song. Sadly there are folk here who regardless of what he may or may not do over the next couple of season have their minds made up that he is no good. Nothing other than perhaps a Brownlow (unlikely as it is) would change their minds.

I agree 100% that we should be supportive of all players on our list, at very least at the start of each new season.......other will think differently. Such is life.

But as I alluded to, some here like to think they know more than Roos and Goodwin.

I must admit that I haven't observed him specifically closely enough to share that observation, but certainly our half backs and mids get 'caught in the headlights' far less often on those sadly too rare occasions that our mids and forwards actually choose to run and create options. It is a team problem. One that Roos needs to address urgently before pre season 2016 starts.

Even if he won a Brownlow there would be people here saying that it must have been a very weak year as there is no way he deserved it. Roosy's veil of negativity is real.

I heard today from a reliable source that David Rodan is mentoring Jimmy.

I heard today from a reliable source that David Rodan is mentoring Jimmy.

least we know Jimmy can dance...

I heard today from a reliable source that David Rodan is mentoring Jimmy.

In what dancing style?

Damn you for ruining my joke with your lesser joke!

He's not even getting a game at MFC at present. We are currently the worst team in the league (watch the last 3 games again). Why would we keep a player like that?

If we got rid of everyone who wasn't getting a game right now, we'd be left with 22 players.

There is, believe it or not, more to list management than that.

It sounds contradictory that guy a who can't even make the emergencies in a group of about 30 (barely) fit players would be given a new contract. That said I'm on Toump's side moreso than the selectors.

The only reasoning for him not getting a game is that he doesn't really have a position, and we already have one more talented guy (Watts) who is that player.

I heard today from a reliable source that David Rodan is mentoring Jimmy.

D-rod is probably a good mentor but surely there'd be someone better out there, get Roosy to pull some strings and get Jude Bolton to teach him how to be a contested ball machine or something

If we got rid of everyone who wasn't getting a game right now, we'd be left with 22 players.

There is, believe it or not, more to list management than that.

So that tells us exactly what about our recruitment and development t_u? It sucks!

I was thinking about Toumpas and the cr*p he cops on here and then thought, what do clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong do with underperforming young players.

It seems it a lot of instances they back in their development and keep faith.

Hawks:

Alex Woodward- drafted in 2011 and had a horror run with knee injuries (still on Hawks list)

Geelong:

Daniel Menzel- drafted 2009 and again a horror run with injuries (still on the list)

West Coast:

Brad Sheppard- drafted in 2009 and has taken a long time to develop. Having his best season in 2015.

Chris Masten- drafted in 2007 and played his first decent season in 2012.

Sydney:

Large amount of swans play in the reserves for the start of their career.

Harry Cunningham: drafted 2012- just starting to show good signs.

Obviously they also have young players who play straight off the bat but it goes to show that there's no right or wrong way. If we don't back in our development with Toumpas then the club may as well fold as we will never develop a premiership side.

I was thinking about Toumpas and the cr*p he cops on here and then thought, what do clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong do with underperforming young players.

It seems it a lot of instances they back in their development and keep faith.

Hawks:

Alex Woodward- drafted in 2011 and had a horror run with knee injuries (still on Hawks list)

Geelong:

Daniel Menzel- drafted 2009 and again a horror run with injuries (still on the list)

West Coast:

Brad Sheppard- drafted in 2009 and has taken a long time to develop. Having his best season in 2015.

Chris Masten- drafted in 2007 and played his first decent season in 2012.

Sydney:

Large amount of swans play in the reserves for the start of their career.

Harry Cunningham: drafted 2012- just starting to show good signs.

Obviously they also have young players who play straight off the bat but it goes to show that there's no right or wrong way. If we don't back in our development with Toumpas then the club may as well fold as we will never develop a premiership side.

