players that need their coach to come in and tell them they have to win and give them that drive to win are not very committed players. Unfortunately some of those players dropped off in games that we should have won, We need committed players who want to go out and play their guts out for the Red and Blue. Players who listen to their coach and try to follow instructions. Then we will win 12 or more games in a year and we will play finals.

  On 09/09/2015 at 03:28, Chris said:

You talk about how a legendary coach can't get the players playing for four weeks. This is a problem, agreed, but you seem to think it shouldn't exist, then you name all the young players who can do it but seem to ignore that that may be due to Roos, not despite him. It also points that this particular issue may be due to past expectations and issues with past cultures the older players have come through. This may take time to solve but you expect that you magical coach can solve this and should have.

In other posts you do seem to think that all problems should not exist and it is Roos' fault that they do, you expect too much too fast.

Please stop making crap up and attributing it to me.

If you care to read my posts we have a legendary coach two years into a 3y contract. How is it that he cannot get the team to turn up before half time 4 weeks running? Pretty legitimate question I would have thought. He even went as far to say that he didn't know what was going on and that he thought the players had checked out early on their end of season trip to Bali. He them obliquely blamed supporters for being negative. He sounded like he had no idea about how to fix the problem.

I have never said all our prblems should be solved and you are a goose for suggesting I did say that. I simply demand effort from our players. You should too. When I don't see effort 4 weeks running I question the coach. But if you are happy for him to cruise along and the players not put in that's great for you. Its not for me.

  On 09/09/2015 at 05:46, jnrmac said:

Please stop making crap up and attributing it to me.

If you care to read my posts we have a legendary coach two years into a 3y contract. How is it that he cannot get the team to turn up before half time 4 weeks running? Pretty legitimate question I would have thought. He even went as far to say that he didn't know what was going on and that he thought the players had checked out early on their end of season trip to Bali. He them obliquely blamed supporters for being negative. He sounded like he had no idea about how to fix the problem.

I have never said all our prblems should be solved and you are a goose for suggesting I did say that. I simply demand effort from our players. You should too. When I don't see effort 4 weeks running I question the coach. But if you are happy for him to cruise along and the players not put in that's great for you. Its not for me.

You seem to lack an understanding of the word seem. As I said you seem to think that all problems should not exist. This may not be your position but it is how it comes across, you SEEM to think this.

You have also put words in my mouth, I on numerous occasions have said that the lack of effort is an issue, as it clearly is, I just don't fall for the golden bullet approach from the savior coach. It has to be player driven if it is to be sustainable. Roos didn't also sound like he had no idea how to solve it, he said he didn't know as he didn't know the cause. He also said he would work to find it out. Honest, up front and realistic, unless of course the coach should immediately have all the answer and solutions that is.

  On 09/09/2015 at 05:46, jnrmac said:

How is it that he cannot get the team to turn up before half time 4 weeks running?

It's a question for the players, not Roos.

As I posted previously here (sigh ...), do you seriously think that players like Hodge, Riewoldt or Selwood need their coach to get them "up" each week?

  On 08/09/2015 at 05:58, binman said:

One thing that seemed not to have received much comment is that bar our win over lions (which we won by 15?) our wins have all been pretty comfortable. Which given we beat some OK teams must be a positive

That fifteen point win is bigger than it looks in the scheme of things too, as they only kicked 4 goals in total.

Questioning Roos is fine. To say we haven't improved is ridiculous.

  On 09/09/2015 at 06:26, bing181 said:

It's a question for the players, not Roos.

As I posted previously here (sigh ...), do you seriously think that players like Hodge, Riewoldt or Selwood need their coach to get them "up" each week?

That point just goes through to the keeper it would seem.

Roos can only do so much to establish a culture. He is very big on player empowerment and for the playing group to set leadership standards. It's disappointing but our senior group have yet to take advantage of this.

For Roos to take on that kind of burden to get the players motivated every week would be draining on an individual but also counterproductive.

Football has changed from what it was pre 2000. Back then, the coach was supposed to see all and know all. While the head man is more accountable than most and drives the overall ethos of the group, it's impossible for him to insure that every person is up and about for every single match.

