Resilience - MFC Players V MFC Supporters (Merged Thread)

[Dr. Gonzo 22,487]

Sadly, and I raised this event before, this kind of feels like 2011 redux. It hasn't reached a crescendo yet as it did with 186 nor has anyone come out with a straight out 'sack the coach'. The noise surrounding it however sees eerily familiar.

* A media campaign from those who have criticized us in the past for being administratively unstable over the fact that our rebuild isn't proceeding quickly enough.

* Past greats and former administrators making cliched statements in the media about 'not having a go' and 'aiming for mediocrity'.

* A group of vocal supporters who will not accept any evidence to the contrary and insist that the problem lay exclusively with the coach.

I don't think that anyone is so stupid as to say 'sack Paul Roos right damn now'. There have been calls to put Simon Goodwin in as early as next year with no final year under Roos. That I have seen on here. Let's just suppose that we do do that? Then what? We move Roos on unwillingly (regardless of his pay packet, don't think for a second he would stay on if he were demoted) and we then again alienate the playing group and split the club into factions again: the pro Roos camp vs. the anti Roos camp. That then filters down to the various groupings around the football club (staff, coteries, hangers on etc). Goodwin would then be stuffed before he even took on the big chair. If your plan is to stuff the club, then your mission would be accomplished.

I hope I don't sound like I'm taking a hostile tone with you Doctor as I have a lot of respect for your posts. I read a lot of this piffle (the ridiculously hostile anti Roos stuff, not what you wrote) after the St. Kilda game and was about to break into a rant but I held off. This time though, I can't.

Part of the stuff you read on here is people venting in what they feel is an "anonymous" forum. It is anonymous in as much as individuals are concerned but as a collective we all identify as Melbourne supporters so there is an element of transparency there.

I don't see many similarities with 2011 besides some players still seeming to pick and choose when they can be bothered doing their job. 2011 occurred because of a breakdown between the CEO/board and the FD/players. I don't know the inner workings of the club but it seems those who work there are all on the same page. PJ/Bartlett don't seem the type to tell Roos and co how to suck eggs so I dont see the same issues that caused 186.

[grazman 6,481]

Apologies for the length of the reply, I realise that in an age where the medium is the message, few may feel the inclination to read this, but I didn't have the time to write a shorter response...

I’ve been a bit perplexed at the criticisms of Paul Roos over the last few months. I hope the recent storm in a teacup is not an end to the relative harmony and unity since his appointment and a return to yet another perpetuating cycle of denunciations and recriminations that have been the cornerstone of MFC politics that have existed since the aborted merger. One of the obvious obstacles for Roos to overcome is the expectation that many though the club would be ‘fixed’ after his tenure. I like Paul Gardner and I appreciate his views, but I’m not sure what they add to the debate other than static. I think most of us would have accepted that 7 wins was a modest target, but the rub is that ‘most’ of us aren’t intimately involved in the Footy Department and the process of ‘rebuilding’, so such observations made in isolation are nothing more than more bullets to fire at a coach already under siege. ( if you’re not part of the solution you’re part of the problem) Self-fulfilling prophecies versus realistic appraisals of capablilities – it’s a matter of perspective. Yesterday’s man, outdated game plan, not emotionally invested in the club, process over passion etc. Personally I think Roos is a really strong level-headed character who just says it like it is, but he’s in an unenviable position of being damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t in terms of the statements that he makes about the club and its culture. He has to deal with what I would call the MFC single loop negativity spiral.