Spot on, but the list is much longer than that. How about Will Langford who played 1 games in his first 3 years. he was showing some good form for Box Hill but had limitations (like Toumpas but probably different limitations) then finally got his chance. limited player but they didn't throw him out to dry. he showed great professionalism, just like Toumpas has. We can't thorw players out because of the past. to me Toumpas has the skillsets and know how, but isn't physically ready yet.

Great post 'Dom'!

Other clubs show patience.

Renewing Jimmy's contract indicates our club can also show patience.

I think the DL cr*p heaped on Jimmy is because our AFL team has constantly lost since he arrived.

If our seniors were winning, DL would be a lot more patient with him and all new recruits.

Jimmy has had the additional burden of being a high draft pick and picked instead of a DL fave, who has been starring.

Some posters just need a 'whipping boy' and Jimmy is an easy target.

Can't wait for Jimmy to be a permanent 22.

Then I hope those DL's are gracious enough to eat humble pie!

I was thinking about Toumpas and the cr*p he cops on here and then thought, what do clubs like Hawthorn and Geelong do with underperforming young players.

It seems it a lot of instances they back in their development and keep faith.

Hawks:

Alex Woodward- drafted in 2011 and had a horror run with knee injuries (still on Hawks list)

Geelong:

Daniel Menzel- drafted 2009 and again a horror run with injuries (still on the list)

West Coast:

Brad Sheppard- drafted in 2009 and has taken a long time to develop. Having his best season in 2015.

Chris Masten- drafted in 2007 and played his first decent season in 2012.

Sydney:

Large amount of swans play in the reserves for the start of their career.

Harry Cunningham: drafted 2012- just starting to show good signs.

Obviously they also have young players who play straight off the bat but it goes to show that there's no right or wrong way. If we don't back in our development with Toumpas then the club may as well fold as we will never develop a premiership side.

4 teams with much better lists than us. They all play TEAM footy...and quite successfully. They have the LUXURY of pandering to the "waiting for " types.

We don't ,we need players that can play NOW...impact NOW

The Toumps effect on game day verges on SFA unfortunately

This isnt a bloody charity ...its football. You need to be competitve. We arent

Edited September 3, 20159 yr by beelzebub

Really? Were you at the Carlton debacle or the Bulldogs embarassment? What about St Kilda? This team has no pride, no intensity and is an utter disgrace.

Yeah, that's all hyperbole and exaggeration and that's boring - you have nothing to discuss, just everything to be disgusted at.

And Toumpas possibly getting a contract for his 4th and 5th year of his career is what we are discussing - and it isn't disgusting.

D-rod is probably a good mentor but surely there'd be someone better out there, get Roosy to pull some strings and get Jude Bolton to teach him how to be a contested ball machine or something

I suspect it is more about movement - than it is about football. Rodan is the perfect mentor for Jimmy Toumpas, I couldn't think of a better guy. I mentioned a few pages back Toumpas needing to do ballet or movement exercises. I think Rodan can help Toumpas loosen a little bit. It is a big flaw in Jimmys game, he looks too stiff, awkward, and always looked panicky.

4 teams with much better lists than us. They all play TEAM footy...and quite successfully. They have the LUXURY of pandering to the "waiting for " types.

We don't we need players that can play NOW...impact NOW

The Toumps effect on game day verges on SFA unfortunately

This isnt a bloody charity ...its football. You need to be competitve. We arent

So your argument is that we shouldn't develop our young players because we are not a good team? Hmmmm

So your argument is that we shouldn't develop our young players because we are not a good team? Hmmmm

Nice try at half understanding.

We need to draft players that are far more ready than simply "potential in 5 years time"

The likes of Brayshaw and the Van man are such.

Pertracca, even allowing for injury is a more ready to go than the types espoused by Toumpas.

Theres a reason the Roos/Taylor era of drafting doesn't go for the Toump types and you might take note since this has started we havent gone for kids like Jimmy with any expensive picks.

Im all for developing players but lets get ones that wont ve half way through their careers being giving any dividends.

4 teams with much better lists than us. They all play TEAM footy...and quite successfully. They have the LUXURY of pandering to the "waiting for " types.