  On 09/09/2015 at 07:00, AdamFarr said:

That fifteen point win is bigger than it looks in the scheme of things too, as they only kicked 4 goals in total.

Questioning Roos is fine. To say we haven't improved is ridiculous.

Exactly. The last sentence of your point seems to have caused some angst for some. It seems that if you say we have improved, you are glossing over the shortcomings of the team and of PR himself (more likely we just refuse to join a lynch mob).

Some say the glass is half full. Some say the glass is half empty. It's hard to argue with someone who insists the glass is actually a dragon!

  On 09/09/2015 at 00:50, Hulkamania Brother said:

Nahh... Thank christ we have him or we'd be in Tassie by now!

understand the sentiment, but a team in tassie is not dependent on finding a club to transfer

it's much more about long term economic viability

there is also no new market share to capture

  On 09/09/2015 at 07:00, AdamFarr said:

That fifteen point win is bigger than it looks in the scheme of things too, as they only kicked 4 goals in total.

Questioning Roos is fine. To say we haven't improved is ridiculous.

we won by 4goals

it was still a putrid performance that doesn't deserve a 'tick' for Roos

  On 09/09/2015 at 10:11, Curry & Beer said:

we won by 4goals

it was still a putrid performance that doesn't deserve a 'tick' for Roos

It was a stale and inert second half.

It wasn't 'putrid.'

Paul roos is rebuilding the team the right way, he has improved the team by 100% in his first season in charge, and improved the team by 75% in the second season, and if he improves the side by 75% next season then the team will have 11+ wins, that's what's important in the end of the day, now for the game plan 6 out of 7 wins where good wins, and the Brisbane win was a good defensive win, the wins in this season is when the players execute roos game plan not the loses, so its not the game plan that has faults it's the execution of the game plan.

  On 09/09/2015 at 06:26, bing181 said:

It's a question for the players, not Roos.

As I posted previously here (sigh ...), do you seriously think that players like Hodge, Riewoldt or Selwood need their coach to get them "up" each week?

The players were not performing for 4 weeks running. The coach had no idea what to do or how to fix it and you don't think that is a coaching problem? Hmmm. You don't believe its the coaches job to get those players playing to an acceptable level each week?

And congratulations for working out that some players are self-motivated. There are 44 players on a list that all require different levels of motivation. If its not the coaches job to get those players selected motivated and playing as a team whose job is it?

Your view appears to be we don't need a coach except to pick a new list every year. Because they don't get players to 'turn up' each week - that is the players job. And if the players don't do it we just delist them and get a new bunch next year. Great theory.

  On 10/09/2015 at 02:15, jnrmac said:

The players were not performing for 4 weeks running. The coach had no idea what to do or how to fix it and you don't think that is a coaching problem? Hmmm. You don't believe its the coaches job to get those players playing to an acceptable level each week?

And congratulations for working out that some players are self-motivated. There are 44 players on a list that all require different levels of motivation. If its not the coaches job to get those players selected motivated and playing as a team whose job is it?

Your view appears to be we don't need a coach except to pick a new list every year. Because they don't get players to 'turn up' each week - that is the players job. And if the players don't do it we just delist them and get a new bunch next year. Great theory.

Roos admitted this was a problem, it is a problem, but to expect it to be fixed by a snap of his fingers, which you seem to expect (note SEEM) is unrealistic.

It is also not the coaches job to motivate players, the coach is there to put structures in place, teach the players how he wants them to play, and to put a culture in place. Making the players put in effort is in part down to doing the three things above (so in part on the coach) but is mainly on the players.

  On 08/09/2015 at 00:55, jnrmac said:

I have criticised Roos over the effort that our players have put in - particularly over the past 7 weeks.

You simply cannot have the ridiculous 1st quarter efforts that we have had and not sheet that blame home to the coach. He backs his players, fine. But when those players don't perform he rightly should feel heat. There is a consequence of the players playing like that and that is lost respect from supporters, media, sponsors, the AFL etc. The club wears pain of those efforts. There are some here that fell he can't be questioned - on anything. Clearly that is wrong.

