you have a spare 20 minutes, and you're up for a laugh, Bruce 'the Goose' Francis is posting once again (or rather, tweeting). Here's a sample:

http://twitdoc.com/view.asp?id=245888&sid=59Q8&ext=PDF&lcl=CAS-Strands-Response-BFrancis-2Feb2016.pdf&usr=TheGovernorSM&doc=297577442&key=key-3hvMidUrRs00psjuV7Ni

Ancient Tiger, a medical professional, whose posts on BF I've quoted here. addresses a number of points Francis makes:

"Bruce makes many errors.

For instance, there is no known marketed injectable form of melatonin. It is only available in oral form. Melatonan II is the alternative but doesn't help at all with sleep, which is what McVeigh said he got the injection for. It is also a banned drug as it has not been approved for human therapeutic use. So he is arguing he didn't get TB4 - he got another prohibited drug!

Thymomodulin is not available or even efficacious at doses of 2mg/ml. That is the dose for TB4.

You do not check an athletes blood for IGF-1 to check his health. You check the level to have a baseline to watch in case your peptides increase it above the allowable level. This is one way WADA/ASADA check for the administration of banned peptides.

There is no photographic evidence of thymomodulin at Essendon or in Dank's fridge as Bruce states. The photo is that of a photo of an ampoule with a amateur label on it. It could have been take in Mexico for all we know!

Mr Del Vecchio did tell Dank that the peptides he used were banned. He did this because Dank told him which peptides he used. Bruce has got this completely wrong. He still uses the outdated Interim report to make conclusions about many things which is clearly wrong.

Thymosin beta 4 was advertised back in those days as having both immune boosting properties AND tissue repair properties. Since then, the immune boosting properties have disappeared from his website and only appear on one line at peptide clinics where Alavi is involved. It is almost as if they are mopping up their mess.

......"

 

To the EFC supporters who keep going on about no positive tests...

Let me say this ...How many murder convictions would we get if there were no fingerprints found on the gun?

Good posting M9

Quite frankly Bruce is a bit of a fooll. He has lots of mates

There is indeed much about the nature and style of the protocol used by efc/Dank which just screams this substance or that. It's even at these levels that the diehard fanfoys fail to understand the logic.

bruce is just showing what a lousy lawyer he is and why he works in a university and not in a practice

  On 03/02/2016 at 06:44, rjay said:

To the EFC supporters who keep going on about no positive tests...

Let me say this ...How many murder convictions would we get if there were no fingerprints found on the gun?

or ... how many murder convictions would there be if there had to be eye witnesses?

  On 03/02/2016 at 07:00, daisycutter said:

bruce is just showing what a lousy lawyer he is and why he works in a university and not in a practice

I think you're getting Bruce the Goose confused with "the Sea Kyaker" aka Martin Hardie.

Francis was severely peed off when the Essendonians (Dons coterie of which my mate is a member) commissioned Hardie to document the saga many months ago. Francis thought he'd get the job.

Bruce is a bit of an attention seeker. Likes to think he's important, relevant...... and he's neither

  On 03/02/2016 at 07:25, M_9 said:

I think you're getting Bruce the Goose confused with "the Sea Kyaker" aka Martin Hardie.

Francis was severely peed off when the Essendonians (Dons coterie of which my mate is a member) commissioned Hardie to document the saga many months ago. Francis thought he'd get the job.

oooops, you're right, my bad. senior brain fart 

  On 03/02/2016 at 07:00, daisycutter said:

bruce is just showing what a lousy lawyer he is and why he works in a university and not in a practice

the intent for derision was there.... B for effort 

Another doozy from Bruce, imploring Susan Ley to either call an emergency meeting of the WADA executive to discuss his claims or resign from the executive herself:

http://twitdoc.com/view.asp?id=246145&sid=59XD&ext=PDF&lcl=Attention-Susan-Ley-CAS-Strands-Response-BFrancis-2Feb2016.pdf&usr=TheGovernorSM&doc=297688822&key=key-klfY6EMdzE2wgPiY6XC1

As one poster on BF said "the cheese has fallen off the cracker".

Bruce Bruce Bruce

They took the shlt. Get over yourself ffs !!

  On 03/02/2016 at 08:47, beelzebub said:

Bruce Bruce Bruce

They took the shlt. Get over yourself ffs !!

I think it's called "Flogging a Dead Horse"