Some serious questions asked about Paul Roos ...

[bing181 9,219]

Great clubs play to win.

We're light years away from being a great club. Perhaps by the time Jack Viney is captain and Hogan, Brayshaw and A Nother (Salem? Petracca?) are AA, we might be, but until then ...

[McQueen 17,864]

The improvement is real

There will be down days for a while but the trend is moving upward. Time to stop the overreactions

Says the bloke who will not take any further interest in the MFC until trade and draft periods.

[Demonsone 2,037]

Below a copy of an article on MFC site...

Seven to eight wins would be a considerable effort, given just two years ago, the Demons had two victories to their name at the season’s end, after coming off their fifth worst season in VFL/AFL history.

That’s a timely reminder of how low Melbourne was. Progress has been made and the season upon reflection will show that – even if there are frustrations along the way. But the show must go on.

[titan_uranus 25,014]

Last year we should have won 10 games considering the position we were in over 10 matches. Losing the final 10 games wouldn't have been as damning had we won 8 games prior to that (Port, Bulldogs, Saints, Suns, who we all led at one point in the last). Throw in Port again, Lions, Dogs again. That's 7 games we were in very winnable positions in.

That hasn't been the case this year.

Of 12 loses, we have only been in it 4 times: Adelaide, Collingwood, St Kilda and Essendon. The other 8 games, we were never a chance, and the loses against the Saints and Bombers were disappointing in the way that they should have been wins. We went from competing in 2014, to disappointing in 2015.

While I agree I'd have liked us to have been closer in some of the losses, you've cherry picked numbers a bit here.

You haven't mentioned the GWS game where we led by 33 points or the Port game where we led by 24. You haven't mentioned the North game where we fought back strongly with some of the best football we've played since maybe 2006.

You haven't mentioned that, despite still having a couple of extraordinarily rubbish 'hoodoos' hanging over our heads, we've knocked off some big ones too.

While you could cut the season up the way you have, you could equally look at it and say that there have only been a handful of the losses where at no point did we play AFL-quality football (Fremantle, Sydney, Hawthorn, the second St Kilda game). Even the Dogs game for a quarter we flipped it on its head and managed to dominate (that's not some sort of excuse for a 98 point loss, it's more an observation that that was another game where, at some point, we had the game on our terms and played better football than our opponent).

So IMO that's 15 of the 19 games where we've dominated our opponent at some point during the game, if not for all of it then for portions.

Next year, it's about making those portions into wholes. We've shown we can do it this year. We can't yet do it for four quarters, or weekly, but we can at least do it.

Don't agree. Perhaps he's frustrated, but struggling implies that he's not doing what he could/should, which I don't believe is the case.

Not sure why people keep looking at Roos here - until we get some decent players, who then get a decent time learning to play together, there isn't going to be any miracle turnaround, no matter who the coach is.

Well then that's what I'm implying - there is a lot he is doing right, but there are things he clearly is underperforming in.

It's possible to think Roos is doing a good job and that there are areas he can improve on, you know.

Edited August 17, 2015 by titan_uranus

[JimmyNP 174]

People questioning Roos have got to be kidding themselves.

You simply cannot argue that since he has come on board WE HAVE IMPROVED. We have won two more games then last year with 3 rounds to go and hopefully by beating Carlton next week that will be another win on the board.

Do people honestly think we were going to beat a full strength bulldogs (barring liberatore) given the form their in especially at Etihad, whilst playing for a finals birth whilst there is 3 games left knowing you won't play finals?

You simply cannot question Roosy when we HAVE FACTUALLY improved since he has taken over. It's a long road, and for god's sake if you're questioning the direction and potential of the list with Petracca, Trengove, Van Danberg, Tyson, Salem, another top 10 pick with the development of McCartney then you're in another world.

Onwards and upwards.

[SaberFang 7,151]

Considering the past month, I think the players deserve the benefit of the doubt coming off the flu.

I bet nobody here performs at their best going into work when they're not that well.

[rjay 24,919]

Tosh

The dogs have had to contend with worse in the past 3 yrs.

We were leading in the last qtr in at least 8 games last year. Its not a stretch to win 6 this year. You are too soft on Roos. The consultant isn't getting the best out of the players by a big margin.

But the inconsistency is the killer. And the lack of a cohesive modern game plan.