We knew the road would be bumpy but the first non-negotiable is effort. Not for one qtr, not for 2 qtrs but for a whole game.

Brayshaw is a good example. He impact has waned over the second half of the season which is to be expected. But his effort has never waned. Puts in for 120 mins a game. That is what supporter want to see. 22 guys putting in like a first year player does. Its not that hard.

To gloss over our poor performances with 'we are better than last year' is just a crap argument that we are sick of hearing.

On Roos:

Has he been good for the club. Absolutely.

Is he paid too much. I CGAF what he is paid.Its irrelevant and secondary to the job he is doing

Is he above criticism. Definitely not.

Are you channeling Kevin Rudd Jnr ??

I stated from the start of the year 7-8 wins would be a pass mark for me. We finished with 7 wins, the year is a pass. Next year Goodwin will start to take over more and more, Roos is there as a transition coach next year and to get the team ready to be taken over by Goodwin.

  On 10/09/2015 at 02:15, jnrmac said:

The coach had no idea what to do or how to fix it and you don't think that is a coaching problem?

You have to establish the first part of your sentence before you get to the second part.

Which you've failed to do.

  On 10/09/2015 at 06:39, bing181 said:

You have to establish the first part of your sentence before you get to the second part.

Which you've failed to do.

Not to mention that he did apparently fix it in the last match. Now maybe that last win was because of factors other than the coach, but one could say that about the previous month too.

  On 09/09/2015 at 11:50, rpfc said:

It was a stale and inert second half.

It wasn't 'putrid.'

That Lions win was in the bottom handful of performances for the year. We were god awful. We just happened to be playing an even worse side at arguably their lowest ebb.

I've never taken less pleasure from a win. It wasn't ugly. It was grotesque.

But it's still four points. Bank it and put the tape in the bin.

  On 10/09/2015 at 07:34, P-man said:

That Lions win was in the bottom handful of performances for the year. We were god awful. We just happened to be playing an even worse side at arguably their lowest ebb.

I've never taken less pleasure from a win. It wasn't ugly. It was grotesque.

But it's still four points. Bank it and put the tape in the bin.

Bulldogs at Etihad, Haw, WCE in Darwin, Carlton, Freo at the G, Port in Alice, Essendon...

How big are your hands?

Game was dead at half time but I am not going to hang my team for not finishing off. They needed to do more, but enough is better than par.

  On 10/09/2015 at 12:54, rpfc said:

Bulldogs at Etihad, Haw, WCE in Darwin, Carlton, Freo at the G, Port in Alice, Essendon...

How big are your hands?

Game was dead at half time but I am not going to hang my team for not finishing off. They needed to do more, but enough is better than par.

so listing a bunch of other horrific performances is supposed to improve the Lions performance and strengthen the case for Roos is it

I don't get what the debate is about. The last several years have taught everyone a single lesson: hold your leaders to account. Questions should be asked of Paul Roos. Every year, regardless of performance. This year, we've seen different game plans implemented inconsistently. Players picking and choosing. Selection decisions that appear inconsistent. Players in favour and then out of favour. Leaders doing well and then stinking. All these things might well have good answers to them, but we are allowed to see them and it is our responsibility to question.

If you are a supporter with blind faith, you are not a supporter. You are believer - a disciple. I have no time for blind faith. Same level of respect as blind drunk.

  On 10/09/2015 at 21:50, timD said:

I don't get what the debate is about. The last several years have taught everyone a single lesson: hold your leaders to account. Questions should be asked of Paul Roos. Every year, regardless of performance. This year, we've seen different game plans implemented inconsistently. Players picking and choosing. Selection decisions that appear inconsistent. Players in favour and then out of favour. Leaders doing well and then stinking. All these things might well have good answers to them, but we are allowed to see them and it is our responsibility to question.

If you are a supporter with blind faith, you are not a supporter. You are believer - a disciple. I have no time for blind faith. Same level of respect as blind drunk.

I guess my original statement 'anyone who thinks we haven't improved from the time Neeld was coach is a peanut' was one of the statements that got a few worked up. To be honest, TimD, I'm not sure why some chose to contest that statement!