Football has often been equated to religion, and certainly there are a lot of similar connotations in terms of faith, salvation. ceremony etc. The problem that exists is its history of false prophets. In my lifetime I’ve seen high priced recruiting failures, failed premiership windows, aborted mergers, tanking fiascos. The veil of negativity that Roos talks about is actually a fog of negativity that has settled on the club, its players (body language and performance) and its supporters (DL meltdowns for example). As a long time follower of the Dees I now expect us to lose the very few games we are favourites to win, because in recent years this has become the norm and the norm influences the expectation. Being a Melbourne supporter is a maniacal obsession where the high’s (such as beating Geelong) are irrationally high and the lows (losing to GWS last year and Essendon/Carlton this year) are unbearably low for having believed in the false dawn the highs had previously offered. Like most religions we’re left with only two spiritual alternatives, become godless or convert to another religion. Neither holds much appeal for most, so we lapse until we once again we receive a new Messiah. Roo’s has slipped from the pedestal of being the Messiah (only the Messiah would claim not to be the Messiah) to having feet of clay (he’s a witch- burn him!). He’s subjected to scrutiny and criticism, which in terms of process is both fair and reasonable in terms of accountability, but in terms of outcome I think has left him bewildered and unable to accept to the unhealthy cynicism of the average Melbourne supporter. I for one didn’t take offence to his comments, but the club will not find a solution to its cultural woes until it addresses the two interrelated parts of the problem.

The first is the playing list. This is about realised talent and the unrealised potential which contribute to both individual perceptions and wider expectations. The discontinuity here is that such perceptions and expectations are shaped by both bias and incomplete information – do we really know how ‘bad’ bad is and how much still needs to be done in relation to addressing bad habits? The other aspect of the playing list is the actual player attitudes and culture. Any cultural change is long and difficult, it requires clear direction and strong leadership and the playing culture itself is simply a sub-set of the larger MFC culture. Players are affected by supporters attitudes and beliefs and this is what Roos was hinting at. Poor performances result in hyper-negativity from supporters that conditions the playing group to a ‘siege mentality’ where it’s everyman for themselves. Many have argued that it’s the coaches’ responsibility to break this cycle and get the players to play better. I would argue that this isn’t about ‘motivating’ players on game day, this is about reprogramming an entire football club.

The second part of the equation is the single loop negativity spiral. Supporters are both impatient for improvement and unreasonable in many of their expectations* (shaped by their impatience) and thus unsatisfied with the performance of the club, this fuels a reaction by the club in responding to the negativity of its support base in terms of trying to placate and attract new members (because poor clubs don’t win premierships) with the promise of better. Inevitably we move from one coach to the next, from one game plan to the next and from one ‘great white hope’ to the next and arrive back to where we started. Little is done to address the root causes of the issue.

There is a simple answer for this, but simple is not always easy – nor is it simplistic. Breaking the single loop model isn’t just contingent on the club, nor is it just about the supporters, it’s about both working towards the same end. The club has to start winning games again and as supporters we need to be far more circumspect in the way we treat the club we ‘support’ and its representatives. I deplore and Barry Braveheart glib observations and bile directed at the players on this site, there’s nothing to be gained by it. It only perpetuates the endless negative cycle of ‘the club is stuffed and here’s why’. I believe the club is improving and some may disagree, but I see that we are beginning to get the necessary skill sets and knowledge into running our football operations and we are starting to identify and recruit talent better. All of these things take time (which we want to speed up) the club is developing and doing is working towards establishing a better culture, there is more to be done, just as there is more ‘supporters’ can do in supporting rather than attacking the club. Just as success breeds success, positivity breeds positivity and negativity, negativity (think of a shark that eating itself). Most organisations relish constructive criticism, no one begrudges people from having opinions, but destructive criticism is never welcome, is seldom useful and rarely makes the perpetrator feel better about themselves. As far as possible and within the bounds of reasonableness we should aim to be positive about the club (especially when they aren't performing to expectations like last weekend). In the words of Robert Louis Stevenson ‘Share your courage and keep your fears to yourself’ – lest you look like a lightweight. It’s not all about me after all, as REM says ‘Everybody Hurts’ - including believe it or not the coaches and the players.

[rpfc 27,501]

Well said, grazman.

I just really want to move on - no more mention of it from Roos or Jackson - and just look to the last two games and this coming summer where Roos has his last chance to put his last imprimatur on the list.

Getting better will help all that has been spoken about, in fact, it's the only real remedy - not waffling critiques or forced apologies.

Winning games of footy heals all wounds.