...and don't forget Oxley

[Gator 17,332]

It's not unusual for youngish sides to cop beltings near the end of the season when they're reaching for the finish line and finals are beyond them. Conversely it wouldn't surprise me if they perform well this week against Carlton. It's the consistency of effort that will allude them.

But what annoys me is Roos saying in his post match presser, "I've only been here 18 months". No, it's nearly 2 years and stop distancing yourself from the football club. Stop the constant referencing of the past; whether it's by inference or design.

[praha 11,240]

While I agree I'd have liked us to have been closer in some of the losses, you've cherry picked numbers a bit here.

You haven't mentioned the GWS game where we led by 33 points or the Port game where we led by 24. You haven't mentioned the North game where we fought back strongly with some of the best football we've played since maybe 2006.

You haven't mentioned that, despite still having a couple of extraordinarily rubbish 'hoodoos' hanging over our heads, we've knocked off some big ones too.

While you could cut the season up the way you have, you could equally look at it and say that there have only been a handful of the losses where at no point did we play AFL-quality football (Fremantle, Sydney, Hawthorn, the second St Kilda game). Even the Dogs game for a quarter we flipped it on its head and managed to dominate (that's not some sort of excuse for a 98 point loss, it's more an observation that that was another game where, at some point, we had the game on our terms and played better football than our opponent).

So IMO that's 15 of the 19 games where we've dominated our opponent at some point during the game, if not for all of it then for portions.

Next year, it's about making those portions into wholes. We've shown we can do it this year. We can't yet do it for four quarters, or weekly, but we can at least do it.

Well then that's what I'm implying - there is a lot he is doing right, but there are things he clearly is underperforming in.

It's possible to think Roos is doing a good job and that there are areas he can improve on, you know.

So basically we went from competing for whole matches, to competing for 1 maybe 2 quarters, letting the opposition bang on 7-12 straight goals, and losing by 40-60 points.

Right. Gotcha. Selective.

The North game was won and lost in the first quarter. At the end of the season they started off flat. No excuse. Same against the Dogs.

Their losses this year have been bigger hits to confidence than most losses last year. Our wins are better this year but our losses are worse. Consider we have lost two games by 100 and more games by more than 50 this year.

The gap between best and worst is GREATER than last year because they have both grown.

Only Melbourne somehow gets better while also getting worse.

Edited August 17, 2015 by praha

[jackaub 1,402]

Eade lost the players as he always ends up doing.

Roos first priority was to restore the psyche of the club and I believe he is succeeding, as evidenced by the re-signings of some important players. He has established a great football dept and put a succession plan in place to create some stability.

The recruiting has been first class and we probably will end up with 7 - 8 wins this year.

Not a bad 18 months work IMO.

Restore the Psyche"" surely you are kidding the poor habits and lack of effort is starting to effect those who have recently joined the club

Roos hasnt restored anything. The prevailing attitutudes habits and Psyche is killing Roos and his ability to effect the playing group

[Delusional demon 82 1,197]

I think we cant really assess roosys performance until at least end of next year (to be honest it will be in 3-4 years time as frustrating as the last 8 years have been I still think we are on the right (yet slow and patient) track for sustained improved performance, not just shooting up the ladder for one year with a ganeplan only to fall back down (look at Port and watch the bulldogs once teams work out how to better deal with their running game next year) we want to ingrain a winning culture like sydney, geelong, hawks etc where we're consistently contending. This all comes back to strong club culture and having on field leaders which we haven't had anything close to since 2008. I think the main reason st kilda and dogs seem ahead of us now is their +30 yr old leaders are leading and this is where our current inconsistencies arise. This comp is so hard to win and what seperates pbly 3rd from 10th is more to do with what's between the players ears their intensity & confidence. Roos was brought in not to fast track a rebuild but to get it right off field and create a consistent winning and on field leadership culture. Goodwin (and us) will reap the benefits of the last 2 years ...