I don't really have an issue with criticism but I supposed that criticism needs to be balanced and shouldn't venture into the realm of being ridiculous. The tone one makes their criticism in is also important.

Criticism for the sake of criticism is also annoying.

Some of the stuff on the game plan is neither here nor there. I feel that Roos just doesn't have the cattle right now to pull it off.

Criticizing inconsistency in performance is valid. I don't think it's fair for Roos to carry the can entirely on that front. The CLUB as a working whole needs to look at what is going wrong there and there is a possibility there may be more to it than simply 'not having a go'.

In hindsight, and I got a bit defensive about it at the time, the stuff about 'negativity' (while I felt it had more than a kernel of truth in it) was just silly to put in the public domain as Roos was either going to put everyone in the club off side OR all your paid up members. What was going to be achieved by saying it (besides getting some kind of pyrrhic victory over the clowns who wrote in after the Brisbane victory telling him they would have rather lost than won like that)? Just terrible PR.

I sincerely hope that the majority of demon supporters hold similar sentiments to myself. Paul Roos was primarily employed to rebuild a club that had stagnated horribly for many years for many various reasons (articulated on these forums ad nauseum) ......to get 7 wins was a bonus for me but you would have to be blinkered not to see the quality & promise of the players we have coming through & we still have this years draft in which I feel we will complete the turnover of our list. He has only had two years to work on this club that has been the laughing stock & whipping boy of the league for years. We will achieve several more wins next season but the full impact of what Roos has achieved will be realised down the track when we once again have a club that we can be proud off. I understand how desperate we are for success & if paul Roos had been at the helm for six or so years (see Hardwick) & not won a final then go for your lives but until then let's enjoy the rebuild of our club.....the rising star winner & the blossoming of these talented young players that we will see next year. Paul Roos 's ethos came straight from Jesse Hogans mouth...." It's not so much about talent ....it's the hunger & the hate of losing that's important" & that's exactly the type of player Roos has recruited.

  On 10/09/2015 at 13:45, Curry & Beer said:

so listing a bunch of other horrific performances is supposed to improve the Lions performance and strengthen the case for Roos is it

I am not defending Roos, I am defending the result against the Lions that was won half through the second quarter and the game dribbled away as we met them at their level after that. Sometimes you get bogged down, but the key thing being they won with that suffocating first half.

Tottenham Hotspur fans always talk about winning the 'right way' - they should let their team win ugly too - then they might actually win something...

  On 10/09/2015 at 23:33, rpfc said:

I am not defending Roos, I am defending the result against the Lions that was won half through the second quarter and the game dribbled away as we met them at their level after that. Sometimes you get bogged down, but the key thing being they won with that suffocating first half.

Tottenham Hotspur fans always talk about winning the 'right way' - they should let their team win ugly too - then they might actually win something...

My question about that is: when we do win ugly, what do we do? Insist we reschedule the match 2 days later so we can come out and play more attractive football? Insist that Brisbane magically find better players so we can play against better quality opposition? You can only play against the opposition provided.

P-Man was basically right. We didn't play well but we won. Put the tape in the bin and move on happy that at least we got the four points.

Ball movement and decision making.

With the introduction of Hogan and Garlett, Melbourne reaped an extra 84 goals in 2014, yet they only kicked an additional 35 to finish the season with 225. In essence, Melbourne lack "team goals". In 2014 the bottom scoring team of the final 8 kicked 263 goals, while this year it was 273.

Clearly we need more inside 50's. More inside 50's leads to more opportunities for Hogan and others. This year Footscray had 220 more inside 50's. Imagine the opportunities for Hogan and Garlett with an extra 220 inside 50's. We placed 16th in the competition for inside 50's and were only 7 from last placed Brisbane.

We go long when we should go short, short when we should go long, we're fast when we should control the footy and we go slow when we should be quick and direct. I genuinely believe the talent is assembling nicely and it's the coaches job to hone our decision making and ball movement patterns.

It's what's improved Footscray and it's the key to improving Melbourne.