We don't we need players that can play NOW...impact NOW

The Toumps effect on game day verges on SFA unfortunately

This isnt a bloody charity ...its football. You need to be competitve. We arent

I agree we need good players in for the here and now. My point is that the best sides are steadfast in their development and show patience.

If we continually cut young players because they aren't playing their best after 3 seasons we will forever be at the bottom of the ladder and we would deserve it.

D-rod is probably a good mentor but surely there'd be someone better out there, get Roosy to pull some strings and get Jude Bolton to teach him how to be a contested ball machine or something

I agree but I know DR and he is a top bloke, great communicator and a very experienced former player who is still in touch with the game. He knows how to talk to the young guys and hopefully will boost Jimmys confidence.

I agree we need good players in for the here and now. My point is that the best sides are steadfast in their development and show patience.

If we continually cut young players because they aren't playing their best after 3 seasons we will forever be at the bottom of the ladder and we would deserve it.

my point is the Toumps arent a priority for us.. Players that can play and impact are

The Oscars are a better bet than Dimitris in that vein.

We've got Toumps..wooped de do if we cant extract value in a trade then were lumped with him until/if he performs as he needs to. Bargain

BB you make a fine argument for drafting ready made players in this year's draft.

But your argument doesn't hold any weight for not giving Toumpas (who is already on our list) further time to develop.

Each year there are a handful of players in the draft who make an immediate, significant impact. Last year we got 2 but unfortunately Petracca was injured.

Regardless of what we agon for, we'll only ever get a couple of new draftees have significant impact while the rest will need time to develop. Toumpas is one of them.

Surely we need a mixture of 'ready to go' players and 'developing' ones. If you think we need more of the former, then if you call for Toumpas to be axed you need to establish what players youthink we can get by trading/sacking Toumpas. If you can't find any, then surely he stays on the 'developing' list.

Edited September 3, 20159 yr by sue

Deanox...how long ?? and at what cost ?

A player is an asset or a liability . Goes to the old chestnut what isnt part of the solution is part of the problem.

My whole view of a team is clinical. I take personality etc totally out of the equation as its useless really in attributing worth.

If a player isnt performing to ability and has possible value if put towards another player who can then to me thats the players worth.

Surely we need a mixture of 'ready to go' players and 'developing' ones. If you think we need more of the former, then if you call for Toumpas to be axed you need to establish what players youthink we can get by trading/sacking Toumpas. If you can't find any, then surely he stays on the 'developing' list.

essentially true Sue. Im sure the club will be looking for trades and the currency ???

I dont need to name players., I'm not privy to all of that info..who knows who is/will be avail.. Thats the clubs job

Deanox...how long ?? and at what cost ?

A player is an asset or a liability . Goes to the old chestnut what isnt part of the solution is part of the problem.

My whole view of a team is clinical. I take personality etc totally out of the equation as its useless really in attributing worth.

If a player isnt performing to ability and has possible value if put towards another player who can then to me thats the players worth.

BB. Taking personality out, what we have is:

A young, highly talented player

Who runs hard

Who trains hard

Has the right attitude and approach

Is a good kick

Is a smart footballer

Who has not, at age 21, put it all together on the field.

There may be reasons why he had not put it together on the field, including:

-Double hip surgery during first preseason

-Thrown to the wolves in his first season in arguably the worst season a club has had in modern football, before he was ready physically or mentally

-Poor quality coach in his first year

-Change in coach/football department at end of first year

-Appendix out in his 2nd year

-A couple of untimely concussions in his third year

He clearly has an issue with confidence in his own abilities which he will need to overcome to make it.

But he had also clearly shown that he had the tools and attributes to make a player at AFL level.

Unless we think we can get better value with a late draft pick (who will younger - and thus less likely to impact in 2016 than Toumpas), there is clearly upside to giving him time to come good.

If he doesn't become a regular best 22 by 2017 he is out the door. But a 4th year is not unreasonable given what we had shown and what some of his obstacles have been.