[jackaub 1,402]

I think we cant really assess roosys performance until at least end of next year (to be honest it will be in 3-4 years time as frustrating as the last 8 years have been I still think we are on the right (yet slow and patient) track for sustained improved performance, not just shooting up the ladder for one year with a ganeplan only to fall back down (look at Port and watch the bulldogs once teams work out how to better deal with their running game next year) we want to ingrain a winning culture like sydney, geelong, hawks etc where we're consistently contending. This all comes back to strong club culture and having on field leaders which we haven't had anything close to since 2008. I think the main reason st kilda and dogs seem ahead of us now is their +30 yr old leaders are leading and this is where our current inconsistencies arise. This comp is so hard to win and what seperates pbly 3rd from 10th is more to do with what's between the players ears their intensity & confidence. Roos was brought in not to fast track a rebuild but to get it right off field and create a consistent winning and on field leadership culture. Goodwin (and us) will reap the benefits of the last 2 years ...

Yet to see any eveidence of "a consistent winning and on fileld leadership culture". In fact it's demonstratively far worse than its ever been.

[Pates 9,660]

No questions need to be asked about Paul Roos. He's got one year to go on his contract, over 2016 Goodwin will start to take more responsibility to ensure a smooth transition. For once the coaching caper isn't something we need to be worried about.

What is clear this year is that we have attempted to get more of a running and attacking style going, the negative to that is that the players clearly still haven't been able to master the two way running that is the standard for any top 8 team. The Bulldogs showed exactly what it was against us, when we had the ball the controlled the areas we wanted to kick to and when they recovered the ball, BANG every dogs player was sprinting to be involved in the attacking play.

I have said it all year the 7-8 wins is where I think we are at. I want Roos to absolutely drill it into the players heads that this week is not an easy game, prepare as if you are taking on Hawthorn and desperately want to win this game.

[Pates 9,660]

Yet to see any eveidence of "a consistent winning and on fileld leadership culture". In fact it's demonstratively far worse than its ever been.

100% disagree with you there. It's far better than what it was last year, it's in a totally different ballpark to what it was under Neeld, and I reckon it's better than at our best under Bailey.

[praha 11,240]

100% disagree with you there. It's far better than what it was last year, it's in a totally different ballpark to what it was under Neeld, and I reckon it's better than at our best under Bailey.

#normalisation

[Pates 9,660]

#normalisation

Not sure what you're hashtagging but if you're saying it's taken about 5 years to get back to where we were then yeah. I agree. This is an area that not only have we been poor in but consistently gone backwards, just another area that Roos has essentially had to build from the ground up.

[Straight Sets Simon 23,113]

Goodwin will take the coaching on match day in 2016.

Fact or opinion?

[jnrmac 20,060]

People questioning Roos have got to be kidding themselves.

You simply cannot argue that since he has come on board WE HAVE IMPROVED. We have won two more games then last year with 3 rounds to go and hopefully by beating Carlton next week that will be another win on the board.

Do people honestly think we were going to beat a full strength bulldogs (barring liberatore) given the form their in especially at Etihad, whilst playing for a finals birth whilst there is 3 games left knowing you won't play finals?

You simply cannot question Roosy when we HAVE FACTUALLY improved since he has taken over. It's a long road, and for god's sake if you're questioning the direction and potential of the list with Petracca, Trengove, Van Danberg, Tyson, Salem, another top 10 pick with the development of McCartney then you're in another world.

Onwards and upwards.

Not sure if you had noticed we had beaten them twice this year AND have their last coach as one of our assistants.

To lose by 98 points is an absolute disgrace and back to the Neeld dark ages. I don't think our improvement is as cut and dried as you say (ie: we have won 2 more games). And Roos' match day coaching has been highly questionable.

I still don't know what our game plan is. We supposedly sorted out our defence last year yet after 20 rounds we have had 1781 pts kicked against us compared to last year 1614 points. Is that improvement? Is there any consistency there? Yes, we have kicked 200pts more and you could argue that Garlett and Hogan are largely responsible for that (having kicked 487pts between them).

Players still don't know how to play whatever game plan we are supposed to be playing. I'd be pretty sure Roos isn't telling em to play the way they played on the weekend so you'd have to say there is something lost in the message. That is largely the coaches fault however you look at it.

[jnrmac 20,060]

Yet to see any eveidence of "a consistent winning and on fileld leadership culture". In fact it's demonstratively far worse than its ever been.

Yep

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

I still don't know what our game plan is.

Well, I guess that means we must not have one.

Sack Roos! Sack the list! Booo-urns

Edited August 18, 2015 by Mad_Melbourne

[Chris 2,892]

Not sure if you had noticed we had beaten them twice this year AND have their last coach as one of our assistants.