Edited August 28, 2015 by rpfc

[nrc73 77]

Just watched 'Roos Views' for this week, noted how he wants his players to 'get angry' and how he'll address this in the off season. I think we have a match made in heaven. If these players need an injection of angry, maybe it's time we put a few players in the boxing ring with some of our angriest supporters every time there's a 10+ goal loss, see what comes of it.

Edited August 28, 2015 by nrc73

[Dr. Mubutu 694]

Just watched 'Roos Views' for this week, noted how he wants his players to 'get angry' and how he'll address this in the off season. I think we have a match made in heaven. If these players need an injection of angry, maybe it's time we put a few players in the boxing ring with some of our angriest supporters every time there's a 10+ goal loss, see what comes of it.

I have no urge to see people beaten up by professional footballers.

[sue 8,445]

Just watched 'Roos Views' for this week, noted how he wants his players to 'get angry' and how he'll address this in the off season. I think we have a match made in heaven. If these players need an injection of angry, maybe it's time we put a few players in the boxing ring with some of our angriest supporters every time there's a 10+ goal loss, see what comes of it.

A lot fewer postings on Demonland.

[Uncle Fester 2,835]

I have no urge to see people beaten up by professional footballers.

I was thinking the same thing. I'm not getting into the ring with Hogan.

[Earl Hood 5,789]

Negative... sure. I expect the worst but hope for the best. Being positive has been mercilessly beaten out of me since the mid 70's...

But I'm not going away or microwaving memberships or anything like that. The club is under my skin and it's either them or nothing. I suspect that every true Demon feels much like I do.

Negative yes sometimes but mostly bewildered at how 22 full time professionally drilled players cannot show up for the first half, three games in a row. All we are asking is to chase, tackle, harass and get to contests, that doesn't take great talent, just endeavour and appetite for the contest. Why do we go missing with no intensity against good sides, against poor sides, we don't play favourites?

I am flummoxed and I think Roos is as well. That is when he comes out with the scarred players comment or the veil of negativity in the club that has morphed into our negativity. In other words he can't explain these collective mental no shows at games either so he starts talking about ingrained culture problems. In the end it must have a lot to do with on the field leadership or specifically lack of it now not some scars incurred in past years and certainly not negative fans.

[Roger Mellie 3,511]

This is from a Tiger Supporter on 'Big Footy' dropping in to the Melbourne board. There are interesting parallels:

Hey guys,

I think there is merit to the causal framework Paul Roos hinted at this week (with poorly chosen words). I experienced it with my club 6-7 years ago with Terry Wallace and 25 years of failure.

Paul is right when he says the negative expectation from the bottom feeds up and affects the players' psyche. However, they shouldn't blame supporters, as they've been loyal and are merely reacting to what has been dished up on-field for 10 years. It's not your job to set the culture.

And therein lies the vicious cycle.

The team losses, the supporters develop accurate, realistic expectations... and these filter up and over time make it even more difficult for the club to break the cycle. It's a negative feedback loop and it's nobody's individual fault - it accumulates gradually over time in response to reality.

How to break the cycle? I don't think Paul Roos has the answer. He can identify the problems though, which is a start.

At my club, there were a string of moments around late 2009/2010 that changed the way I perceive the club. I can distinctly remember one very powerful shift in my own personal mindset that was a result of action taken by Brendon Gale:

- In 2010, with 9 years of no finals and we were labelled worse than Fitzroy and had 9 losses to start the season with a percentage of like 47%... he came out and said "we will not be asking for a Priority Pick at the end of the year. We're responsible for our positions and it's 100% our responsibility to get us out of this mess".

I was like what?! Surely we deserve a PP!! We're the worst performed team over 25 years!!
I also felt a little warm at the boldness of that "we need no help" attitude. Over time, it paid off more than some PP kid.

Another thing that caused a shift to my thinking was this:

- Gale consistently went at great lengths to NOT blame the past admins/coaches. He gave heartfelt thanks to everyone who has tried to help our club return to glory, acknowledging they didn't have the environmental conditions to get the best out of themselves or others, but their effort was to be applauded. He didn't mention names (never said "Terry Wallace" publicly after 2010) and made supporters feel more appreciation and understanding towards those who have failed us. (Eg, Terry Wallace had to paint the walls himself, cos we couldn't afford a painter... "our fault" as a club, not his).

Comments on forums changed in tone after this... but only gradually.

Here is an example of how difficult it is to change the bottom-up expectations of supporters:

- When we made finals in 2013 for the first time in 12 years. In the lead up, I remember everyone on forums was freaking out about us somehow finding a way to lose and embarrass ourselves and miss finals at any moment. Even when we were 3 games clear with 5 rounds to go, literally 95% of the supporters were refusing to say we're in. Our captain continually spoke in a defeatist way to the media (partly to stop the media saying we're getting ahead of ourselves) by saying "we won't even think about finals until it's mathematically impossible to miss".

- In 2014, at 3-10, we all thought the sky had fallen. It was same old Richmond. Sack Dimma, cleanout the list, tank for picks, start again. Then we beat a bottom 4 team. Damn! We went up a spot on the ladder... then we beat the Giants. Damn! Dropped another spot higher on the ladder. Then we beat Carlton, North, Crows, etc and we stopped caring about the draft picks and just enjoyed the winning feeling for a change. Then we beat Sydney in Sydney for 9 straight to make finals. Wow. That was the moment. That was the moment a lot of people at the club said "I'm never doubting this club again".

- In 2015, we started at 2-4 but you know what? We'll be right. Most likely make finals, but won't make top 4 damn. Then we play unbeaten Freo in Round 10 and you know what? I tipped Richmond to win. We won. Beat Sydney, Hawthorn, etc... great, and so we should. Spewing we're just making finals and miss out on top 4 by 1 game. Go into every game expecting to win or compete now. On the forums, there's maybe 10% of posters still freaking out about missing the finals by losing every game by 20 goals and missing out on percentage... but they're now shouted down by the vast majority who have a belief in the club to say "of course we'll make it stop being negative".

The shift has been enormous... but it took 5 years, and even now there's hints of it by the minority. After 4 years with Dimma/Gale, it took a miracle 9 game winning streak to make finals to change our minds somewhat (and even then, not completely). This required a 'get ourselves out of it' mentality that didn't reward a draft pick culture. Most posters complained about all those meaningless wins and meaningless finals loss to Port last year. It's taken until our third finals series in a row this year to stop most of that... and it could come rushing back if we miss next year. After we lost 1 game to West Coast in Round 12 this year, I saw about half our supporters reverting back to their old negative ways. But then we kept winning, and they reacted with strengthened confidence.

It won't be a quick fix for you.

Ultimately, the fans merely react to the actions of the club.

The solution MUST come from the club. It starts before you start winning, so it requires the club to come out with a plan to subside negative expectations/blame coming from supporters for 2-3 years, to enable the players a chance to break the negative feedback loop and have a greater chance of winning. Paul Roos was supposed to give you guys that hope.

He succeeded on the back of his reputation early on, but where he's failed is with his constant distancing of himself from the club, therefore breaking the following golden rules:

- Demonstrate shared responsibility
- Encourage supporters to applaud those who tried and failed in the past (no blame-shifting to the past)
- United mindset that accepts responsibility on behalf of others (like the psychological concept of Jesus Christ dying on behalf of humanity to absolve everyone of our sins... lol...), the leaders must be willing to unfairly accept disproportionate blame in order to free everyone else of the burden!

Sorry for the lengthy post. I'm just posting casually, but I do have serious ideas about this topic and hope you enjoyed reading the experiences of a similar club that seems to have finally broken their cycle.
Read more at http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/mfc-victims.1109053/page-4#m84msTIOSKEyL3Dw.99

[Sir Why You Little 34,583]

^^ ^^ Good read...

[daisycutter 28,581]

^^ ^^ Good read...

does that mean you'll now put the past behind you?

including 186 and schwabby?

lol

[Sir Why You Little 34,583]

does that mean you'll now put the past behind you?

including 186 and schwabby?

lol

only after all the culprits have been moved on...