To lose by 98 points is an absolute disgrace and back to the Neeld dark ages. I don't think our improvement is as cut and dried as you say (ie: we have won 2 more games). And Roos' match day coaching has been highly questionable.

I still don't know what our game plan is. We supposedly sorted out our defence last year yet after 20 rounds we have had 1781 pts kicked against us compared to last year 1614 points. Is that improvement? Is there any consistency there? Yes, we have kicked 200pts more and you could argue that Garlett and Hogan are largely responsible for that (having kicked 487pts between them).

Players still don't know how to play whatever game plan we are supposed to be playing. I'd be pretty sure Roos isn't telling em to play the way they played on the weekend so you'd have to say there is something lost in the message. That is largely the coaches fault however you look at it.

You are not looking at this as a complete picture. Last year we were purely focused on defence, we had no offence. This explains why we had less points scored against last year, and more points for this year. If you look a little deeper this also explains the other issues you and Praha have bought up.

If we play full defense we can stay in games, but we have no offence in order to win them. This is why we were closer in more games last year, we could stop them scoring but we couldn't score ourselves. This year we have tried to add the offence, if you watch you can see them try the fast free flowing rebounding game regularly (look at Salems goal against the dons last year as the first real evidence I saw of it), they just currently aren't very good at it and tend to turn it over, this leads to easier scoring for the opposition so we lose by more. There are two answers to to lose by less, focus purely on defence again or get better at offence, there is only one answer to winning more though and that is finding the balance between defence and offence, something we haven't done yet and something that will cause some pain while we work it out.

Praha keeps saying normalisation. It is great that we are now in the realm of normalisation, this is actually proof of us improving as we were in some other realm of absolute crap just over two years ago.

[chook fowler 19,458]

Restore the Psyche"" surely you are kidding the poor habits and lack of effort is starting to effect those who have recently joined the club

Roos hasnt restored anything. The prevailing attitutudes habits and Psyche is killing Roos and his ability to effect the playing group

Disagree. From what I hear around the club the playing group is very close and want to stay the distance with each other hence the number of good recent re-signings. The list is still not up to scratch and until some depth is achieved there is going to be a lot of inconsistency in performance.

Guess I prefer to see the glass as half full despite unacceptable performances such as occurred on Sunday.

Still rate our chances against Carlton and GWS which would be 8 wins for the season - a reasonable return for our stage of development

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

If we play full defense we can stay in games, but we have no offence in order to win them.

This is a great observation and highlighted the fact last year we showed very little dare to take the game on from half back, which we are doing much more often. The problem with this is that if confidence is down and mistakes are being made then often opposition will put you to the sword, as we saw against Bulldogs.

Last year the game against Collingwood rings to mind, where we held the ball for large periods of the game keeping the scoring low, we never looked like winning due to our inability to score, but we also were always in the game due to the low score we kept collingwood to. So many posters/supporters hated that style of football, yet we have made a transition in the style we are looking to play and now I think players are in a position where they need to adapt better and decidce to lock the ball down (like last year) to stop the flow of goals against. That is the next progression

[DubDee 25,849]

People questioning Roos have got to be kidding themselves.

You simply cannot argue that since he has come on board WE HAVE IMPROVED. We have won two more games then last year with 3 rounds to go and hopefully by beating Carlton next week that will be another win on the board.

Do people honestly think we were going to beat a full strength bulldogs (barring liberatore) given the form their in especially at Etihad, whilst playing for a finals birth whilst there is 3 games left knowing you won't play finals?

You simply cannot question Roosy when we HAVE FACTUALLY improved since he has taken over. It's a long road, and for god's sake if you're questioning the direction and potential of the list with Petracca, Trengove, Van Danberg, Tyson, Salem, another top 10 pick with the development of McCartney then you're in another world.

Onwards and upwards.

after 2013 - possibly the worst season of any team ever - the way was up. anyone would have gotten us to improve. from winning 2 to 4 to 6 is not much improvement

this year has been dissapointing, I refuse to get excited about only losing 16 games for the year. YAY we've improved!

[jackaub 1,402]

Even Roosey's saying this bunch of underperformers cant wait until season 2015 is ended

What does that say about the team culture?

Ohhhhhh I see the whole team want the season to end Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight!